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Author Topic: Do bodybuilders really need supplements and drugs to get big?  (Read 12057 times)
chaos
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Ron "There is no freedom of speech here" Avidan


« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2008, 09:28:04 PM »

theres nothing to debate on that point, vince. seroids do not quit working. in fact, the longer your on them the better they work. its one of the few exceptions to the rule of "down regulation" in the body.  in fact the reaction is quite the opposite.
So you don't believe in the whole "receptor burnout" theory?
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« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2008, 09:31:48 PM »

So you don't believe in the whole "receptor burnout" theory?
not at all, thats pure balogna ! every study and every reputable endocrinologist and every hournal of endocrinology and all real world experiences all strongly disagree with that.

andorgen receptors never stop working. and increasing the number of androgenss upregulates AR densiity.  as well as the fact that the higher the androgens the more active your satellite cells become, the more blood volume you get, the more lipolysis you get, better glusoe metabolism and glycolysis,  more gh (igf-1), less shgb,.... and the more you add and the longer you keep your levels eevated the more all of these effects become pronounced.

 Smiley
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« Reply #77 on: July 22, 2008, 09:42:28 PM »

not at all, thats pure balogna ! every study and every reputable endocrinologist and every hournal of endocrinology and all real world experiences all strongly disagree with that.

andorgen receptors never stop working. and increasing the number of androgenss upregulates AR densiity.  as well as the fact that the higher the androgens the more active your satellite cells become, the more blood volume you get, the more lipolysis you get, better glusoe metabolism and glycolysis,  more gh (igf-1), less shgb,.... and the more you add and the longer you keep your levels eevated the more all of these effects become pronounced.

 Smiley
What is the cause of Palumboism? Shrinking arms/legs, discolored skin, abnormally large midsection, mishaped muscles.........you know the drill?
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« Reply #78 on: July 22, 2008, 09:46:02 PM »

i can only speculate


but, if i was to speculate

i would say a combonation of poor genetics+ mega doses of steroids + mega doses of GH

but of course, thats the common speculation

as for the physioloigical explanation?
i couldnt even begin to speculate


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chaos
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« Reply #79 on: July 22, 2008, 09:52:28 PM »

i can only speculate


but, if i was to speculate

i would say a combonation of poor genetics+ mega doses of steroids + mega doses of GH

but of course, thats the common speculation

as for the physioloigical explanation?
i couldnt even begin to speculate



Several bbers looked good early in their careers, only to fall victim later. I don't think it is genetic.

Why would a bber who has a good physique go to mega doses? In order to get bigger, right?  Could that be receptor overload? Too much, too fast?
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« Reply #80 on: July 22, 2008, 09:54:50 PM »

you cant over load an androgen receptor.

what might happen is high dose aas gets converted to too much estrogen or too much dht which results in some fucked up side effects.
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Vince Basile
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« Reply #81 on: July 22, 2008, 10:14:55 PM »

The dogma and beliefs are well established in the minds of many on this forum. Some make definitive statements about physical processes as if they are world authorities on the subject. We are unlikely to have world scientific authorities on a bodybuilding forum. The curious thing is the scientists don't seem to have a forum where they debate steroids and hypertrophy.

I used to wonder if scientists could come up with ways to shortcut the growth process. So far, only the drug 'doctors' have done that. I say no thanks to the drug path. Too many side effects to make that attractive.
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chaos
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« Reply #82 on: July 22, 2008, 10:17:20 PM »

The dogma and beliefs are well established in the minds of many on this forum. Some make definitive statements about physical processes as if they are world authorities on the subject. We are unlikely to have world scientific authorities on a bodybuilding forum. The curious thing is the scientists don't seem to have a forum where they debate steroids and hypertrophy.

I used to wonder if scientists could come up with ways to shortcut the growth process. So far, only the drug 'doctors' have done that. I say no thanks to the drug path. Too many side effects to make that attractive.

Did you use steroids to become Mr Canada 1970?

Not a flame, a serious question.
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Vince Basile
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« Reply #83 on: July 22, 2008, 10:28:29 PM »

I started training in February, 1959. About March 1970 I started using 2 Dianabol tablets a day. Did that for about 6 weeks then went off the drugs. Worried about losing too much size so resumed just before the contest which was at the end of May that year. I have used Dianabol a couple more times after that with mild gains. Today I am confident I would exceed any gains I made using Dianabol.


* 1975 Double biceps resized.JPG (45.61 KB, 555x768 - viewed 361 times.)
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chaos
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« Reply #84 on: July 22, 2008, 10:33:19 PM »

I started training in February, 1959. About March 1970 I started using 2 Dianabol tablets a day. Did that for about 6 weeks then went off the drugs. Worried about losing too much size so resumed just before the contest which was at the end of May that year. I have used Dianabol a couple more times after that with mild gains. Today I am confident I would exceed any gains I made using Dianabol.
How tall are you?

