Do bodybuilders really need supplements and drugs to get big?

[turner98]

Nice read, Vince. From the videos I watched

Frank Mcgrath: 315x10, 405x5[incline BP], 185lb barbell curls for 8. Gustavo Badell also did 185 for 8 reps on BFTO '05.
Dennis James: 315x10, 405x6, 455x3 on BFTO '98
Levrone: 315x10, 405x6, 455x6 and 455x4, 495x3 on BFTO '98
Tom Prince 'said': I inclined 495 x 6, and 545 x 2. Squatted 755 x 2 and 805 x 1 http://musclemayhem.com/forums/showthread.php?p=409141#post409141
Jay: 225lb for 14, 315 for 9 on One Step Closer. He could of done 225 for more than that, easily and 315 for more than 9, but stopped there.
Ronnie: 315 x 12, 405 x 10, 495 x 5 on The Cost of Redemption.

According to this article, Gunter also a strong fella: 225 for 12 on first set to failure in this workout. "He regularly incline presses 365 for six to eight reps in the off season." Few pros do barbell bench presses, especially precontest, but Glass believes heavy compound lifts are best for muscle density and that those who rely on isolation lifts and machines look flat on bodybuilding contest stages. Schlierkamp does his first set with 225 for 12 reps, his second with 275 for nine and his third with 295 for eight. All the while, at Glass' urging, he keeps up a brutal pace." http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KFY/is_1_21/ai_98542690/pg_2?tag=artBody;col1

In his first video, Ronnie could do barbell rows with 315 with excellent form, but it was obvious not too much more. As he got bigger, he got stronger: 495lb x 10 in The Unbelieveable. That is incredible. If suckmymuscles posts are anything to go by, Kovacs could do even more: 528lb for 8, I think. Kovacs was bigger than Ronnie. Would you expect then, someone bigger and more muscular than even him, to lift more? eg. more than 528lb for 8. Yes! I would. All the biggest animals are the strongest[overall strength, and not how agile or dexterous they are]. Can there be people who look relatively less impressive or not as big, but lift a big weight? Yes!

I think it's a combination of strength, training like a bodybuilder, genetics—definitely, and not being a fat mother-fucker!

[candidizzle]

VINCE IF YOU WANT RESPECT YOU HAVEE TO DISPLAY SOME KIND OF KNOWLEDGE THAT ISNT BASED OFF SPECULATION ALONE.

YOU NEED T LEARN THE BIO MECHANICS AND CELLULAR LEVEL RESPONCE TO WEIGHT TRAINING

THIS IS ALL OUT THERE FR YOU TO LEARN

YET YOU ACT LIKE YOU MUST THEORIZE ON WHAT MAKES "HYPERTROPHY" OCCUR

THERE NEED BE NO THEORIES

IF YOU WANT TO KNOW THE SCIENCE IS OUT THERE FREE FOR THE TAKING

[Charlys69]

i know to many so called Training-experts who never made it in the Gym......

[Vince B]

Candidizzle is a student of hypertrophy but fails to grasp the importance of the philosophy of science. Is there such as thing as the philosophy of hypertrophy? I haven't read any specific such discipline but surely there must be one if there are competing theories to account for the phenomena that need to be explained in exercise science.

As long as I can remember, bodybuilders always had theories that guided their training. What trainees found was that bodies and muscles, specifically, adapted to lifestyles and exercise regimes. Why does this happen? Well, that is probably a long, detailed story. The evolutionary thinkers can jump in here and make suggestions about what might have happened that helped us survive as a species. I use thought experiments to conjecture about what might have happened. Here is one example.

Suppose a primitive human was out hunting for prey some 500,000 years ago. Suppose that individual got into a life and death struggle but was unable to snag the prey. The hunter went to bed hungry and weary that night and in the morning would have been totally exhausted and sore as heck from the struggle the previous day. Could our survivor use his muscles yet again to help him catch prey and therefore survive? Well, if he couldn't then we as humans probably wouldn't be here today. I don't think it is clear why we get sore from exceptional feats or activities but we do. That soreness can be extreme the following days and it is as if the body is telling us to take it easy. Well, can we make a life or death sustained exertion with really sore muscles? I know the answer and our survival depends on it. Should we train again before a muscle has recovered and is no longer sore?

