Author Topic: duration of soreness  (Read 4403 times)

smaul

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duration of soreness
« on: July 08, 2008, 12:35:03 AM »
If I'm sore for 6 days after training a body part would you say I'd overdone it?  More specifically it's my calves and I did 4 working sets.

Can I train them again if they're sore.  Normally I wouldn't but it has been almost a week.
It hasn't helped...

calfzilla

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2008, 12:43:40 AM »
Not if you are just starting out or coming back for an extended layoff.  If you are sore for 6 days after and you have been training steadily for a while...well I don't know what to say. ???  Unless it's the joints that are sore and not the muscle. 

smaul

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2008, 12:56:43 AM »
I get this pretty much every time I train calves.  Very strange, also it's definitely the muscle. 

I've been training consistently for years.
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calfzilla

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2008, 01:01:08 AM »
I don't know, maybe try stretching the muscle after your workout. 

webcake

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2008, 01:54:37 AM »
Well if your only doing 4 sets for calves and you are sore for 6 days, you need to start stretching. Do you stretch calves much? I stretch the shit out of my calves and i only do 2-3 sets 2 times a week. Warm up good, stretch between sets and after the workout.

Ever since i started stretching a lot (whole body) the duration of DOMS is minimal. Sometimes im not even sore much at all.
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smaul

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2008, 02:43:43 AM »
Well if your only doing 4 sets for calves and you are sore for 6 days, you need to start stretching. Do you stretch calves much? I stretch the shit out of my calves and i only do 2-3 sets 2 times a week. Warm up good, stretch between sets and after the workout.

Ever since i started stretching a lot (whole body) the duration of DOMS is minimal. Sometimes im not even sore much at all.

Might be it, I only make a token effort.  Will try that.  thanks!
It hasn't helped...

mass 04

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2008, 06:52:38 AM »
Well if your only doing 4 sets for calves and you are sore for 6 days, you need to start stretching. Do you stretch calves much? I stretch the shit out of my calves and i only do 2-3 sets 2 times a week. Warm up good, stretch between sets and after the workout.

Ever since i started stretching a lot (whole body) the duration of DOMS is minimal. Sometimes im not even sore much at all.
I agree. I've noticed this with quads, chest etc.. I pounded my legs last week and stretched for a good 15 mins afterwards and my legs were barely sore.

DIVISION

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2008, 05:09:45 PM »
If I'm sore for 6 days after training a body part would you say I'd overdone it?  More specifically it's my calves and I did 4 working sets.

Can I train them again if they're sore.  Normally I wouldn't but it has been almost a week.

Stretching before and after helps avoid excessive lactic acid buildup in the muscle.

Also, cardio after the workout can help with this as well.



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Vince B

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2008, 08:25:14 PM »
The mechanism of DOMS is not fully understood. If you assume it is a side-effect of growth then training to get sore is smart. If you allow your muscle to recover then you face the RBE, or repeated bout effect, and growth will be slow. I suggest you retrain your muscles while still sore and continue to do this for a couple of weeks or more. After that you can maintain size by training once a week.

elite_lifter

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2008, 09:32:32 PM »
The mechanism of DOMS is not fully understood. If you assume it is a side-effect of growth then training to get sore is smart. If you allow your muscle to recover then you face the RBE, or repeated bout effect, and growth will be slow. I suggest you retrain your muscles while still sore and continue to do this for a couple of weeks or more. After that you can maintain size by training once a week.
I would not and I don't think too many people would suggest this. If you are sore the muscle is not fully recovered and I believe this will lead to overtraining that bodypart.
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Vince B

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2008, 10:18:45 PM »
The experts arrive at last. Thank goodness.

io856

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2008, 02:50:15 AM »
I would not and I don't think too many people would suggest this. If you are sore the muscle is not fully recovered and I believe this will lead to overtraining that bodypart.
stupid fools, you dont realise how correct this Vince Basile is...


