Author Topic: Robbery...  (Read 26573 times)

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #175 on: July 17, 2008, 06:22:29 AM »
handguns are serious weapons: fact
handguns are innacurate beyond 15m: fact
shooting at a fast moving target on the street is dangerous and irresponsible: fact

go to a range, fire some handguns, and see for yourself - it's easy to talk big now, but I GUARANTEE when shit goes down and you've only got a moment to figure out whats going on, you won't be taking well aimed shots, you'll blow your load and empty that entire magazine into the crowd

handguns are serious business and should not be trusted in the pockets of 'Joe Dumbass' ESPECIALLY if they plan on firing it in public and being a 'hero' - this is real life not a John Wayne movie

You wouldn't open fire on a target 15m away.  You'd engage him when he was a direct threat and much closer.  At 15m, you'd retreat and find an exit.

You prepare yourself at the range and mentally, so that God forbid some lunatic starts shooting up the place one day as you're enjoying dinner, you can defend yourself.  You prepare yourself so that your reaction when some crackhead reaches in your car window is to defend yourself.

It's an ugly world, and I'd love to not need a gun.  However, as long as police response time is 11 minutes, as long as people fight unfair in groups, as long as the bad guys have theirs, and as long as there are people who have no problem hurting me for their own financial gain, I will carry mine.

To get a permit to carry in FL, you have to pass a million legal checks, have a crystal clean record, and you have to demonstrate proficiency with the weapon.

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #176 on: July 17, 2008, 06:24:08 AM »
'

shut it, gun nut

Kiss my ass gun hater.  ::)

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #177 on: July 17, 2008, 06:27:18 AM »
Epic copy & paste.  But google "John Lott Mary Rosh."  He has no credibility.

That had no effects on his credibility. It didn't change his data, nor his positions at places like Yale, etc. Try again. It's also easy enough to supply articles and or data from others anyway if you wish.

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #178 on: July 17, 2008, 06:37:00 AM »
You wouldn't open fire on a target 15m away.  You'd engage him when he was a direct threat and much closer.  At 15m, you'd retreat and find an exit.

You prepare yourself at the range and mentally, so that God forbid some lunatic starts shooting up the place one day as you're enjoying dinner, you can defend yourself.  You prepare yourself so that your reaction when some crackhead reaches in your car window is to defend yourself.

It's an ugly world, and I'd love to not need a gun.  However, as long as police response time is 11 minutes, as long as people fight unfair in groups, as long as the bad guys have theirs, and as long as there are people who have no problem hurting me for their own financial gain, I will carry mine.

To get a permit to carry in FL, you have to pass a million legal checks, have a crystal clean record, and you have to demonstrate proficiency with the weapon.

True.

Like the 7th century cowardly combatants who live in the mid east, who fight in any way they choose while we must follow geneva convention and other hand-tying rules at disadvantage....as long as what 240 said is true, we must be able to defend ourselves.

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #179 on: July 17, 2008, 06:44:57 AM »
handguns are serious weapons: fact

FACT: and the data shows the more of them in the hands of law abiding, crime rates go down.

handguns are innacurate beyond 15m:

FACT: vast majority of defensive shootings take place in less than 5'

fact
shooting at a fast moving target on the street is dangerous and irresponsible: fact

Fact: targets attempting to harm you may or may not be "fast moving" and data shows in most cases, simply showing the gun stops the crime as most criminals are not looking for a fight but a victim. In the rare cases that does not stop the crime, data shows the gun in the hands of the law abiding is a net benefit.

Again, data was supplied and you ignored it. Instead of focusing on a tool, focus on the outcomes, which where supplied.

go to a range, fire some handguns, and see for yourself - it's easy to talk big now, but I GUARANTEE when shit goes down and you've only got a moment to figure out whats going on, you won't be taking well aimed shots, you'll blow your load and empty that entire magazine into the crowd

Again, conjecture from an ignorant person who has not looked into the many studies that exist and parroting what he thinks he knows about guns. I train people to shoot all the time, have put more ammo down range in a weekend from handguns than you have in your entire life, compete in IDPA, and work with all manner of law enforcement and others in the biz of guns. For example:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=219954.0

Parroting what you learned the military has no applications to other situations. In the military, the handgun is considered a last ditch weapon, and for good reason, unless you are in one of the highly specialized units that work a lot of CQB.

handguns are serious business and should not be trusted in the pockets of 'Joe Dumbass' ESPECIALLY if they plan on firing it in public and being a 'hero' - this is real life not a John Wayne movie

And you should take some time to actually research the topic vs running mouth on a topic you are clearly ignorant about. In EVERY state there was an increase in law abiding people able to carry, crime goes down. So much for your Goofy John Wayne statements.