There is another way we can use conjecture to analyze phenomenon. Suppose we look at lifestyle and see what kind of physiques result in populations who do various things. If we look at paintings of ancient people we find that gastrocnemius muscles were well developed in soldiers and even common people. Unless artists exaggerated what they saw then we can conclude that carrying loads and walking a long way and doing this all the time will result in large muscles. Would we find that obese people have large gastrocnemius muscles? Do the women who carry heavy loads on their heads also develop large calf muscles? If not, then why not?

If we examine people who do really hard physical work do we find that they have large muscles? I suppose some of the hardest working laborers are bricklayer's helpers. They mix concrete and deliver materials to more than one bricklayer. They do a lot of lifting and keep it up for most of their working day. Do we find that they are muscular? Yes, of course, but an interesting thing is they aren't that big. So the muscular size of populations is related both to lifestyle and demands made on the muscles. Unless laborers continually increased the loads they were lifting then an optimum size would occur and no extra mass need be there. The student of hypertrophy will know that muscles can adapt to daily stresses and do not need rest days to grow. Does that mean bodybuilders should train muscles daily? Should athletes train every day? What about swimmers?

It should be clear that speculating on such things is not very fruitful for the student of hypertrophy. Would the laboratories of scientists be preferred? Candidizzle is convinced that all the knowledge that is required is there in the literature of exercise science. Does this mean the scientists have studied large muscled champions and know everything about their muscles? Well, there is a problem there because few if any studies have been done on Mr Olympia champions or even Mr Universes. One of the peculiar things about academia is that there is a bias about brawn. It is okay to make inquiries into strength but no one seems interested in why muscles hypertrophy and keep growing like what happens to bodybuilders. You would think this would be something that should be explained already. Surely we know whether those huge muscles are explained by hypertrophy or hyperplasia or perhaps both? Surely we know the exact composition of the champions from fibers right down to molecules?

Perhaps we cannot do invasive studies on living adults to see what their muscles are composed of. It would be an easy matter to do studies on rats, cats and even fowl to tell us what we want to know. Then it is a simple matter to extrapolate those results and, voila, we comprehend human maximum hypertrophy.

One of the undeniable things about the science is that it is very interesting when perusing the animal studies. What exactly can we make of the studies of Antonio and others re those fowl? Surely the hypertrophy seen was amazing. Can humans duplicate what the fowl achieved? What of Gonyea's favourite cat? Did she explain satellite cell hyperplasia or not? Is the size of limb muscles in rats anything near what is achievable in humans?

What do the scientists tell us about using various chemicals to promote muscle growth? Is there everything we need to know if we want to go down that path? Surely all the details of hypertrophying muscles are textbook entries in undergraduate exercise physiology? No student of hypertrophy would need to consult muscle gurus who prescribe formulae for success in bodybuilding.

[candidizzle]

lol. you are so pretentious its funny.

vince basile = Gandhi+Jesus+mlkjr+ Buddha + Einstein


i salute you oh great one

[calfzilla]

Candidizzle is a student of hypertrophy but fails to grasp the importance of the philosophy of science. Is there such as thing as the philosophy of hypertrophy? I haven't read any specific such discipline but surely there must be one if there are competing theories to account for the phenomena that need to be explained in exercise science.

As long as I can remember, bodybuilders always had theories that guided their training. What trainees found was that bodies and muscles, specifically, adapted to lifestyles and exercise regimes. Why does this happen? Well, that is probably a long, detailed story. The evolutionary thinkers can jump in here and make suggestions about what might have happened that helped us survive as a species. I use thought experiments to conjecture about what might have happened. Here is one example.

