Thoughts on overtraining?

[mitchyboy]

Personally I feel this is a poor choice of words, that leads many to undertrain. I feel a better term would be "under recuperating". Now granted, working 1 bodypart for 3-4 hours straight could be considered "overtraining",but if you have the energy to do that, your not working hard enough to begin with, which would lead one back to the conclusion that the intensity is so low, that it negates any so called "overtraining".
    What are your thoughts on this.

[MisterMagoo]

a lot of people say that, but it's entirely possible to train to the point that you simply cannot recuperate and maintain any kind of workout frequency.

[candidizzle]

i dont agree with anyone working out for any more than an hour and a half. (give or take). even if you train high volume style with reps 15-20 and 4 sets per movement and 6-10 movements... you still should get that done within an hour and a half.


so yes, even for drug users, i think over trianing CAN BE real.

now, when you hear people say you should never work out 4 days in a row, or your should only do one set to failure for each body part. now that is bullshit.

you can train 6 days a week for an hour and a half every day and going to failure multiple times per workout and still not be overtrained.

but of course, you will need to eat more, rest more, properly supplement; and also training that much and that intense youd probably want to be on some kind of aas.

for the natural bodybuilder i think hard and heavy, get in and get out, 3-4 times a week is ideally how you want to train. 

[Montague]

Everybody’s body is different, so consider individual genetics.
Some people respond better to more volume; some do best with less.
Even then there are other factors that come into play such as nutrition, intensity (already mentioned), and down time.

I know of two guys who get fairly good results doing 2½ hour workouts, but only training 2 days per week. That’s an ass-load of volume in each workout, but with over 72 hours of recovery time in between.

I believe the trick is to experiment and find the max volume your body can handle while still fully recovering and do it.

[wes]

All of the above posts are correct depending on who you are and how you recoup after training.

Find your own training style that works for YOU, and work the shit out of it.

[mitchyboy]

Great responses, and I agree with all I personally use a higher volume, training to failure 1-2 times per exercise, 3-4 sets per. I also use a lot of intensity boosters, but always for the last set of a given exercise.

[candidizzle]

Great responses, and I agree with all I personally use a higher volume, training to failure 1-2 times per exercise, 3-4 sets per. I also use a lot of intensity boosters, but always for the last set of a given exercise.

sounds like a solid routine my man.


pretty much what i do personally; except im instinctual and soemtimes iw ill just go super heavy for one or two sets, while soemtimes i will go lighter weight for 5-6 sets...  just whatever my body feels like it needs that day.

[Bluto]

hardly anyone is more than 1,5 hours in teh gym anyway and if they are they spend a great deal resting, talking etc
i think its more about some people working soem bodyparts too often, like arms or chest because they believe more is better

[MisterMagoo]

the routine i'm on requires over 90 minutes per workout. dear lord it's ridiculous.

[local hero]

is it not just down to genes... ive trained 7 days in a row high vol, and 3 days a week low vol and got results each way

[Cap]

Depending on your other daily activities you could put more time in the gym than others but experimentation seems to be the key.  I used to think 2 hours sessions would be great but 30-45 minutes of hard lifting works better for me now.  I find that I always feel "overtrained" when I am not eating enough, especially carbs.  Couple that with harder workouts and you will feel overtrained.  Like Magoo said, you reach a point where you do too much.

There is a distinction to be made though.  Nobody is saying the body cannot do the work but can it do the work and grow to its full potential?  I'd rather do 5 sets of full clean and jerks, go run intervals for endurance (maybe a 30 minute session) and then be done for the day.  Most big guys I know don't lift for very long.

[Overload]

Overtraining is the single most common reason for not making progress in the gym...

[MisterMagoo]

Overtraining is the single most common reason for not making progress in the gym...

i disagree entirely.

shitty diet and lack of sleep is the single most common reason. how many guys do you see busting their asses in the gym and find out they skipped breakfast and are gonna get 4 hours of sleep because tonight they'll be out drinking with the guys?

[Overload]

i disagree entirely.

shitty diet and lack of sleep is the single most common reason. how many guys do you see busting their asses in the gym and find out they skipped breakfast and are gonna get 4 hours of sleep because tonight they'll be out drinking with the guys?

That's fine, i agree with you for the most part...

I know guys who drink their life away every night and eat whataburger, they are strong as fuck and hang with me in the gym every day. some of the strongest guys at my powerlifting gym used to go out drinking all the time and do rails of coke...the next day in the gym they trained like animals.

i also know guys who eat better than me, sleep perfect every night and live the "lifestyle"...these guys haven't made gains in 2 years because they don't know how to train properly...it goes both ways just like anything in life.

