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Author Topic: Do bodybuilders really need supplements and drugs to get big?  (Read 11039 times)
Vince Basile
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« on: July 15, 2008, 05:47:28 PM »

Hapless Pellius wrote that he needed bodybuilding drugs even at 47 years old. He wasn't huge or anything like that, he just felt he needed them to give him an edge in his contact sports that he enjoys. He claims that he has tried just about everything and concludes that drugs are a necessity.

Today on the positive board he enquired about supplements and prohormones and wondered if these chemicals would help him in his quest to stay strong, etc.

I thought that Pellius was the epitome of what the thinking is in bodybuilding and that is very sad. Why is it that an intelligent very experienced trainee believes so much nonsense? Or are the current beliefs nonsense?

I notice that the widely respected Milos has posted the drugs required by advanced bodybuilders to compete at the highest level. It is a frightening revelation. Oh, we have read similar prescriptions from others and what a reality it is that exists in the pro ranks. When the most knowledgeable among us deliver a long list of potent drugs what are the beginners and novices to think? Somehow all that information was distilled from decades of experimenting and reading. The human systems were studied and what bodybuilders discovered were various shortcuts to spur muscle growth. Oh, there is a notion that the chemists know what they are talking about because the language is impressive. In the old days we thought muscles were broken down by exercise and then rebuilt. Nowadays there is another language and this is based on the science behind physiology.

What are we to conclude then about the sport of bodybuilding? If it is true that the top guys and their advisers know exactly how to build muscle then that pretty much kills the sport as we know it. It isn't bodybuilding but chemical enhancement plus some specific training.

The question that Pellius wants to know: Is possible to build size and strength naturally? Yes, it is. Even at his age. When I read what he writes I shake my head. Why? Well, because he is informed. He also has tried just about every training method out there. When he gives up the natural way it is because he is convinced the drugs are necessary. It is as if he has read all the ads for supplements and all the steroid literature. Maybe he studied some of the science, too. If this is true, and Pellius represents the informed and experienced trainee, then what will it take for him to believe it is possible to get big naturally and without supplements? In short, Pellius is a victim of the information age and advertising.

I fear his beliefs are held like those who are believers re religions. I doubt there is any argument that can convince him. He and most muscleheads on internet forums are not open to new ideas. They prefer and insist on relying on their own brains. What a pity that is because they will miss important information. You have to be prepared to abandon a lot of what you thought was fact and reasonable. You have to discard some precious beliefs about even basic ideas in exercise and nutrition.

It is possible to build large muscles and get stronger and do it totally naturally. It really is a simple process. It should also be rapid. There is nothing mysterious about it. However, if you insist on keeping your beliefs then you won't be able to accept the truth. How is it that today with super gyms in every major city that we have people believing they need drugs? We don't even need supplements! I honestly think people have been brainwashed and newcomers get the treatment soon enough when they start associating with muscleheads and reading magazines. If you lie down with dogs you are going to get some fleas. In this case, they are false beliefs and nonsense. When that rubbish is established in your brain you will not be open to reason any more. You will then become a believer and you might very well end up like Pellius. Confused, dismayed and disgraced. After all that has happened to him the last thing he will abandon are the beliefs that caused all the trouble in the first place.

To be continued.....
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knny187
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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2008, 05:52:23 PM »

mersey dotes and dosy dotes and little lambs eat ivy 
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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2008, 05:53:35 PM »

Folks. Could this be the 'Lost Theory of Hypertrophy' that Vince has hinted about for years!? 


Stay tuned and he'll...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzz    Cool
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2008, 06:00:17 PM »

Written by a guy who needed to use D-bol in his BB training....

Priceless!
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« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2008, 06:10:13 PM »

Written by a guy who needed to use D-bol in his BB training....

Priceless!

Zing! 
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« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2008, 06:11:43 PM »

To answer the question.

Yes, they do.
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Vince Basile
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« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2008, 06:36:06 PM »

I see the flotsam are pulling up chairs waiting for the next installment.

I smile that some authorities in bodybuilding have succeeded by promoting false ideas. How is that possible in this enlightened age? How come something as simple as building muscles is not completely understood? How come the chemists have hijacked this sport and decreed that drugs are necessary for rapid growth?

There really is a lot of nonsense circulating as information and knowledge. It is not knowledge.

What we need are philosophical tools to separate the truth from the nonsense. What is the test of truth of a bodybuilding theory? It cannot be word of mouth. Anecdotal experience, no matter now established, may be mistaken.