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #180 on: July 17, 2008, 06:47:52 AM »
You wouldn't open fire on a target 15m away.  You'd engage him when he was a direct threat and much closer.  At 15m, you'd retreat and find an exit.

You prepare yourself at the range and mentally, so that God forbid some lunatic starts shooting up the place one day as you're enjoying dinner, you can defend yourself.  You prepare yourself so that your reaction when some crackhead reaches in your car window is to defend yourself.

It's an ugly world, and I'd love to not need a gun.  However, as long as police response time is 11 minutes, as long as people fight unfair in groups, as long as the bad guys have theirs, and as long as there are people who have no problem hurting me for their own financial gain, I will carry mine.

To get a permit to carry in FL, you have to pass a million legal checks, have a crystal clean record, and you have to demonstrate proficiency with the weapon.

up to 20 mins in some places...they put you on hold...dead by then

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #181 on: July 17, 2008, 07:06:17 AM »
up to 20 mins in some places...they put you on hold...dead by then

Yep.  Police are usually more of an investigation unit than crime prevention in many cases.

I guess people like Big Poppa J and others are content with 'playing the odds' and just plain hoping that as the economy gets worse and crime increases, they'll never be a victim to random crime.

Playing the odds, praying, and "hoping" is great for some.  Others prefer to be more self-reliant.

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #182 on: July 17, 2008, 07:06:33 AM »
..as long as what 240 said is true, we must be able to defend ourselves.

Let's look that topic objectively.  Cars are intended for driving to work, yet kill 40,000 per year. Pools and bikes-designed for biking and swimming respectively-kill more kids per year then guns. What guns are USED for is what’s relevant. There are negative and positive uses for guns.

A negative use of a gun is when a person commits a crime using a gun to commit it. That person is what is known as a criminal and all legal and or physical punishment should be applied to said person.

The positive use of a gun would be to prevent a crime or save a life, such as the 120lb women who shoots the 210 rapist, the 80 year old man who prevents the burglar from coming into his home and doing him harm, or the shop owner who protects his life work from looters after a storm, and so on

In that context, the ONLY relevant question is, what is the ratio of good to bad uses of guns? Between 700,000 (FBI’s data) and 2.5 million (Klecks data) times per year a gun is used in the in the US. in the positive sense Guns are used approximately 5 times more often to prevent a crime/save a life then they are to commit a crime.

So why not just remove all guns from the hands of citizens to reduce crime (which is not even possible nor constitutional but mentioned here for the sake of argument) which should lower crime?  On a much larger historical picture, history has shown us over and over and over what happens to a population that is disarmed by it’s own government: they become subjects, slaves, or dead. Hitler knew that all too well when he said:

“History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so." --- Adolf Hitler (1889-1945), April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitlers Tischegesprache Im Fuhrerhauptquartier 1941-1942.


Thus, why the Second Amend exists and reveals a universal truth: the right to self defense - be it from criminals  or a tyrannical government - is a BASIC HUMAN RIGHT no government can grant or take away. Those who do not view  armed self defense as a basic human right, ignore the mass graves of those who died at the hands of tyrants.

Great men of peace and war agree on that. For example:

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." -Mohandas K. Gandhi

and

"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." -- The Dalai Lama, (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times)

Guns are a necessary evil but necessary to a democracy  and that fact was recognized by men far smarter then we are. For example;

"A FREE people ought...to be armed..." -George Washington, speech of January 7, 1790 in Boston Independent Chronicle, January 14, 1790.

And:

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws
make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides,
for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson  quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and punishment - (1764).

And a more recent opinion:

"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or laborer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." --George Orwell


This is no less true today then it was then, perhaps even more relevant today then it was then some have argued.


Use your logical mind, do some research, leave what you think you know of the topic behind, and you will be shocked at what you find.