You look good, not overly bloated or unhealthy looking.
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Vince Basile
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« Reply #85 on: July 22, 2008, 10:45:08 PM »

I am 5 - 9 1/2. About average. I grew two inches when I was 18. Never had good nutrition at home but did when I went to a military college in St Jean Quebec on an officer training plan.

I don't have the cuts that are expected, today, either. I thought I looked fairly big at 210 pounds two weeks out from that contest. I was about 190 at the Mr Canada show in 1970. Luckily it was in Vancouver and not back east where all the big guys lived!


* Vince Basile Mr Canada 1970 crop.jpg (125.38 KB, 1024x824 - viewed 329 times.)

* 1966 contest in Vancouver.jpg (114.61 KB, 623x1024 - viewed 296 times.)
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« Reply #86 on: July 23, 2008, 03:17:10 AM »

I am 5 - 9 1/2. About average. I grew two inches when I was 18. Never had good nutrition at home but did when I went to a military college in St Jean Quebec on an officer training plan.

I don't have the cuts that are expected, today, either. I thought I looked fairly big at 210 pounds two weeks out from that contest. I was about 190 at the Mr Canada show in 1970. Luckily it was in Vancouver and not back east where all the big guys lived!

All Dball
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« Reply #87 on: July 23, 2008, 05:33:38 AM »

I started training in February, 1959. About March 1970 I started using 2 Dianabol tablets a day. Did that for about 6 weeks then went off the drugs. Worried about losing too much size so resumed just before the contest which was at the end of May that year. I have used Dianabol a couple more times after that with mild gains. Today I am confident I would exceed any gains I made using Dianabol.

Looking great.
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[
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« Reply #88 on: July 23, 2008, 09:42:57 AM »

The dogma and beliefs are well established in the minds of many on this forum. Some make definitive statements about physical processes as if they are world authorities on the subject. We are unlikely to have world scientific authorities on a bodybuilding forum. The curious thing is the scientists don't seem to have a forum where they debate steroids and hypertrophy.

I used to wonder if scientists could come up with ways to shortcut the growth process. So far, only the drug 'doctors' have done that. I say no thanks to the drug path. Too many side effects to make that attractive.

vince i pray to you at night and worship in the direction of canada 4 times a day
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Vince Basile
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« Reply #89 on: July 23, 2008, 09:48:35 AM »

When I won Mr Canada I wrote that I wanted to beat Frank Zane in a contest. When Frank came to my penthouse in 1979 he told me I don't have to visit Disneyland because I have been in Fantasyland all my life. When I look at my photo from that contest I felt I could have done well had I continued with my training. However, I was unwilling to do the drugs like Decadurabolin that the champions back then were using. I can tell you that if I had been training with guys like Zane I would have been motivated and who knows what I could have done. Anyway, those days are gone so it is all just conjecture. I do know that if I knew what I know now I could have given those guys a good go. Not Arnold and Sergio who were from another planet. Imagine growing up when those guys appeared. I can remember going to a gym and then seeing the latest photo of Sergio and going straight home because I thought what was the point. I would never approach the level of that giant and few since have, either.
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Vince Basile
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« Reply #90 on: July 23, 2008, 09:50:48 AM »

Candid, no need to light any candles for me in your church. Just keep reading the literature and you might be able to apply all that information and build a decent physique. If you fail you can be a personal trainer extraordinaire.

I hope this helps.
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« Reply #91 on: July 23, 2008, 12:19:50 PM »

Vince,

How much of your bodyweight gains do you attribute to steroids in 1970? You commented that you were worried about losing size when off them. Just curious.

The physique you had for Mr Canada was rock solid, btw.
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« Reply #92 on: July 23, 2008, 12:35:45 PM »

Vince, there are so many issues that you bring up that I would like to discuss and debate with you but I have noticed a trend where you do not address the point or counterpoint being made. It seems as if you just hear what you expect to hear and continue on rebutting an opinion or point of view that was not made.

You do that to Candi and others that choose to engage. To give a specific example in my case: In my first post on this thread I randomly tried to address issues brought up and I admit since I came into the fray late it was meandering and my language was less than precise. Still, I believe my points were clear. On the subject of nutritional supplements and vitamins I stated at various points in my thread:

"Nutrition supplements are not needed but they make things easier."

"Vitamins are not necessary if you eat a varied diet."

In my second post I began my first sentence with the much more emphatic declaration:

"Again, I don't think you need vitamin supplements provided you eat a well balanced diet."

