Calling out Slaveboy and MrMagoo

[Boost]

I respect both your opinions on training and this is not intended to flame you, however....

You both stress the need to increase the weight in the lower rep ranges and champion the idea that strength equals size. That is a great, i'm sure it works well for you and MANY others. However WHY DO YOU DISMISS the idea of giant sets, mind muslce connection, slow reps, drop sets or any way of stimulating the muslce apart from the idea of getting strong on a few basic movements?

Guys like Milos have showed incredible results from Giant sets...have you actually tried them? or is it just a mentality that you must get stronger, and the pump is "useless"

Again this is not intended to flame, just wondering what warrants the dismissal of other training methods that don't stress the absolute importance of progressively heavier weight?
 

[MisterMagoo]

it's a combination of a number of things.

1) milos never takes his theories to skinny newbies, they're always applied to IFBB pros or top-level NPC guys who have already built all the muscle they need but now they're looking to "refine", whatever that means. it's incredibly rare that you'll find someone who built themselves up with those methods.

2) progress is impossible to gauge with complex routines based on non-markers like "burn" and "pump". how do you quantify your workout when you have no goals for resistance? if you did your sets easier this week, is it because you accidentally rested a few extra moments or because you got stronger? which of your five exercises in the set do you add weight to?

3) people overcomplicate things in general when the simple formula of "body adapts to task, make task more difficult" is plenty for the vast majority of trainers.

imagine for a moment you want to get good at basketball. specifically you want to improve your three pointer. you could get a ball, hop on the three point line and work on your accuracy. or you could watch a special on the NBA players and adopt their loony methods with tennis balls, tires, and whatever else they use.

only you're not an NBA player. you aren't so advanced that you need to start trying unorthodox methods in order to make those incremental improvements once traditional "grab ball, improve aim" practicing has topped out for you. until you are at that level, not only don't you need to use the elite NBA methods but they'll likely do you no good anyway. this is why many elite WSB trainers shift their exercises every other week but louie says that newer guys shouldn't rotate nearly as frequently.

you starting to get it?

[tonymctones]

I respect both your opinions on training and this is not intended to flame you, however....

You both stress the need to increase the weight in the lower rep ranges and champion the idea that strength equals size. That is a great, i'm sure it works well for you and MANY others. However WHY DO YOU DISMISS the idea of giant sets, mind muslce connection, slow reps, drop sets or any way of stimulating the muslce apart from the idea of getting strong on a few basic movements?

Guys like Milos have showed incredible results from Giant sets...have you actually tried them? or is it just a mentality that you must get stronger, and the pump is "useless"

Again this is not intended to flame, just wondering what warrants the dismissal of other training methods that don't stress the absolute importance of progressively heavier weight?
 

I know this isnt addressed to me but i felt compelled to respond, in my opinion it doesnt matter what your training method is but your goal should be to improve on everyworkout whether it be weight used, reps managed, rest between sets or any number of other factors. That being said I believe that the tried and true method is the best which is increasing the weight. I dont believe that the pump is useless but if your not going up in weight your probably not making the gains you could be even when improving in other areas.

[candidizzle]

boost i only tell you to watch the training videos of each and every professional bodybuilder.

on MDTV they have an "in the trenches" section where they do entire workouts and they do voice overs where they discusss what they are doing and why they are doing it

very god stuff very informational

the mor einformative ones are the ones with evan centaponi, the one with justin harris, the ones with victor marttinez....

if you want some entertainment watch the ones with kai greeen ! hes very fun to listen to

[Boost]

Yea the in the trenches Video series is very informative, by far the best internet video series.

I have read alot of what Milos has to say, and yes he DOES stress that it is the best training method regardless of experience.
I will try giant sets for 5-6 weeks and see what effect they have on my body, hopefully some decent mass gains.

I guess i have the mentality that if there is no DOMS the next day, then i have not stimulated anything, and therefor will not grow.
This is because since i began (about 16 months ago), the muscles which are always sore after the workout are the ones that have grown the most.

I have tried a couple of giant sets and managed to stimualte DOMS in the msucles that are never usually sore for me (shoulders and biceps) and therefor will continue using these Giant sets for all bodyparts and see where i end up.

[tonymctones]

Yea the in the trenches Video series is very informative, by far the best internet video series.