Some of my best workouts have been the day after an all night study binge for an exam. i shit you not, my 3 best workouts this year were after 5 hours of sleep, 2 cups of coffee and a decent breakfast.

i agree that nutrition and rest is important, but so is proper training. if a guy does 30 sets of bench press every 3 days, i don't think eating a ton and sleeping 12 hours a day would help him much, if at all.

of course this is just my opinion.

[mitchyboy]

I agree completely overload, but is that not just under recuperating? My problem comes when people try to push the HIT way of thinking on others. When you say "OVRTRAINING" it gives the impresion that you need to train less, and that may not be the case. My point is that the word itself, in my opinion, is a poor choice

[Overload]

I agree completely overload, but is that not just under recuperating? My problem comes when people try to push the HIT way of thinking on others. When you say "OVRTRAINING" it gives the impresion that you need to train less, and that may not be the case. My point is that the word itself, in my opinion, is a poor choice

Exactly, but your body always recuperates the same, so it's the "overtraining" that causes the problem.

You are correct, over training could be caused by frequency, too much volume, going to heavy...etc.

over the years you find a nice groove that works for you and this is the most important part of training. everyone trains a little differently and once you find what works for you the gains come much easier. each time i hit a plateau, i decreased the volume, increased the intensity and went right past it...just my .02

i hardly train more than 35-45 minutes...short and intense workouts are the best IMO.

Overtraining to me, is training way too frequently, or doing way too much volume to where your body will not recover by the next session.

[slaveboy1980]

i dont agree with overtraining being the biggest reason people arent making progress in the gym, neither is nutrition, altho its very common to read in various articles.  personally i think its mainly due to a mix of the following:

(1): people dont focus enough on getting stronger in the basic exercises (they dont challenge themselves and add weight to the bar). sure its easy to go to failure, and say your working hard, but thats not enough. you have to be very goal oriented inorder to make progress. all the time trying to do better. a log book helps tremendously.
(2): people simply arent working hard enough. they may very well be in the gym several days per week, and on paper have a good workout routine´, but that doesnt mean they are training hard enough.
(3): no clear and defined short term goals (just vague longterm goals)
(4): no plan 

are there more reasons? of course, and overtraining is a factor in some cases and poor nutrition too. but in my opinion, not the main reasons. i think a big % of the people who arent making progress are simply not working out hard enough in the basic exercises and are forgetting to add weight to the bar. they also lack focus when in the gym. too many factors change from week to week.

they go in the gym and work for example 'chest', they do incline barbell press then flat db press  then peck deck  and finish off with cable crossovers, but they dont log the weight they use, and next week dont really try to beat the previous weights. often they will change things up too.and do the exercises in a different order and maybe subsitute a couple of exercises. this doesnt 'shock' the muscle...all it does it make it harder to chart progress. and 'shocking' the muscles is also often used as an excuse not to increase the weights.

another thing i wanna comment on is that many of the Flex routines are actually not  high volume routines...because they use a pyramid system; you do 4 different exercises for chest...but only the last set is tough....and probably only the first couple of exercises are heavy basic exercises. so in reality your maybe doing 16sets on paper, but only 4 of them are tough...and even worse your probably only working the muscle once a week.

edit: i wanna add acouple of other points. (5) crappy workout programs that have you work a muscle only once a week (slows down training progress alot for the genetically average person

(6) not being consistant enough (this could be included in points 1-4)

compared to overtraining , i think point 1-6 are more common reasons for lack of progress. (obviously you can have both in some situations)

[Overload]

Good post...i agree 100%.

there are too many variables to lable one as the most common, i should have worded it differently in my original post.

most people, for lack of a better term, train "stupid".

Having a plan and a log is the first thing any person should have when training. i have logs from 7 years ago that i look at sometimes just to have a laugh. it's amazing how much my training has changed over 10+ years...

[jpm101]

Not a myth, overtraining can be a major roadblock to steady progress. Getting to the basic biological/physical requirement, the body must recover to with-in it's  state of full normal function after any intense training session.  This factor allows the body to adapt to the next workout with the capacity to increase and have steady advancement from workout to workout. Recovery is of vital importance and can be the main element for success. If that means 3, 2 or 1 workout a week for you, than that's the way it is.  Five or more workout days a week may be considered the extreme if real progress is the goal. Of course we have the blessed ones who can get big and strong as if by accident, doing any type of training   Most of the people who come here are no where near that breed of lifter.