I then elaborated a bit further by saying:

"My belief is that you need vitamins but getting more than necessary, or high dose vitamins, won't make you super man."

Now, I would have thought that when I say you need vitamins in the above statement that it was implicit that they can come solely from food sources. Perhaps I need to spell everything out with ponderous detail. Still, the point was clear that I don't believe in getting extra vitamins.

Now I would think that any reasonable person would think that my stance on vitamins were made abundantly clear. Yet, in response, you blithely reply:

"Pellius argues that he needs extra vitamins...."

Please address this. It would seem impossible to have any meaningful discussion when one just hears what they want to hear.

You seem to think, and have broadly declared, that everyone here has already made up their minds. Their dogmatism is beyond redemption. You are here fighting a battle already lost but your courage and spirit compells you to fight the good fight.

Methinks, my Aussie friend, doth protest too much. Doth indeed.
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Vince Basile
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« Reply #93 on: July 23, 2008, 05:42:06 PM »

Pellius, the issue is whether an aspiring bodybuilder needs supplements such as vitamins and minerals. To that I say they are not necessary and what you wrote above agrees with my view. It is another matter whether Pellius, who might not be living the ideal life re meals, etc., is getting enough nutrients. Your point is that if you suspect your diet is inadequate then you take the supplements. My view is still a bit controversial because I would claim you might not be missing anything important. Again, what is the test of whether you are getting all you need via what you eat? That is probably difficult to determine. If you are well read in nutrition then you might have a good idea of any inadequacies. What I have seen with bodybuilders is they absorb all manner of information that really isn't solid. For example, they will believe they need various nutrients in specific amounts when there is no universal support for those levels. I cite protein here and that continues to be a controversial subject and quite an expensive nutrient to buy. The supplement companies churn out volumes of information re what bodybuilders need but where is the support for their claims? There isn't much in the literature at all. Oh, if you dig around you can find some studies that support supplementation. I am not arguing that supplements don't assist bodybuilders. I am arguing that they are probably not necessary.

I think there is another issue here. Bodybuilders seems to want to do whatever is optimum re building muscles. Thus, whatever might enhance and support building muscles is embraced by musclemen.

I well remember my mate Dave Tremblay having those same concerns. He would visit my home and when invited to stay for dinner would decline and produce cannisters of foul smelling powders that were supposed to be good for him. He ended up having skin problems and not that much muscle size. I met Dave years later in Vancouver when he owned a gym. I was surprised to see that he was now a vegetarian and his skin problems had improved. Well, sometimes ageing improves the skin. However, his diet was vastly different and we laughed about the amount of protein he used to ingest. Plus, he was taking supplements like Brewer's yeast in large amounts. He would stir a dozen eggs in a container and add ingredients and that was a meal. Goodness me, but how did his system handle all those things? The truth is he overloaded his system with too much protein and other nutrients. So, the lesson here is not to saturate your system with nutrients just because you believe they are going to be good for you.

While we are on that subject, let me address the misconception junk food. My claim is there is probably no such thing as junk food. Either something is food and can be used by the body or it is junk and has no nutritional value at all. The only food that comes close to being junk is mushrooms. They have no calories and just a few minerals. This is a good thing to eat if you want to fill yourself up and not ingest too many calories. Hamburgers are foods that could sustain people for quite a while. No one could survive and be healthy if all they ate were French fries. So, it is possible to have a junk diet. That is what people are really talking about when they say things are junk food. It would be possible to set up a McDonald's experiment where people are locked up like the Big Brother show. These hapless subjects would be able to eat only so-called junk food. They would have a gym there and there could be an incentive for the person who gained the most lean mass. Naturally, no drugs or supplements would be allowed. The question is could a bodybuilder eat at McDonald's exclusively and be healthy and gain lean mass? I have no doubt about this at all. That show about Up Size Me or whatever it was called was a sham. The jerk stopped exercising and did everything he could to increase his chances for poor nutrition. Had he selected wiser and continued his activities such as walking he would have not ended up like he did. The amusing thing is that show helped McDonald's because they changed what they offered people re their menus. The bottom line is people have to be informed and then take responsibility for lifestyles and diets.

If Pellius wants to debate me then please be specific in your claims and counter what I post and we can discuss what we don't agree on. It is clear from what he writes that he is an educated person who is informed about bodybuilding and nutrition. Let us discuss those beliefs and ideas that he has.
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« Reply #94 on: July 24, 2008, 03:02:42 AM »

In any discussion or debate I think one of the objectives is not so much winning or losing or convincing one or the other to their way of thinking but simply clarity. To be sure that all concerned is talking about the same thing and all points of view are clearly and rationally presented and stated.