I have read alot of what Milos has to say, and yes he DOES stress that it is the best training method regardless of experience.
I will try giant sets for 5-6 weeks and see what effect they have on my body, hopefully some decent mass gains.

I guess i have the mentality that if there is no DOMS the next day, then i have not stimulated anything, and therefor will not grow.
This is because since i began (about 16 months ago), the muscles which are always sore after the workout are the ones that have grown the most.

I have tried a couple of giant sets and managed to stimualte DOMS in the msucles that are never usually sore for me (shoulders and biceps) and therefor will continue using these Giant sets for all bodyparts and see where i end up.

youve only been lifting for 16 months? have you done the big exercises? if not then i definitly think your missing a big part. sooner or later you will probably stop getting sore or at least not to the extent to which you do now. If your a beginner i definitly think you need to stick to the basics, the big exercises and increasing the weight.

[candidizzle]

youve only been lifting for 16 months? have you done the big exercises? if not then i definitly think your missing a big part. sooner or later you will probably stop getting sore or at least not to the extent to which you do now. If your a beginner i definitly think you need to stick to the basics, the big exercises and increasing the weight.

boost i agree here you should keep some heavy compound moevements in each one of your workouts. i still think you should train like a bodybuilder, of course. but keeping barbell inclines, deadlifts, some variation of the squat, military press, cg bench, barbell curls...   keep those heeavy basics in there for a while.

[MisterMagoo]

16 months still counts as the beginner phase. big time. i've been lifting five years and i'd barely call myself beyond "novice" in terms of what i know about the game.

of course your sore muscles are growing when you're new, you're NEW. they haven't been given anything to make them grow before. see how it goes a few years down the road.

[thewickedtruth]

this is how i'll address this..

know what you want goal wise..then do everythign your power to reach it.



keep an open mind..the moment you think this is the concrete and only way to do things, you're already behind in the game. Experiment, find what works best for you, and stick with it. Everyone is different, built different, etc...so everyone responds different. There's no set standard here. If you want to train strictly for pure power..there are many ways to do that..if you want endurance you can do that is well. Hell you can do both at the same time even!

this discussion is a good one..but it's about as effective as arguing religion.

[PANDAEMONIUM]

boost i agree here you should keep some heavy compound moevements in each one of your workouts. i still think you should train like a bodybuilder, of course. but keeping barbell inclines, deadlifts, some variation of the squat, military press, cg bench, barbell curls...   keep those heeavy basics in there for a while.

I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone invited you to this conversation.

[candidizzle]

I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone invited you to this conversation.

panda i love you baby

[natural al]

I respect both your opinions on training and this is not intended to flame you, however....

You both stress the need to increase the weight in the lower rep ranges and champion the idea that strength equals size. That is a great, i'm sure it works well for you and MANY others. However WHY DO YOU DISMISS the idea of giant sets, mind muslce connection, slow reps, drop sets or any way of stimulating the muslce apart from the idea of getting strong on a few basic movements?

Guys like Milos have showed incredible results from Giant sets...have you actually tried them? or is it just a mentality that you must get stronger, and the pump is "useless"

Again this is not intended to flame, just wondering what warrants the dismissal of other training methods that don't stress the absolute importance of progressively heavier weight?
 

what magoo and slaveboy talk about = good for 95% of the people reading this site.  If people worked harder on getting stronger in a given rep range and didn't go nuts with all this crazy bullshit they'd be alot happier.

[MisterMagoo]

what magoo and slaveboy talk about = good for 95% of the people reading this site.  If people worked harder on getting stronger in a given rep range and didn't go nuts with all this crazy bullshit they'd be alot happier.

exactly. you'd never, EVER put me in charge of a college football team or have me train some NPC competitor who just can't seem to bring up a lagging bodypart. that requires a level of specialization that I just don't fathom. But for pretty much any of us, the K.I.S.S. method will work wonders compared to the overly elaborate Milos-style training.

[candidizzle]

what magoo and slaveboy talk about = good for 95% of the people reading this site.  If people worked harder on getting stronger in a given rep range and didn't go nuts with all this crazy bullshit they'd be alot happier.

well do you think 95% of lifters are beginners interested in a combo of both strength and size ?? then i would agreee... but i am under the impression that the majority of people reading this site are at least semi experienced bodybuilders not worried about function strength or strength at all for that matter

[MisterMagoo]

well do you think 95% of lifters are beginners interested in a combo of both strength and size ?? then i would agreee... but i am under the impression that the majority of people reading this site are at least semi experienced bodybuilders not worried about function strength or strength at all for that matter

then all you have to do is adjust rep ranges. you can take the idea of progressive overload and apply it to a 10-15 rep range. no one said you had to keep everything as low as triples.