Suppose a primitive human was out hunting for prey some 500,000 years ago. Suppose that individual got into a life and death struggle but was unable to snag the prey. The hunter went to bed hungry and weary that night and in the morning would have been totally exhausted and sore as heck from the struggle the previous day. Could our survivor use his muscles yet again to help him catch prey and therefore survive? Well, if he couldn't then we as humans probably wouldn't be here today. I don't think it is clear why we get sore from exceptional feats or activities but we do. That soreness can be extreme the following days and it is as if the body is telling us to take it easy. Well, can we make a life or death sustained exertion with really sore muscles? I know the answer and our survival depends on it. Should we train again before a muscle has recovered and is no longer sore?

There is another way we can use conjecture to analyze phenomenon. Suppose we look at lifestyle and see what kind of physiques result in populations who do various things. If we look at paintings of ancient people we find that gastrocnemius muscles were well developed in soldiers and even common people. Unless artists exaggerated what they saw then we can conclude that carrying loads and walking a long way and doing this all the time will result in large muscles. Would we find that obese people have large gastrocnemius muscles? Do the women who carry heavy loads on their heads also develop large calf muscles? If not, then why not?

If we examine people who do really hard physical work do we find that they have large muscles? I suppose some of the hardest working laborers are bricklayer's helpers. They mix concrete and deliver materials to more than one bricklayer. They do a lot of lifting and keep it up for most of their working day. Do we find that they are muscular? Yes, of course, but an interesting thing is they aren't that big. So the muscular size of populations is related both to lifestyle and demands made on the muscles. Unless laborers continually increased the loads they were lifting then an optimum size would occur and no extra mass need be there. The student of hypertrophy will know that muscles can adapt to daily stresses and do not need rest days to grow. Does that mean bodybuilders should train muscles daily? Should athletes train every day? What about swimmers?

It should be clear that speculating on such things is not very fruitful for the student of hypertrophy. Would the laboratories of scientists be preferred? Candidizzle is convinced that all the knowledge that is required is there in the literature of exercise science. Does this mean the scientists have studied large muscled champions and know everything about their muscles? Well, there is a problem there because few if any studies have been done on Mr Olympia champions or even Mr Universes. One of the peculiar things about academia is that there is a bias about brawn. It is okay to make inquiries into strength but no one seems interested in why muscles hypertrophy and keep growing like what happens to bodybuilders. You would think this would be something that should be explained already. Surely we know whether those huge muscles are explained by hypertrophy or hyperplasia or perhaps both? Surely we know the exact composition of the champions from fibers right down to molecules?

Perhaps we cannot do invasive studies on living adults to see what their muscles are composed of. It would be an easy matter to do studies on rats, cats and even fowl to tell us what we want to know. Then it is a simple matter to extrapolate those results and, voila, we comprehend human maximum hypertrophy.

One of the undeniable things about the science is that it is very interesting when perusing the animal studies. What exactly can we make of the studies of Antonio and others re those fowl? Surely the hypertrophy seen was amazing. Can humans duplicate what the fowl achieved? What of Gonyea's favourite cat? Did she explain satellite cell hyperplasia or not? Is the size of limb muscles in rats anything near what is achievable in humans?

What do the scientists tell us about using various chemicals to promote muscle growth? Is there everything we need to know if we want to go down that path? Surely all the details of hypertrophying muscles are textbook entries in undergraduate exercise physiology? No student of hypertrophy would need to consult muscle gurus who prescribe formulae for success in bodybuilding.

Why are these posts so long?   

Who's reading these? 

[tu_holmes]

Why are these posts so long?  

Who's reading these? 

No one... That's the point.

[pellius]

I thought this was the positive board. No insults or name calling though I think adjectives like "hapless" is acceptable as it describes more of a condition like "clueless," "luckless," "ignorant." But personal insults and name calling should be reserve for the G&O board.

Vince, I wish I could train at your gym. Some of the equipment pics you post on IA makes me salivate.