As far as avoiding overtraining, the common denominator for training progress is short and to the point workouts. Combine that with the intention of preforming that workout with serious intent. Plan the training sessions, train smart, hard and at a good workout pace. Keep an up to date training log (as has been suggested before) Do not need any more than 2 movements (if that) per major body parts. Or any higher than 4-6 sets for any body part. Ten sets on some special programs, but usually preformed once a week per body part and on a 6-8 week cycle. Given this, any workout should never last longer than 45 minutes. Try avoiding the point of failure on any rep or set.Good Luck.

[MisterMagoo]

i really do dislike the "never go above X minutes" idea. it's not like at the 45-60 minute mark suddenly catabolism comes flying through your veins like a fire hose. it all depends on WHAT you do in that time. that's how you have olympic lifters in the gym for 2+ hours a day getting better while the HIT acolytes tend to burn out in 45.

[webcake]

I honestly don't care how long my workout goes for. If you swear by the whole "gotta keep it under 45 mins" notion, at times you are short changing yourself by rushing yourself.

Personally i think the biggest cause of over training is the endless sets and exercises most people do. I'm doing back today, and ill do 3 exercises. I see people do back doing 6 exercises and 3-4 sets per exercise.

If you cut your exercises down and put more effort into those 2-3 rather than doing 5-6 exercises, you will get more out of the exercises that you choose to do, and your workout will be quicker.

Over training can be a real problem obviously, but with a good diet and smart training, its easy to avoid. Too many people generalise and say that anyone training over 60mins is over training, or doing more than 3 sets an exercise is over training. It might be for you, but we are all different.

[jpm101]

Of course we will all have to decide what to do with the time spent in a gym. Will the longer workouts ( hour and a half plus)  morf more into becoming manual labor rather than a time of opportunity to build muscle mass and strength in a shorter, but intense, workout period.  This is all in regard to pure BB'ing, where max results are to be gained from every workout. I think that is what most folks who come here want. Also want to avoid just putting in just "Gym Time" rather than getting the most benefit from serious workouts.

Olympic lifters, like PL'ers, have to be economical with workout time. Form, flexibility and exercise performance are combined with adjusting to the progressive tonnage (main goal) lifted in any training session. Strength/power, with the handling of  near max weight will require much more rest between sets and exercises  than BB'ing  will. So that 2+ hour gage is very misleading. Comparing apples and oranges .

Getting  a fast paced workout is not always linked with HIT, HIIT, IT, etc.  I do not favor HIT over anything else, it is just another tool to be tried.   I like Power Rack work more than anything else, with partials (3 phase at times...insure muscle balance). Preferring overhead lifts rather than flat benches or power cleans over BB rows any time. Just makes more sense to me. I even use high rep (20 reps) at times for Power Rack (squats, DL's, SLDL's, Cleans, etc) and regular Rest/Pause training. Nothing take me over a good 45-50 minutes of actually training time per session. Am not a true BB'er in any sense of the word. But do love lifting heavy. Something like power BB'ing ,which most of my training Bud's are into.

Guess the bottom line is, if a lot of guy's would up their training pace, the workouts could be more productive in the long run. That along with briefer and to the point training . The TUT thing does seem to have value for quite a few successful BB'ers. Though may not be everyone's cup of tea. Good Luck.

Side Bar: Webcke makes some good points.

[darksol]

I agree with many others.  Over Training isn't usually the problem its lack of sleep and diet that is the biggest cause of not making gains.  There are tons of kids that goto the gym  and bust their ass on weights, but they stay up too late, only getting 6 hours of sleep.  They skip breakfast, and only have two large meals / day.  Sleep helps alot, but the biggest things most forget is to get big you need to be contantly eating.  When you sit down and eat a huge meal, only the first 30 or 40 grams of protein are utilized,  The rest goes to the toilet.  That is why its important to eat 6+ times a day, ensuring you get 30+ grams or protein / meal.  This keeps your system saturated with the right stuff to grow.

The only kind of over training that you should watch out for is anything that can cause damage to your joints and tendons ( running, swimming ext ).  Its important to know what your body is capable of.  Don't let some trainer push you farther than your body is designed to handle.  Lactate is one thing.  shoulder and join pain is another. 

[candidizzle]

  When you sit down and eat a huge meal, only the first 30 or 40 grams of protein are utilized,  The rest goes to the toilet. 

this is false. 

[Charlys69]

my opion after more than 27 years training with weights

underfeeding is the No. 1 reason for not making good progress
undersleeping and training to rest ratio is No. 2.....