[candidizzle]

then all you have to do is adjust rep ranges. you can take the idea of progressive overload and apply it to a 10-15 rep range. no one said you had to keep everything as low as triples.

thats pretty much what ive been saying the whole time ! LOL !    see we get caught up in semantics too much and forget that we are all saying something VERY SIMILAR and that the differences really are miniscule

[MisterMagoo]

thats pretty much what ive been saying the whole time ! LOL !    see we get caught up in semantics too much and forget that we are all saying something VERY SIMILAR and that the differences really are miniscule

hahaha, i started to notice that when we got into saying "well my methods are agreed upon by X" "well MINE are endorsed by Y".

all i have ever said is that a routine built on giant sets and other extravagances isn't needed. you can toss stuff in to keep it interesting, but don't get caught up in making things complex and 'scientific'. find a variant of the bench, squat, and row (for building a physique i think the deadlift is kinda overrated), and run with it. it doesn't matter if it's dumbbell incline, hack squats, and cable rows or regular old bench, squat, and BB rows. use all the other stuff for variety or if you find that one or the other doesn't agree with your body. simple stuff.

[natural al]

exactly. you'd never, EVER put me in charge of a college football team or have me train some NPC competitor who just can't seem to bring up a lagging bodypart. that requires a level of specialization that I just don't fathom. But for pretty much any of us, the K.I.S.S. method will work wonders compared to the overly elaborate Milos-style training.

I said in a given rep range, that range might be 6 for some people and it might be 20 for others but the bottom line is you have to be willing to lift heavier in that given rep range to progress, if a guy can do 6 reps with the 80lbs db's on a movement and 2 years later he's still doing 6-8 reps with that same weight but "thinks" he's lifting heavy he'll have accomplished nothing, if he pushes himself and is doing the 120's or 130's for 6-8 reps a year or 2 later he'll be bigger. 

[pumpster]

in my opinion it doesnt matter what your training method is but your goal should be to improve on everyworkout whether it be weight used, reps managed, rest between sets or any number of other factors. That being said I believe that the tried and true method is the best which is increasing the weight.

The correct answer. Weight increase should be part of it but there are other considerations. It ain't that complicated to factor in all of them. Just focusing on weight increase using the wrong rep/set/rest period/exercise scheme isn't any more efficient than using a Milos program could be, they're both good but not necessarily the most effective for general development. Sure there will be progress, but will it be optimal and at the same time mitigate injury risk? The amount of resistance is important but not the whole ball game.

Focusing primarily on weight is the overly simplistic polar opposite of "making it too complicated" using giant sets, some don't realize it yet. They're both extremes, guys. Somewhere along the continuum between the two works best for optimal development in terms of BB, throw the extremes in for change-ups & for the specific purposes they're best at ie low rep weight emphasis for strength, giant sets for refinement, etc.

[_bruce_]

Agree with magoo and slaveboy

[MisterMagoo]

Focusing primarily on weight is the overly simplistic polar opposite of "making it too complicated" using giant sets, some don't realize it yet. They're both extremes, guys. Somewhere along the continuum between the two works best for optimal development in terms of BB, throw the extremes in for change-ups & for the specific purposes they're best at ie low rep weight emphasis for strength, giant sets for refinement, etc.

i need you to do me a favor. explain, with as much detail as you can, exactly what "refinement" means and how giant sets accomplish this.

i don't care about showing studies or anything like that, i just would really, really like to know both what this term means and how the "pump at all costs" method actually achieves it.

[SpeedDemon]

The pump doesn't have any physiological benefit as far as strength and size development from anything I've read (magazines excluded).

It is however a huge benefit to the psychological size of training. A good pump is definitely motivating and will keep you coming back for more.

It feels good to get a sensation in the muscle you are working and to see a visible change at the end of your workout

[MisterMagoo]

fair point, SD. sometimes what keeps your head going is good just in terms of keeping you there.

that said, it's not the be all end all that so many people aim for and if you have enough motivation to lift, it might be a good idea to stop seeking the pump and instead go for a better quantifier be it reps, weight, rest time between sets or whatever.