I wish I caught this thread earlier so I can respond to each of your posts so excuse the randomness. I do think there is only one correct theory of muscle hypertrophy. I know, I know, we are all different but only in specifics. Biologically, physiologically we are identical. Heart, lungs, need oxygen, protein, carbohydrates.... If you have a bacterial infection you need an antibiotic. I happen to be allergic to penicillin but can take tetracycline. General principles the same: antibiotic. Specific varies from individual to individual.

Frequency, duration and intensity as far as I know are the only three variables vis-a-vis training protocols. These will vary from individual to individual and even among yourself as condition changes daily, i.e., stress, amount of rest, nutrition.... Finding the proper dosage is the rub.

Nutrition supplements are not needed but they make things easier. When I was a teen I just couldn't keep weight simply by eating. Also, I didn't have the time. But I could always pound a weight gain shake between meals and even after meals when I couldn't take another bite of solid food I could still drink. Vitamins are not necessary if you eat a varied diet. I don't. A multi insures, I believe, that I'm getting some of everything -- or at least more than I would from eating. I can never be sure if my boron or manganese intake is up to snuff.

Sure, construction workers movers and brick layers are usually stronger than the average bear. But it's not because of the work they do. If one of your gifts are physical strength then you are more likely to do things that take advantage of that predisposition. Dr. Doug McDuff termed this genetic selection. A guy built like Woody Allen ain't going to move your piano. It's like saying playing basketball makes you taller.

Your body doesn't like muscle beyond normal levels, meaning what it needs to do whatever it is it does. It likes fat. From your body's perspective fat is stored energy and a good thing. I think most, if not all of us, have an unlimited capacity to store fat naturally. Not so with muscle. Even at rest muscle requires continuous metabolic suppport: blood supply, oxygen, nutrients, etc. Your heart and lungs are organs that don't change that much with exercise. They get more efficient but there's point of diminishing returns. Give it the slightest reason and your body will shed muscle. When your leg is in a cast you don't lose fat. Atrophy takes place at a rapid rate. I think one of the health problems bodybuilders face is not steroids per se but just being so big. It's a tremendous strain on your cardiovascular system carrying an extra 70 pounds of muscle.

I started training with weights when I was twelve. But did pushups, pullups and even tied a belt around my Tonka trunk and did curls. I wanted to be a fighter and wanted to be strong. I wanted to be Bruce Lee when I was a tot and thought he was huge and muscular. Not because of low self-esteem as you contend why anybody goes into bodybuilding but because I was inspired. I saw that and said, "Crap, I want to do that! I want to be like that!"

I've tried every training protocol that I can think of. I'm sure I'm missing something. But I wasn't finding, or didn't know where to look, for alternatives. I want to kick butt now. I don't have unlimited time. Anabolic steroids work. My first cycle was 3 dbols and day and I felt it.
Athletes are a pragmatic lot. They don't have either the time or desire to be a research scientist. When they find something that works they jump on it. Every high level athlete in a sport that requires strength uses chemical enhancement. No matter how good you get without them you can always get better with them and most want to see how far they can go.

I think it was OK that you went to Lee Priest's grandfather's funeral. I don't know why people give you a hard time about that. Unless a family specifically request a private ceremony you do them honor by attending. I watched Bruce Lee's funeral on PBS and I bet 98% of them attending were not invited. They went anyway to honor him. To have so many people attend my own funeral service would please me. In a sense even more so if I didn't know them personally because somehow I had touched their lives without ever even meeting them. I would be pleased and honored if you attended my funeral even if you shake your head in regret and bemoan that the misguided, confused and hapless Pellius should die without grasping your wisdom. I have my limits. Both physically and intellectually.

I know some will say you only went to the funeral to be in Lee Priest's aura. Perhaps so. But I've learned to not try to judged motives as much as to judge behavior. Motives I can never be sure of. Concrete behavior is, well, concrete. I prefer someone do good for selfish reasons then to do bad with good intentions. I also find that people tend to judge their own motives very generously and others more critically.