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #183 on: July 17, 2008, 07:08:37 AM »
Yep.  Police are usually more of an investigation unit than crime prevention in many cases.

I guess people like Big Poppa J and others are content with 'playing the odds' and just plain hoping that as the economy gets worse and crime increases, they'll never be a victim to random crime.

Playing the odds, praying, and "hoping" is great for some.  Others prefer to be more self-reliant.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. That's what smart self-reliant people do.

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #184 on: July 17, 2008, 07:52:32 AM »
up to 20 mins in some places...they put you on hold...dead by then

Up to? Try a lot longer then that in many cases.

2 students shot dead had sought cops' help

Walter Pacheco

Sentinel Staff Writer

September 27, 2007


Roughly three hours before they died, Tiffany Barwick and Michael Ruschak asked Seminole County deputy sheriffs for protection from the man they feared would kill them.

Andrew Allred, Barwick's former boyfriend, had raided her bank account, tampered with her MySpace page and sent phony messages to her family and friends, she told deputies. He e-mailed Ruschak saying, "The next time I see you, I'm going to kill you," and sent Barwick an image of herself covered with bullet holes, a report of the meeting states.

A deputy replied that he could do nothing at that time.

Later on Monday night, Allred plowed into Barwick's car outside Ruschak's home in Oviedo, broke in and shot him dead. He then walked into the bathroom, where Barwick was hiding, and shot her, according to the arrest report. (Hear new audio of the 911 calls made from the home.)

Another man who tried to wrestle the gun from Allred was shot in the leg.

Sheriff's officials defended the agency's handling of the plea for help, recounted in a four-page report released Wednesday. The deputy who responded to Barwick and Ruschak's complaints did "the best he could," Chief Deputy Steven Harriett said.

"The deputy and everyone in this department truly regrets that these two young people lost their lives in this way, but the deputy had to deal with the information available at the time," Harriett said. "He made a decision he thought was the most appropriate."

Carol Wick, chief executive officer of Harbor House, an organization that offers shelter to victims of domestic violence, said the case should make the Sheriff's Office reconsider its procedures. What happened, she said, "It's just tragic."

Allred, 21, is being held without bail at John Polk Correctional Facility in Sanford, where he faces two counts of homicide, attempted homicide and armed burglary in the shootings on Shady Oak Lane.

Acquaintances said he was bitter about his breakup with Barwick, a student at Seminole Community College, and directed his anger at her and Ruschak, a student at the University of Central Florida. The three had been friends, according to these accounts, until Barwick ended her relationship with Allred in August.

Sheriff's records show that Barwick, 19, first called deputies at 11:30 a.m. Monday alleging that Allred had tapped into her Bank of America account and withdrawn money without her permission.

At 7:09 p.m. she told another deputy that Allred just sent Ruschak, 22, a message threatening his life and that he had recently purchased a gun. She pleaded with the deputy to "lock him [Allred] up."

Seminole Deputy Peter Sean Brewer, who met with Barwick and Ruschak, wrote in his report that "Allred's actions did not meet the necessary elements for a charge of assault. and as such, I could not arrest him for making those threats."

He said the law required him to observe harassing communications to make an arrest, but that he would forward her complaint and other materials to the State Attorney's Office for consideration of possible charges.

He advised her to seek a protective court order against Allred and to keep records of any e-mails, text messages and voice messages from him. Other suggestions included changing her cell-phone number and calling 911 if she saw Allred's vehicle.

Investigators said gunfire broke out about 10:30 p.m. during a party at Ruschak's home. Oviedo police later arrested Allred at the home he shares with his family in Oviedo. Officers said he confessed to the crimes and asked them about the condition of "the ones that were shot," according to the arrest report.

He told officers he went to the house to ram his girlfriend's car but shot his way through a sliding glass door when he could not enter the front door. Authorities recovered the handgun they think he used.

Oviedo Lt. Dennis Lynch said homicide investigators are reviewing 911 calls made from the house on the night of the shooting.

Friends and family had mixed reactions on the events that led to Monday's shooting.

"My opinion is that if you get a restraining order, it is just a piece of paper," said Ruschak's mother, Janice. "I know police are doing their best, and I don't want to blame them."

Even if Barwick had sought a protective order against Allred, the forms must be filed at the Seminole County Courthouse, then sent to a judge and finally the Sheriff's Office.