A good example is when people conflate or fail to distinguish between gay and same sex marriage. As Arnold once said, "I support gay marriage as long as it's between a man and a woman."

It seems after all that we are not that far apart in regard to nutritional supplements.

It does please me greatly that in regard to junk food we are kindred spirits. I often find myself a lone voice in the wilderness (no comparison to pre-WW2 Churchill intended). Junk food, broadly speaking, is often used to describe food that is high in fat. Being in a nation where 2 out of 3 (and growing) people are overweight such calorie dense food is best avoided. But if I were a Sudanese grubbing for UN scraps I'd tend to go for the crisco oil or butter sticks rather than the corn meal. A gram of fat having over twice the caloric value of both protein and carbohydrates would not go unnoticed.

I firmly believe that a bodybuilding trying to put on supra levels of muscle mass needs far more protein than the average Joe who spends more of his free time in front of the idiot box than in the gym. But that in no small part is due to the fact that a growing bodybuilder simply needs far more calories period. So that applies to carbohydrates and fats as well. The ideal macro nutrient profile of those increased levels of calories is a subject for a different debate.

I do want to make mention that in 1998 I was diagnosed as bordering on anemia. Iron supplements and B12 shots quickly cleared up the problem. I still take supplemental sublingual B12 tablets (methyl version only) as a form of cheap insurance. Which reminds me of something: I spoke to a very amiable chap from Australia who had a substantial GNC bag stuffed with supplements. We got to talking and he complained about how expensive vitamins and such are in his country. That seems to be one of your issues with supplements. Needless and  unnecessary cost. The multi-vit I take is $14.00 for a 100 tabs. They recommend two tabs a day but I only take one. This is over a 3 month supply for $14.00 which, even for someone with my modest means, is also a form of cheap insurance.

I do want to address your ideas on resistance training for the purposes of increasing size, strength and functional ability.
 
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Vince Basile
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« Reply #95 on: July 24, 2008, 07:53:59 AM »

Pellius, can we agree on the test for deciding whether we need to supplement our diets or not? Sometimes people get problems digesting food and therefore can have deficiencies. So that is always something to look out for.

However, what is the test for determining how much protein we need? I think Mike Mentzer and Arthur Jones argued that bodybuilders typically ate 2 to 4 times as much protein that they actually needed for any growth. I doubt trial and error is sufficient here because taking way more than is needed proves only sufficiency and not necessity. Scientific tests done on pro bodybuilders is what is needed but we are unlikely to have any such thing because I know of no scientist who is in the slightest interested in that subject. The few that might be interested would probably lose interest because of the drugs those bodybuilders use.

I don't subscribe to high levels of protein. Perhaps 50 grams a day is more than adequate as long as the proteins are the right kind. Science and not gym lore should decide the issue.

One question remains. Is there any argument that anyone can put to you such that you will abandon the notion that you require drugs to assist your quest for strength and size? From what I have read it seems clear that you have been on a plateau for a very long time and those drugs are used merely to maintain what you have. That seems a high price to pay for the meagre results you are getting.
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« Reply #96 on: July 24, 2008, 09:04:35 AM »

science and studies show that aroun 2.5 grams per kilogram of bodyweight is optimum protein intake. thats what the science says, not "gym lore". 50 grams per day is insufficient for a non training sedentary grandmother.
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« Reply #97 on: July 24, 2008, 11:40:45 AM »

science and studies show that aroun 2.5 grams per kilogram of bodyweight is optimum protein intake. thats what the science says, not "gym lore". 50 grams per day is insufficient for a non training sedentary grandmother.

When protein intake is insufficient what happens exactly?
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« Reply #98 on: July 24, 2008, 12:23:25 PM »

well, if protein intake is just suboptimal, then the repercussion would be sub optimal pace of growth. if protein intake is INSUFFICIENT, the the repercussion is going to be loss of muscle.
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« Reply #99 on: July 24, 2008, 04:44:23 PM »

science and studies show that aroun 2.5 grams per kilogram of bodyweight is optimum protein intake. thats what the science says, not "gym lore". 50 grams per day is insufficient for a non training sedentary grandmother.

Exactly. If some hippy-looking dude comes up to you with his swole 120lb frame and scraggly hair, telling you that you only need to get 50g of protein a day regardless if you're a bodybuilder... do not heed his advice Wink

If you don't consume enough protein then no protein synthesis will occur. When you exercise, depending on what you've eaten prior, you'll probably leach amino acids from your muscles. CATABOLISM!!! Why go to the gym only to vigorously work backwards and reduce the amount of muscle you have? Doesn't sound worthwhile to me.
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