I wish I could sit down at your gym and discuss various issues with you. Also to soak in your stories and experiences. If for no other reason than that you are probably one of the few who have the attention span to have read this far without dozing off.

Eternally hapless,

Pellius

 

[Vince B]

Pellius contributes in style and elevates the thread.

About the funeral I went to. Funerals are for the living and not the dead. Thus, I went to support Lee. Being a Mr Canada made me feel that Lee and I have won national titles and have that bond and there is no need for anything else. A couple of guys from my gym know Lee personally and I represented them, too. A pity they couldn't attend but they didn't know where it was, etc. Thanks to the internet I found out all I needed to know. I took photos, too, and Lee personally thanked me for being there and for taking the photos. The flotsam on the G&O forum love to stir me so have to dig pretty low to do so. Lee told me his grandfather, Owen, would have been proud to have strangers there. The guy was friendly and was quite the man. Lee really missed being in Australia and was absent for way too many years because he had to stay in the US for over 7 years to gain his green card. Lee told me he might be moving back to Australia so we will see what he does.

This thread was moved from the G & O forum at my request because I won't debate dickheads there on serious matters. Perhaps one of the moderators here can clean it up a bit. I have had jerks impersonate me on other forums and I find that sort of behaviour rather infantile. Thus, the reference to the feeder site was not me there but an impostor who was banned immediately for posting rubbish.

[Deicide]

Theory of Hypertrophy=good genetics, lift hard, eat, rest, repeat..key is good genetics.

[Vince B]

Pellius makes several statements that I would bet are shared by just about everyone who lifts weights seriously.

Do we need supplements? Well, I would bet that we do not. Not even extra vitamins. I remember how an English academic at UBC, Lionel Pugh, challenged me about vitamins. I told him I took B and C and he told me the sewers of Vancouver were coated in vitamins. That made me pay more attention to studies and not muscle magazines. Truth be told, muscle mags are still peddling supplements and more today than in the past.

You see, folks, you don't take my word for supplements but look at the professional nutrition literature. That is the only source of excellent and up to date information that approaches knowledge about what good nutrition is. A decent textbook for graduate students is usually at least 3 inches thick and containing extensive bibliography at the end of each chapter. The only shortcoming of those texts is the paucity of information concerning advanced bodybuilding. That doesn't mean you should extrapolate and just double or triple the recommended daily requirements for vitamins, minerals and things like protein.

I have witnessed the logic of taking extra just in case. The main worry should be getting a balanced diet and not specific supplements. It is my conjecture that no supplements are required for rapid, sustained muscular growth. If one knows enough about nutrition there will be no necessity to ingest extra chemicals. Do some of the supplements work as advertised? Well, the only thing I know for sure re those supplements is they cost a lot of money and bodybuilders should do the minimum and not the maximum when it comes to nutrition. Why believe you need so much protein to build muscle? I haven't seen the requirement in the literature. Is it any wonder, then, that academics still regard bodybuilders as mostly brawn?

More tomorrow.

[candidizzle]

vince, are you familiar with the term "rate of digestion" and how it applies to various types of protein ?

surely you are not.

leanr about it. then youll realize that SOME supplements can be very beneficial. 

[Vince B]

Theory of Hypertrophy=good genetics, lift hard, eat, rest, repeat..key is good genetics.

Yes, this idea is up there with 'do what works for you'. The problem here is most of us have absolutely no idea what our genetic potential for building muscle is. How would anyone know what his genetic potential is?

My example of suspect genetics is Larry Scott. The guy is narrow and quite ordinary if you see him walking around. However, even in his late 60s his arms are still quite large and impressive. What people underestimated about Larry was his high intelligence and extreme motivation that saw him forge new ways to get bigger and bigger. He was almost a god when he won the first Mr Olympia in 1965. I was in York Pa at the time trying to get a job with York. In those days Joe was seen as the bad guy who exaggerated stuff and claimed to be the trainer of champions. I would say that Larry clearly transcended any genetic potential anyone in those would have given the Mr Idaho who showed up at Vince's Gym in Studio City in the early sixties. Gironda wasn't impressed at all and after Larry told him he had just won the Mr Idaho contest Vince replied, "So what!" Ah, the good old days in the Irongame.

