You're always nice, so it's not a pleasant task to have to tell you this. I'm making a separate thread in order not to take your "Darwinist" thread off-topic.
If you want to be taken seriously in a scientific discussion (which you started), you really shouldn't be making such ridiculous claims as
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have evidence for this claim.
Please provide your evidence that some point in the past, currently carnivorous animals were herbivorous.
For instance, lions and other large cats are completely unsuited to plant-eating. Their sharp teeth, digestive systems, etc can't handle anything but meat. A lion with all the plants in the world and no meat would starve.
What evidence do you have that at some point in the past (before this "fall"), lions were capable of living off plants?
Hint: Quoting "Genesis" doesn't count.
I'm basing my belief on the bible.....so if I can't quote it I guess the thread ends?
You may find this story interesting:
http://www.vegetarismus.ch/vegepet/tyke.htmVegetarian Lioness: Little TykeAt four years old, the mature African lioness weighed 352 pounds. Her body stretched 10 feet 4 inches long and could run 40 miles per hour. Her skull, highly adapted to killing and eating prey, possessed short powerful jaws. Normally, African lions eat gnus, zebras, gazelles, impalas, and giraffes. This particular big cat, in her prime and perfect health, chose a more gentle way of life, vegetarian!
A Violent Birth
Georges and Margaret Westbeau, standing outside the thick steel bars of the cage, watched nervously. Inside, a vicious, raging beast baring razor claws and glistening fangs, roared. Flinging herself at the couple, who watched from barely three feet away, her suffering amber eyes defied their presence.
Always, in the past, this lioness destroyed her offspring as soon as they were born. Four times in the last seven years, her powerful jaws had crushed her newborn cubs, furiously throwing them against her cage's bars where they tumbled, lifeless.
Denying the normal instincts of motherhood, what possessed this lioness? Her life mocked its former freedom. She lived a caged animal, taken from the wild and tortured by those who captured her. Did she feel that by destroying her cubs they would be spared the humiliation that she endured?
Suddenly, the newborn cub came flying towards the people anxiously watching. Georges quickly grabbed the cub through the bars before it could be killed. Its right front leg dangled helplessly from its mother's brutal jaws. In the face of such fury the only thing the human could say was, 'You poor little tike'.
The Westbeaus took the three-pound 'Little Tyke' to their Hidden Valley Ranch near Seattle and there it joined the menagerie of other animals including horses, cattle, and chickens. Curious peacocks lined the housetop, kittens peered through a picket fence, and two terriers danced with joy for the new addition to the household.
Drinking bottles of warm milk, Little Tyke began the long road to recovery.
Mysterious reaction
With the advice of experts the Westbeaus began weaning Little Tyke onto solid food at three months. Leaving only a favorite doll, they removed most of her rubber toys, replacing them with bones from freshly slaughtered beef. They carried the small cub to the bones. Unexpectedly, she violently threw up!
Experts told them in no uncertain terms that lions couldn't live without meat. In the wild, lions ate only flesh - eleven pounds a day for an adult female. Alarmed at Little Tyke's strange behavior, they wondered at how they could introduce meat into her diet? In the meantime, they continued feeding Little Tyke baby cereal mixed with milk.
A well meaning friend suggested mixing beef blood with milk, in increasing proportions. Given milk containing ten drops of blood, Little Tyke would have nothing to do with it. They mixed in five drops of blood, and hid that bottle. As she sucked on the plain milk they quickly switched bottles. Again she refused it. In desperation they added one drop of blood to a full bottle of milk, but Little Tyke refused this bottle as well, and they could only stare in amazement.
Another friend suggested putting plain milk in one hand, and milk mixed with hamburger in the palm of the other hand. Little Tyke readily licked the milk from one hand, but when Georges changed hands, she immediately turned away. Sensing her distress, Georges wiped his hands on a nearby towel and picked her up. Hissing in fear and cringing away, she looked sick from the danger-smell of meat on his hand. She only settled down when given a fresh bottle of milk held in washed hands.
Thousand-dollar reward
At nine months old and weighing sixty-five pounds, Little Tyke had the splints and bandages on her leg taken off for the last time. She slowly learned to depend on the healed leg, and mingled with other animals on the ranch.
Since the ranch didn't earn enough income to make ends meet, the Westbeaus ran a small cold storage plant in town. Little Tyke came with them when they went to work and word got around about this vegetarian lioness. When she was four years old, the Westbeaus advertised a thousand dollar reward for anyone who could devise a method tricking Little Tyke into eating meat. Numerous plans met with failure since Little Tyke refused to have anything to do with flesh.
The answer
The caretakers of this gentle animal sought out animal experts, always asking them about diet. Finally, one young visitor set their mind at ease. With serious eyes he turned to them and asked, 'Don't you read your Bible? Read Genisis 1:30, and you will get your answer.' At his first opportunity Georges read in astonishment, 'And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to everything that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.' At that point, after four years, the Westbeaus finally stopped worrying.