What we need is to establish what is necessary and what sufficient re building muscles. My point is that drugs and supplements might be sufficient but they are not necessary. Is it any wonder that confusion reigns in the brains of muscleheads?
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Tapeworm
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« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2008, 06:57:38 PM »

Folks. Could this be the 'Lost Theory of Hypertrophy' that Vince has hinted about for years!? 


Stay tuned and he'll...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzz    Cool


The flotsam of Getbig would not understand.  Before we can explore The Theory, we must establish our method of inquiry, and what we mean by "method of inquiry," as well as the nature of inquiry in general.  Any discussion of The Theory is fruitless until we have an understanding of those methods which are suitable and those which are not, and the criteria by which we may assess those methods, as well as examine the viability of that criteria of assessment.  We must distinguish fact from fiction, fraction from friction, and dispell the myths and rumours which have trapped the great sport in a quagmire of ignorance.
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« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2008, 07:02:19 PM »

Anyone else think Basile is starting to sound like Charlie Browns Teacher?
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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2008, 07:04:42 PM »

basile, you dont even know how to build muscle yourself you fat fuck , plz stfu already.
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« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2008, 07:05:15 PM »


The flotsam of Getbig would not understand.  Before we can explore The Theory, we must establish our method of inquiry, and what we mean by "method of inquiry," as well as the nature of inquiry in general.

Is this your excuse for postponing presenting your "wonderful theory" for 2 years+ ?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2008, 07:06:54 PM »

Anyone else think Basile is starting to sound like Charlie Browns Teacher?



"Starting to"?



Vince Basile invented talking like the adults in "Peanuts".


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« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2008, 07:08:33 PM »

Vince, there is no doubt you have been there and done that.  Along with that comes knowledge, no doubt.  If you truly believe we are all misguided, I encourage you to write a book about your ideas.  We are all enthusiastic about training on here, and would love to actually hear what your theories are.   That is of course assuming you could fit in the time beside all the wonderful work you do in Ufology. Cool Cheesy   
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« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2008, 07:12:57 PM »

Vince, there is no doubt you have been there and done that.  Along with that comes knowledge, no doubt.  If you truly believe we are all misguided, I encourage you to write a book about your ideas.  We are all enthusiastic about training on here, and would love to actually hear what your theories are.   That is of course assuming you could fit in the time beside all the wonderful work you do in Ufology. Cool Cheesy   


Vince has been a little busy right now attending the out-of-town funerals of strangers, providing free personal training to underprivileged children, and creating award-winning photographic art.  However, as his schedule allows, I'm sure he'll be publishing his revolutionary theories on hypertrophy in a well-respected, peer-reviewed scientific journal.
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Vince Basile
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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2008, 07:14:41 PM »

What hasn't been explained by most theories is why do so many get so little out of doing so much? If general information about training is shared by just about everyone who lifts weights then how come growth is slow or imperceptible in the vast majority of guys working out? Just about everyone seems to be on a plateau and cannot keep growing.

HIT insists people don't train with enough intensity and are working muscles too frequently. Are they correct about this or were Arthur and Mike mistaken?

Is Stuart McRobert right when he tells us too many overtrain and that is why they don't grow?

Is Bryan Haycock right when he claims you need to train the Hypertrophy Specific Training way?

Maybe you just need to do what works for you?

Ah, the bullshit that passes for knowledge out there. It really is a circus that is perpetuated by muscleheads. I mean, do guys actually absorb and believe that crap about supplements written in muscle magazines!! There must be a lot of knuckleheads out there if they do. I see enough who come to my gym with those same beliefs. It is like a virus in their heads. Advertising is effective but mostly it is exaggerated scamming. You don't need that stuff to get big muscles. What you do need is proper nutrition. It is my view that supplements are not necessary.

 
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« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2008, 07:18:52 PM »


Vince has been a little busy right now attending the out-of-town funerals of strangers, providing free personal training to underprivileged children, and creating award-winning photographic art.  However, as his schedule allows, I'm sure he'll be publishing his revolutionary theories on hypertrophy in a well-respected, peer-reviewed scientific journal.

Not to say he is wrong or doesn't have any good ideas, but the perspective of "You are all wrong, and I am right" tires me.  Especially when you don't actually have an argument.    It reminds me of when I was at a conference this month and we were discussing new treatments for HIV, some reject grad student who was forced into "alternative medicine" bursts in the conversation and says we are all wrong, the trick is a natural herb that grows in some Jungle Roll Eyes.  I have learnt in my 20 years that truth is surely not measured by mass appeal, but all I ever hear from you Vince is the same old criticism without any substantial argument to go along with it. 
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« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2008, 07:20:30 PM »

What hasn't been explained by most theories is why do so many get so little out of doing so much? If general information about training is shared by just about everyone who lifts weights then how come growth is slow or imperceptible in the vast majority of guys working out? Just about everyone seems to be on a plateau and cannot keep growing.