The point is we don't know what our potential is for growing muscles. Oh, we might have a notion about it after blasting away for about 5 or 10 years. We never know if it was our lack of potential or maybe we just didn't train right. Today there is also those blasted drugs and this is another factor in the quest for size. Everyone has another excuse for not getting really big.

[candidizzle]

this is the positive board, vince. if you cant refrain from resorting to personal attacks you can leave.


if all you want to know is whats necessary, you must define necessary.

[candidizzle]

Vince, I am new to this site but I have scoured the forums for years. I say this with the most sincerity, good sir. Shut the fuck up already.

Love, Dustin.

keep it positive

[dustin]

keep it positive

lol I didn't realize I was in here until after I posted... ah well, I sent him my love

He's just annoying as hell. Keyboard warrior if you will. Ramble, ramble, holier than thou, elitist this, bogus theory with no credibility that.... it's extremely annoying. Can you block people on this site because I don't want to even see Vince's username on my screen anymore.

[candidizzle]

lol I didn't realize I was in here until after I posted... ah well, I sent him my love

He's just annoying as hell. Keyboard warrior if you will. Ramble, ramble, holier than thou, elitist this, bogus theory with no credibility that.... it's extremely annoying. Can you block people on this site because I don't want to even see Vince's username on my screen anymore.

i wish

[pellius]

Again, I don't think you need vitamin supplements provided you eat a well balanced diet. I, like most, don't. The answer is that we should but I just don't have the time to shop and cook or for that matter even the knowledge to what the nutritional value all foods have. I know some, but not enough. My belief is that you need vitamins but getting more than necessary, or high dose vitamins, won't make you super man. Vitamins are just micronutrients in food. Getting more than necessary won't help just like eating more than you need will make you fat. But if you are deficient in a vitamin you won't really know for sure by just how you feel but it will manifest itself somehow. Say, you are deficient in calcium; you won't know until years later when your bones become brittle. Say, you're deficient in the B-vitamins. You will feel sluggish and lethargic. You'll live and continue with your day to day activities -- even training -- but you won't be a optimum health. It was discovered that many track athletes, by virtue of their training, we're not getting enough magnesium. Magnesium supplements improved their performance. Personally, high dose fish oil has made a quantitative difference in how I feel. I've had surgeries to both knees and both shoulders. When a Dr. suggested Omega 3 fish oils it did wonders for my joints and general inflammation and stiffness. Of course, I could get the same effect by eating salmon 3 times a week but it's easier for me to pop the gel caps.

Supplements, are just that. Supplements. They are a convenient and easy way to get the micro and macro nutrients whether in the form of a muti-vitamin or a meal replacement shake. With multis I just look at it as cheap insurance.

For those who don't like reading Vince's post or even the sight of his name offends your tender  sensibilities, Ron, as far as I know, has a policy that it is left to your discretion as to which post you choose to read. All participation and even non participation is optional.
 

[Vince B]

Well, if I can debate this with Pellius this will be sufficient. I am up against some resistance because the false beliefs are held as if they are facts. Some learning in bodybuilding and nutrition can be dangerous.

Let me tell you a story about a German bloke who used to hang around English Bay in Vancouver in the sixties. That was my beach and what a setting it is. There are lots of high rise apartments there and the beach really is a meeting place for lots of people. In those days you could park nearby but today you have to pay to park there. Times don't always change for the better.

Well, this German was into being healthy and subscribed to the notion that we all needed extra vitamins. He swore he loved carrot juice and that it was doing wonderful things for his health. I warned him that he was ingesting too much vitamin A and this vitamin stores in the body. He just kept drinking up to 2 litres of this 'magic elixir' every day! One day he disappeared and many days later he told us he had to go to the hospital because he got sick from the vitamin A. He didn't need any extra vitamins but no one could tell him that.