Nosaka K, Newton M. Repeated Eccentric Exercise Bouts Do Not Exacerbate Muscle Damage and Repair. Journal of Strength and Conditioning. 2002 Feb;16(1):117-122.

If you continue believing this crap you will end up finding yourself in the same spot 12 months ahead.

elite_lifter

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2008, 07:59:25 AM »
stupid fools, you dont realise how correct this Vince Basile is...


Nosaka K, Newton M. Repeated Eccentric Exercise Bouts Do Not Exacerbate Muscle Damage and Repair. Journal of Strength and Conditioning. 2002 Feb;16(1):117-122.

If you continue believing this crap you will end up finding yourself in the same spot 12 months ahead.
O.K. Mr. 5'5" 165lbs keep  talking.
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Redwingenator

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2008, 08:21:12 AM »
stupid fools, you dont realise how correct this Vince Basile is...


Nosaka K, Newton M. Repeated Eccentric Exercise Bouts Do Not Exacerbate Muscle Damage and Repair. Journal of Strength and Conditioning. 2002 Feb;16(1):117-122.

If you continue believing this crap you will end up finding yourself in the same spot 12 months ahead.

Important notes from the above study:
#1) This was based on untrained individuals and the paper specifically mentions that the findings may very well be different from trained individuals.

#2) There was still a 2-4 day recovery period between workouts.

#3) pg 122 last paragraph:  "It seems difficult and generate maximal force in damaged muscles, and it may be risky to use these weakened muscles."

#4) The exercise performed was bicep curls for 3 sets of 10 reps using only the eccentric phase @ 50% of max.

The bottom line is that most people that have been training for 2 months or more do not typically stay sore for more than 3 days post workout which makes this study useless for most people on this board.  For you personal trainers this is a great paper to read and apply to your untrained clients.

elite_lifter

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2008, 08:42:59 AM »
Important notes from the above study:
#1) This was based on untrained individuals and the paper specifically mentions that the findings may very well be different from trained individuals.

#2) There was still a 2-4 day recovery period between workouts.

#3) pg 122 last paragraph:  "It seems difficult and generate maximal force in damaged muscles, and it may be risky to use these weakened muscles."

#4) The exercise performed was bicep curls for 3 sets of 10 reps using only the eccentric phase @ 50% of max.

The bottom line is that most people that have been training for 2 months or more do not typically stay sore for more than 3 days post workout which makes this study useless for most people on this board.  For you personal trainers this is a great paper to read and apply to your untrained clients.
My thoughts exactly, Io856, you are a FOOL!!
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Redwingenator

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2008, 01:35:11 PM »
My thoughts exactly, Io856, you are a FOOL!!

I applaud anyone that posts actual research to support their idea, so Io856 just got misled by the title of the study.

pumpster

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2008, 05:23:33 PM »
I would not and I don't think too many people would suggest this. If you are sore the muscle is not fully recovered and I believe this will lead to overtraining that bodypart.

I agree with you. There's no definitive answer. My opinion is that DOMS is desirable, but that there is no advantage in training while still sore, having tried both avenues extensively. The theoretical and practical advantages of training resumption once recovered from soreness appeals far more now.

That's not to propose the extremist HIT-based once a week or less per muscle training frequency now in vogue amongst some. IMO greater potential's realized by training a muscle regularly after it's recovered, not to wait longer periods of time due to a particular theory.

pumpster

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2008, 05:25:21 PM »
Important notes from the above study:
#1) This was based on untrained individuals and the paper specifically mentions that the findings may very well be different from trained individuals.

#2) There was still a 2-4 day recovery period between workouts.

#3) pg 122 last paragraph:  "It seems difficult and generate maximal force in damaged muscles, and it may be risky to use these weakened muscles."

#4) The exercise performed was bicep curls for 3 sets of 10 reps using only the eccentric phase @ 50% of max.