Court officials said the process could take a day or two.

Wick said she doubted it would have helped.

"Allred would not have been served the order in time and, even if he was, who knows if that would have stopped him?" Wick said. "Sometimes there's nothing you can do about it."

Two Seminole County crime-scene technicians continued working Wednesday at the duplex where the shootings took place, gathering evidence.

Barwick's white Chevrolet Cavalier, its back caved in, sat about 15 feet from the front door. Still in the driveway was Ruschak's car, an old police cruiser, a black Ford Crown Victoria with a search light attached to the driver's side.

Phone messages left Wednesday with Allred's mother were not immediately returned. A neighbor described Allred as "a very smart kid" who was a computer whiz. Others also commented on his technological skill, but expressed shock at the charges against him.

"He is a very intelligent man. Never in a million years would I have suspected this," said Daniel Morman, a UCF student who spent time watching movies, drinking beer and building bonfires at Allred's rural home. "He didn't appear to have that in him. I guess you always hope your friends are good people."

But former UCF student Erinn Redd, who knew Allred and Ruschak since their days at Oviedo High School, remembered Allred as "deviously clever and capable of taking matters to the extreme."

He had threatened other friends in the past, she said. "But we never expected him to go murder someone."

Rene Stutzman of the Sentinel staff contributed to this report. Walter Pacheco can be reached at wpacheco@orlandosentinel.com


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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #185 on: July 17, 2008, 08:11:06 AM »
Yep.  Police are usually more of an investigation unit than crime prevention in many cases.

I guess people like Big Poppa J and others are content with 'playing the odds' and just plain hoping that as the economy gets worse and crime increases, they'll never be a victim to random crime.

Playing the odds, praying, and "hoping" is great for some.  Others prefer to be more self-reliant.

my biggest concern is your statement that 80% of onlookers would give the guy a 'parting shot'

I live in Canada, and the idea of having people walking around with handguns ready to 'pop one off' is disturbing

I fire weapons for a living, from a 25mm bushmaster cannon to a lowly 9mm browning. Firearms are tools designed to kill and they deserve people's utmost care and respect

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #186 on: July 17, 2008, 08:30:49 AM »
my biggest concern is your statement that 80% of onlookers would give the guy a 'parting shot'

I live in Canada, and the idea of having people walking around with handguns ready to 'pop one off' is disturbing

I fire weapons for a living, from a 25mm bushmaster cannon to a lowly 9mm browning. Firearms are tools designed to kill and they deserve people's utmost care and respect
Agree. Especially with an over-developed sense of entitlement like 240 et al., regardless of the backstory they employ. 

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #187 on: July 17, 2008, 08:35:07 AM »

 the idea of having people walking around with handguns ready to 'pop one off' is disturbing


I don't own a handgun but that hasn't stopped me yet!

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #188 on: July 17, 2008, 08:36:40 AM »
my biggest concern is your statement that 80% of onlookers would give the guy a 'parting shot'


He was obviously exaggerating and making a joke. It's not legal to shoot people in the back fleeing during non violent crimes, not in the state he lives (FL) or any other, though each situation is unique and viewed as such when/if it happens.  FL does have "stand your ground" laws which means at least you don't have to run away when your life is threatened, etc. As already posted, we have exact figures for FL, and here is the ACTUAL experience:

"In Florida, almost 444,000 licenses were granted from 1987 to 1997, but only 84 people have lost their licenses for felonies involving firearms. Most violations that lead to permits being revoked involve accidentally carrying a gun into restricted areas, like airports or schools."

BTW, Similarly encouraging results have been reported for all other states where such numbers are recorded. Thus, it's quite clear people in FL who legally carry guns do not do such things regardless of his "80%" statements, and the net effect on crime has been lower crime. Deal with it.

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #189 on: July 17, 2008, 08:38:17 AM »
Agree. Especially with an over-developed sense of entitlement like 240 et al., regardless of the backstory they employ. 

Back story = facts and data. Thus, you are a "don't confuse me with the facts" type. Congrats.  ::)

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #190 on: July 17, 2008, 09:43:57 AM »
Back story = facts and data. Thus, you are a "don't confuse me with the facts" type. Congrats.  ::)
Hmmm. Dismissive attitude? Check? Arrogance? Check. Yeah. That's precisely the kind of person we want to entrust a lethal weapon to. *shakes head* What is wrong with people these days?