HIT insists people don't train with enough intensity and are working muscles too frequently. Are they correct about this or were Arthur and Mike mistaken?

Is Stuart McRobert right when he tells us too many overtrain and that is why they don't grow?

Is Bryan Haycock right when he claims you need to train the Hypertrophy Specific Training way?

Maybe you just need to do what works for you?

Ah, the bullshit that passes for knowledge out there. It really is a circus that is perpetuated by muscleheads. I mean, do guys actually absorb and believe that crap about supplements written in muscle magazines!! There must be a lot of knuckleheads out there if they do. I see enough who come to my gym with those same beliefs. It is like a virus in their heads. Advertising is effective but mostly it is exaggerated scamming. You don't need that stuff to get big muscles. What you do need is proper nutrition. It is my view that supplements are not necessary.

 



When will you present your Hypertrophy theory? Please don't come with your "scientific method" gibberish excuse once again. A lot of people here = well educated, and a lot more intelligent than you. At the same time, your theory does not need to be comprehended to the finest detail, if your theory is legit, it will work for the finest "knucklehead" in the only testing ground that matters here: The real world  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2008, 07:23:05 PM »

I'm thinking of asking Ron to change my username to "Flotsam".   Grin
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« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2008, 07:24:16 PM »

What hasn't been explained by most theories is why do so many get so little out of doing so much? If general information about training is shared by just about everyone who lifts weights then how come growth is slow or imperceptible in the vast majority of guys working out? Just about everyone seems to be on a plateau and cannot keep growing.

HIT insists people don't train with enough intensity and are working muscles too frequently. Are they correct about this or were Arthur and Mike mistaken?

Is Stuart McRobert right when he tells us too many overtrain and that is why they don't grow?

Is Bryan Haycock right when he claims you need to train the Hypertrophy Specific Training way?

Maybe you just need to do what works for you?

Ah, the bullshit that passes for knowledge out there. It really is a circus that is perpetuated by muscleheads. I mean, do guys actually absorb and believe that crap about supplements written in muscle magazines!! There must be a lot of knuckleheads out there if they do. I see enough who come to my gym with those same beliefs. It is like a virus in their heads. Advertising is effective but mostly it is exaggerated scamming. You don't need that stuff to get big muscles. What you do need is proper nutrition. It is my view that supplements are not necessary.

 


Perhaps no matter how hard you try, you can't overcome what natured intended playing by the rules(not using drugs).  We didn't evolve to resemble our close cousins, the gorilla.   
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Vince Basile
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« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2008, 07:25:14 PM »

Praise and blame will fall off me like rain from an umbrella.

There is a theory of hypertrophy and it should be shared by everyone. That is the duty of all students of hypertrophy. Some acquire good information then keep it to themselves or promote courses and training to profit themselves. That is fine with me. Everyone should benefit if they have acquired knowledge in anything important.

One fruitful path would be to inspect successful trainers and see what their theories are. If enough information is assembled then perhaps an outline of the basic theory can be formed. I suspect there are too many egos involved and competition and jealousy will impede our quest. We may have to abandon the experts because they are hardly open and enthusisatic about sharing what they know.


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« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2008, 07:26:38 PM »

Praise and blame will fall off me like rain from an umbrella.

There is a theory of hypertrophy and it should be shared by everyone. That is the duty of all students of hypertrophy. Some acquire good information then keep it to themselves or promote courses and training to profit themselves. That is fine with me. Everyone should benefit if they have acquired knowledge in anything important.

One fruitful path would be to inspect successful trainers and see what their theories are. If enough information is assembled then perhaps an outline of the basic theory can be formed. I suspect there are too many egos involved and competition and jealousy will impede our quest. We may have to abandon the experts because they are hardly open and enthusisatic about sharing what they know.





Your IQ = probably not very high.
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calfzilla
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« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2008, 07:37:14 PM »

Bob Chick has made a good living and built a great physique from using supplements and hormones, and his health seems fine.  Vince, maybe if more people followed Bob's example there would be fewer people that looked like you or I.  Also it would be cool if your posts were like 60% shorter...that's a lot of shit to read!   
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« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2008, 07:40:37 PM »


Your IQ = probably not very high.


Did he just ask for us to make a theory when he is the one claiming to have the answer? Huh Huh
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« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2008, 07:44:07 PM »

Vince, maybe if more people followed Bob's example there would be fewer people that looked like you or I. 


Fewer people who look like Vince would result in fewer scared people on Australia's beaches.


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« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2008, 07:46:42 PM »

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