The bottom line is that most people that have been training for 2 months or more do not typically stay sore for more than 3 days post workout which makes this study useless for most people on this board.  For you personal trainers this is a great paper to read and apply to your untrained clients.


There are no conclusive studies, therefor to me using research as the basis for an argument is akin to evoking bibllical passages.

Vince B

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2008, 06:10:08 PM »
If the mechanisms are known then there should be no argument or confusion. Why do muscles experience DOMS? Whatever is that pain for or the result of? You see, if scientists aren't looking for a particular thing they usually overlook something that might be important.

There is some research perhaps even by Nosaka that demonstrated that DOMS is associated with growth. I have anecdotal evidence that rapid growth occurs when DOMS is present. Some insist this is merely swelling due to damage. Well, if the swelling is sustained and increases over a month by say an inch for arms then surely this is hypertrophy.

I could care less about what most people believe. What does the science say? We all know about DOMS and most try to avoid it altogether. Especially with beginners. There is heaps of research about trying to diminish DOMS. That is what you would expect from scientists who overlook that this could be a signal that rapid growth is occurring. Well, you have to feed the muscles plenty or there can be no growth. I can't tell you the number of young guys who are afraid of getting a gut so don't eat enough and stay the same year in and year out. Most literally wait for a miracle.........or drugs!

What about the repeated bout effect, Pumpster? How do you deal with that phenomenon? Once your muscle 'recovers' you have to do something extraordinary to get it to grow again. I believe a shortcut is to keep the muscle sore and hence growing.

There is a simple way to demonstrate whether this is true. Stop training all your muscles and for two weeks just train your arms. You have to find a way to get both triceps and biceps sore. Most of us will have trouble getting the biceps sore. If you cannot achieve this then the experiment won't work. If you can get both muscles sore then keep them sore for the whole two weeks. Train every second or third day. Warm up plenty each workout. Don't let the elbows rub against pads because you can damage the sheath that covers the elbows. Work up to your maximum weight for 15 reps and then do perhaps up to 10 sets with that maximum weight. Superset biceps with triceps. Go from bis to tris back and forth resting just long enough to do the target reps. Don't worry if your reps drop to about 10 after the 3rd or 4th set. That is why we start with 15 reps. A pump will occur easier doing the higher reps and your form will be better instead of cheating. There will be less chance for injury. If you cannot get a muscle sore then change exercises. You should be able to increase your arms by 1/2 inch in two weeks. If you keep going for a month you should be able to add an inch. Try to gain at least 1 pound of bodyweight per week while doing this experiment.

elite_lifter

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2008, 06:20:41 PM »
Vince, if you have been so successful with your training theories why do you look like a lump of shit? Just a Fat, Lazy, Bastard who likes to preach but does not like doing? Keep reading you scientific studies. ::)
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pumpster

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2008, 11:22:26 PM »
I think it's best to separate out a few disparate elements about DOMS:

1/ Is DOMS desirable at all? Many on the boards claim it's irrelevant to growth. No one knows; my opinion is that it is desirable because:
-It clearly indicates that the muscles are being highly stimulated and broken down.
-It's possibly linked to growth.


Combine those 2 factors and it's far smarter to play the odds by trying for DOMS as often as possible.


2/ If DOMS is desirable, can the repeated bout effect be avoided? A grey area, but i have been able to continue to get some degree of DOMS even in those situations by applying small changes to the same routines; it doesn't necessarily take much tweaking of variables to maintain some DOMS even over a period of time.


3/ Is training again while still sore an effective strategy..my experience:
-It doesn't help in terms of greater development.
-More data in terms of countervailing if imperfect evidence has accumulated over the years that suggests taht recovery is one the most important factors in growth, which goes against training while still sore and favors waiting until tissues are fully recovered. That normally takes 2-3 days, not the 7 or more days espoused by HITers. Most of the top BBs of the last 4 decades or so ascribe to the 2-3 day recovery.