Little Tyke's meals
A typical meal consisted of various grains, chosen for their protein, calcium, fats, and roughage. Margaret always cooked a few days' supply ahead of time. At feeding time, a double handful of the cooked grains along with one-half gallon of milk with two eggs, supplied Little Tyke a delicious meal. She had one condition before eating. Her favorite rubber doll had to be right next to her!
Little Tyke with Becky
For teeth and gums, the Westbeaus supplied rubber boots, since she refused bones. They attracted her to the boots by sprinkling them with perfume. One boot lasted almost a month.
Little Tyke had many close animal friends. Her favorites were Pinky (a kitten), Imp (another kitten), Becky (a lamb) and Baby (a fawn). Her favorite and closest friend, however, was Becky, who preferred Little Tyke's company to any of the other animals.
National publicity
You Asked For It, the popular television show hosted by Art Baker, once featured Little Tyke. The producers wanted a scene with chickens, which didn't bother Georges since Little Tyke roamed easily among chickens at Hidden Valley Ranch. When the film crew brought the chickens in, they turned out to be four little day-old chicks!
Slurp of the tongue
Little Tyke's only previous experience with new chicks had been with a hen and her chicks who had wandered onto the lawns around their home on the ranch. Georges thought nothing of it until he saw Little Tyke acting peculiarly, slinking into the house, and looking guilty with lips tightly closed over obviously open jaws. He called 'Tyke! What have you got?' Instantly her mouth opened and a little chick popped out, unharmed. Flapping it's little down-covered wings, it almost flew back to its upset mother. Apparently Little Tyke had affectionately licked the tiny chick, as she was prone to do when, with one huge slurp of the tongue, the little chick had popped into her mouth, and she hadn't known how to fondle it further!
With the amazed camera crew filming, Little Tyke strode over to the chicks, hesitated long enough to lick the chicks carefully and gently with the very tip of her tongue, and moved away with a yawn. A moment later she came back to lie down among the chicks. They immediately made their way into the long silky hair at the base of her great neck where they peered out from the shelter of their great protector.
Another scene saw a new kitten, after an introduction, walk over to Little Tyke's huge foreleg and sit down. Little Tyke crooked one paw around the tiny creature and cuddled it closer.
In front of cameras, Art Baker picked up the Bible and read: 'The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock.'
Mail poured into the producers, making this episode one of the most popular in the show's history.
Little Tyke's death
Unfortunately, while spending three weeks in Hollywood for the show, Little Tyke contracted virus pneumonia, a disease that took her life a few weeks later. The sudden change in climate may have been a contributing factor. She succumbed quietly in her sleep, retiring early after watching television.
Inspiring to this day
Her life is over, but her teachings live on. Of the many lessons she taught, not the least is that love removes fear and savagery. Little Tyke reflected the love and care shown to her after the first few moments of her precarious birth.
Thousands saw photographs of her lying with her lamb friend, Becky, inspiring many to see the world a fresh way: two such diverse natures enjoying each other's love! One eminent attorney kept a huge enlargement of this photograph in his office, and pointed to it as he counciled couples on the verge of divorce.
Scientific dilemma
Science is at a loss when it comes to Little Tyke. Felines are the strictest of carnivores. Without flesh she should have developed blindness, as well as dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM), a degenerative disease that turns heart muscles flabby and limits their ability to pump blood. This is because her diet didn't contain an adequate source of the amino acid, taurine.
Little known in the 1950's, subsequent research at UC Davis in 1976 proved that taurine is an essential nutrient for felines, the lack of which would cause degeneration of the retina. later research implicated inadequate taurine levels in dilated cardiomyopathy as well. For cats with DCM, if the disease has not progressed too far, administering taurine causes an almost miraculous recovery. Formerly, cats lived only a few days to weeks after diagnose.
Taurine is non-existent in natural non-animal sources. It is present in minute amounts in milk and eggs. Little Tyke could have gotten her taurine requirement from milk, if she drank 500 gallons per day, or from eggs, if she ate more than 4000 per day. How did Little Tyke get taurine?
Challenge
Perhaps even more important, why did Little Tyke disown her species' instincts? Little Tyke is a curiosity to the public, aberation to zoologists, anomaly to scientists, and an inspiration to idealists.
Little Tyke wasn't alone. A photograph taken at Allahabad, India in 1936 shows another awesome lioness.
In Autobiography of a Yogi, Paramahansa Yogananda wrote:
...Our group left the peaceful hermitage to greet a near-by swami, Krishnananda, a handsome monk with rosy cheeks and impressive shoulders. Reclining near him was a tame lioness. Succumbing to the monk's spiritual charm - not, I am sure, to his powerful physique! - the jungle animal refuses all meat in favor of rice and milk. The swami has taught the tawny-haired beast to utter "Aum" in a deep, attractive growl - a cat devotee!
These vegetarian lionesses are lion lights. By example, these luminaries invite us as well to discover a less violent world, turning away from slaughterhouses that fed our dogs and cats prior to this age of enlightenment.
The article is from the book "Vegetarian Cats & Dogs" by James A. Peden.
There's also a book about Little Tyke, titled "Little Tyke" by Georges Westbeau available from the Theosophical Society in England, Phone (800) 669 9425.