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #191 on: July 17, 2008, 09:52:35 AM »
Agree. Especially with an over-developed sense of entitlement like 240 et al., regardless of the backstory they employ. 

I've carried for 11 years now.  I've been shoved at the mall.  I've bad people make threats in various situations.  I have never shown my weapon.

I don't know where you get 'sense of entitlement'.  Never in a million years would I send a 'parting shot', nor do I think 80% of the population would.  Parting shots can = prison time.

I've made it clear in dozens of posts that avoidance and negotiation always come before any kind of contact, and that the goal of any hairy situation is to back your way to a door and get the hell outta there.  I know the cowboy stigma is one that is fun to think about. but most gun owners just see it as another tool to ensure they get home safe.

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #192 on: July 17, 2008, 09:55:54 AM »
Hmmm. Dismissive attitude?

Yes, you do have that. Such as "Especially with an over-developed sense of entitlement like 240 et al., regardless of the backstory they employ."

Yup, dismissive attitude and arrogant combined with "don't confuse me with the facts" approach. That would be you...



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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #193 on: July 17, 2008, 09:58:13 AM »
Yes, you do have that. Such as "Especially with an over-developed sense of entitlement like 240 et al., regardless of the backstory they employ."

Yup, dismissive attitude and arrogant combined with "don't confuse me with the facts" approach. That would be you...
LOL. I'm not the one who is pro-weapons, nor do I posses one. That's the rub, Mr. Heston.   ;)

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #194 on: July 17, 2008, 10:07:14 AM »
LOL. I'm not the one who is pro-weapons, nor do I posses one. That's the rub, Mr. Heston.   ;)


If anyone would like to translate the above into English for me, I would appreciate it. I'm sure the above must make sense to someone besides the author. Thanx. ::)

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #195 on: July 17, 2008, 10:14:50 AM »

If anyone would like to translate the above into English for me, I would appreciate it. I'm sure the above must make sense to someone besides the author. Thanx. ::)
Touche. Poorly written it is, but I'm sure you grasped my meaning. Pretending you didn't/don't is a game for pedants or children.  ;)

/you have a fast draw, but an itchy trigger finger! gotta be careful. might hurt yourself

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #196 on: July 17, 2008, 10:15:15 AM »
I've carried for 11 years now.  I've been shoved at the mall.  I've bad people make threats in various situations.  I have never shown my weapon.

I don't know where you get 'sense of entitlement'.  Never in a million years would I send a 'parting shot', nor do I think 80% of the population would.  Parting shots can = prison time.

I've made it clear in dozens of posts that avoidance and negotiation always come before any kind of contact, and that the goal of any hairy situation is to back your way to a door and get the hell outta there.  I know the cowboy stigma is one that is fun to think about. but most gun owners just see it as another tool to ensure they get home safe.

240, your words ring truest. They do not understand...they must live in the world of 'Mary Poppins'

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #197 on: July 17, 2008, 10:16:19 AM »
Touche. Poorly written it is, but I'm sure you grasped my meaning. Pretending you didn't/don't is a game for pedants or children.  ;)

/you have a fast draw, but an itchy trigger finger! gotta be careful. might hurt yourself

you are truly a chimp of knowledge  :)

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #198 on: July 17, 2008, 10:21:21 AM »
Touche. Poorly written it is, but I'm sure you grasped my meaning.

No, I did not. It makes no sense any way one reads it. Feel free to translate, and i will crush it with actual facts and data, which BTW, you and the ilk have failed to ever supply. Conjecture, emotions, and ignorance of the topic, seems the best you et al can do so far, then have the balls to accuse me - after making exactly the statement you accuse others - of being dismissive, etc. Defensive, yes, guilty as charged, but that's a side effect of supplying a bunch of actual factual info and having it ignored only to repeat myself again.

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Re: Robbery...
« Reply #199 on: July 17, 2008, 10:32:20 AM »

If anyone would like to translate the above into English for me, I would appreciate it. I'm sure the above must make sense to someone besides the author. Thanx. ::)

Glad to help.  You come across as a less than ideal candidate for gun ownership, in spite of your passion for same.

You may be better suited to spamming large boards in order to charge money for what is mostly common knowledge.  Why not give that a shot?