That triceps pedestal's great, in fact it's a shame it's not as ubiquitous in gyms as a scott bench, as it's the equivalent. On the other hand, there are a couple of other exercises
that i've found in the absence of a pedestal through trial and error to be equally effective and more easily done.

Also, it's unclear whether the cable angle's adjustable. The angles a little low when compared with the original designs IMO.



Vince B

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2008, 08:43:04 AM »
Larry Scott recommends the height of the pulley in the lying triceps extensions to be 5 feet from the floor. The pulley in the photo is a bit lower but I do have an adjustable setup on another machine and people kept putting it lower than the 5 feet so I bolted it at the top. The idea is to keep some tension in the extended position and you need it at 5 feet to achieve that.

The triceps respond best when they are exercised in the stretched position as shown in the photos. There is a pad on each side that prevents the elbows from sliding out to the side. You would be amazed at how many still cheat when doing this very intense exercise. You have to start light and do perhaps 30 or more reps and then increase the weight slowly. I add one plate at a time.

The trouble with the scientists is that they are not bodybuilders. If they were we would not be having this discussion.

When training for the pinch grip I discovered that the optimum frequency was every 4th day. If I trained earlier or later the improvement stopped. So for strength training every 4th day seems about right. If you get your muscles really sore then every 4th day might be sufficient. I remember that when I was training calves and arms while both were sore and growing that I was so motivated that I wanted to train every second day! My strength and size were increasing daily.

You have to avoid the repeated bout effect at all costs.

Redwingenator

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2008, 03:18:35 PM »

There are no conclusive studies, therefor to me using research as the basis for an argument is akin to evoking bibllical passages.

A single study supporting a theory is better than "cause I think so."  Although you are right, guidelines are not set based on a single study, nor can one expect to win an arguement based on the conclusions of a single study.  Of course multiple studies drawing similar conclusions is what people, but that rarely happens.

Vince B

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2008, 05:24:02 PM »
From the philosophy of science we find that theories can be stumbled upon from trial and error. The truth of a new theory is always hard to establish if it is controversial because few will try the theory because they simply do not believe it. In bodybuilding and sport everyone knows about delayed onset muscle soreness. That pain is seen as undesirable and a concomitant of doing something extreme for the first time or after a layoff. I don't think anyone before me in 1999 actually linked the soreness to muscle growth. I wrote about this association in Ironman in 2000.

So far no one has been able to falsify what I wrote. It should be an easy matter to dismiss through a controlled experiment. I was amazed how some at the HST forum literally would not even try it for a couple of weeks on one muscle to see if it had any value. You know, do HST for one calf and DOMS training for the other. Nope, they dismissed it outright because it didn't have scientific support. When a study did support the idea that DOMS was associated with muscle growth they still didn't accept the study as sufficient to support that claim. I suppose most of us are like that. I wouldn't try HST, either! After nearly 50 years in the Irongame I know how many sets I need to make my arms grow. Doing two sets every second day is not going to be adequate. I tried HIT and that wasn't adequate, either. Big muscles are required for muscular endurance with heavy resistance. You might need only a few minutes of the right kind of mechanical tension on a muscle to stimulate growth but you need a lot of sets to accumulate that sufficient amount of tension.

I tried the theory out on myself and gained an inch on my arms and 1 1/4 inches on my calves in 30 days. I would have kept going but foolishly hurt my elbows by having them on pads for triceps extensions and damaged the sheath there. For all biceps and triceps exercises keep the elbows off pads. For calves I was doing ballistic movements with up to 700 pounds for 60 to 70 reps for at least 10 sets every 2 or 3 days. I really enjoyed training but the ballistic movements damaged my Achilles tendons so I had to stop. Now I caution others not to do those bouncing movements too much. 

pumpster

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Re: duration of soreness
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2008, 05:52:52 PM »
A single study supporting a theory is better than "cause I think so." 

Not really. And it's not better than long term experience.