Pellius argues that he needs extra vitamins and if he is deficient in some he suffers in various ways. Well, what is the test of truth that this is so? I haven't read anything he wrote that supports his conjecture.

In Australia there is an ad for vitamins that is plainly misleading. The ad asks if people feel 100%. If they don't feel 100% then they might need vitamins! What a load of rubbish. How would anyone know if they feel 100%? Again, this is just plain bullshit and gullible people can be persuaded to buy things they don't need. These same people might be convinced they need to cleanse their systems from time to time.

Pellius claims he doesn't have the time to eat properly so he supplements his diet with vitamins and minerals. All he is doing is wasting his money. If he is a student of nutrition he should be able to buy the basic foods that will provide what he needs. There is no NECESSITY to take supplements. The simple test is to not take those supplements and see what happens. Pellius probably can't do this because he fears long term damage if he doesn't get the essential nutrients. Well, if he doesn't know which foods to eat then I can't help him.

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitamina.asp

[Vince B]

Pellius wrote:
 I've tried every training protocol that I can think of. I'm sure I'm missing something. But I wasn't finding, or didn't know where to look, for alternatives. I want to kick butt now. I don't have unlimited time. Anabolic steroids work. My first cycle was 3 dbols and day and I felt it.
Athletes are a pragmatic lot. They don't have either the time or desire to be a research scientist. When they find something that works they jump on it. Every high level athlete in a sport that requires strength uses chemical enhancement. No matter how good you get without them you can always get better with them and most want to see how far they can go.

Do strength athletes always need to use steroids to keep their strength? I can't understand why someone who is 6 feet tall and under 190 would believe he needs steroids. That is unlikely in the extreme. What probably happened in Pellius' case is he came to believe he needed more drugs because the Dianabol was no longer working. Eventually he came to embrace the nonsense believed by the drug gurus that post on the internet. Too many people fool around and mess up their systems instead of using natural processes to get the results they want. There is no necessity for anyone to use loads of drugs to get bigger and stronger. If you are well over 40 and believe this then it will be almost impossible to dislodge those beliefs. Such people will probably take those false beliefs to their graves. A sensible person tries to get rid of falsehoods that they accept. This is not so easy because the literature re the drugs many take is not helpful. That doesn't mean you listen to drug gurus in gyms and on the internet. That is just plain crazy. Why abandon the scientific process just to justify foolish behaviour? 187 pounds is hardly evidence that the drugs even work. Experimenting with more and more drugs is evidence that all logic and reason have been abandoned.

[candidizzle]

What probably happened in Pellius' case is he came to believe he needed more drugs because the Dianabol was no longer working.

vince steroids do not stop working. thats completely false.

[Vince B]

I am not going to debate steroids with anyone on Getbig. Period. I maintain that one can get big without any help from drugs or supplements. Nothing posted here has changed my mind one bit.

[chaos]

OK, I just noticed this thread is on The Positive Board now.............
be-f'ing-have.

As of "Todays" posts........this thread will be controlled by The Positive Board mods.

I'm not going to go back and clean it up, if another mod wants to, that's up to them.

[candidizzle]

I am not going to debate steroids with anyone on Getbig. Period. I maintain that one can get big without any help from drugs or supplements. Nothing posted here has changed my mind one bit.

theres nothing to debate on that point, vince. seroids do not quit working. in fact, the longer your on them the better they work. its one of the few exceptions to the rule of "down regulation" in the body.  in fact the reaction is quite the opposite.

[dustin]

OK, I just noticed this thread is on The Positive Board now.............
be-f'ing-have.

As of "Todays" posts........this thread will be controlled by The Positive Board mods.

I'm not going to go back and clean it up, if another mod wants to, that's up to them.

I'll step up and apologize for the sailor talk and insults lol, I'll save it for the other forums.

But as for all this nonsense... that's all it is - nonsense. A brother don't know nuthin' bout steroids.