Your understanding of natural selection

[Nordic Superman]

I had a discussion with my father last night, he's one who believes in evolution through natural selection, yet proclaims he is a Christian...

I asked him to explain natural selection, and it turns out he really doesn't believe in Darwinism evolution via natural selection at all - he had a misunderstanding that is critical to the theory.

Any religious folk here who believe in natural selection?

If you don't, what is your understanding of it? If you don't believe AND don't understand, why are you so blindly ignorant?

[tonymctones]

I had a discussion with my father last night, he's one who believes in evolution through natural selection, yet proclaims he is a Christian...

I asked him to explain natural selection, and it turns out he really doesn't believe in Darwinism evolution via natural selection at all - he had a misunderstanding that is critical to the theory.

Any religious folk here who believe in natural selection?

If you don't, what is your understanding of it? If you don't believe AND don't understand, why are you so blindly ignorant?

im religious and believe in evolution through natural selection and dont see why that frustrates you. Again darwin himself, lyell, and mendel were all clergy so just b/c you believe in one doesnt mean you cant believe in the other. Ive said this many times i consider myself a christian, would others? I dont know nor do I care I think its very ignorant and arrogant of a religious person to believe that their interpretation of the Bible or whatever it may be to be the one true right interpretation.

[Nordic Superman]

im religious and believe in evolution through natural selection and dont see why that frustrates you. Again darwin himself, lyell, and mendel were all clergy so just b/c you believe in one doesnt mean you cant believe in the other. Ive said this many times i consider myself a christian, would others? I dont know nor do I care I think its very ignorant and arrogant of a religious person to believe that their interpretation of the Bible or whatever it may be to be the one true right interpretation.

It doesn't frustrate me, and I'm fully aware of C. Darwin's religiousness.

So, you accept that natural selection has no end goal and steps in evolution are unconscious natural selection?

Or are you a believer in non-Darwinian evolution?

[tonymctones]

It doesn't frustrate me, and I'm fully aware of C. Darwin's religiousness.

So, you accept that natural selection has no end goal and steps in evolution are unconscious natural selection?

Or are you a believer in non-Darwinian evolution?

wow you are the only person on this board that while having a conversation about religion and evolution pointed out that in evolution humans are not the end goal....cudos

yes and yes to your questions...heres a question just b/c something seems arbitrary does it mean that it is?
ps natural selection is not unconcious and not up to chance it will allow for the best characteristics and traits for the enviroment to survive everytime.
pps if it doesnt frustrate you then why the 

[Nordic Superman]

wow you are the only person on this board that while having a conversation about religion and evolution pointed out that in evolution humans are not the end goal....cudos

yes and yes to your questions...heres a question just b/c something seems arbitrary does it mean that it is?
ps natural selection is not unconcious and not up to chance it will allow for the best characteristics and traits for the enviroment to survive everytime.

pps if it doesnt frustrate you then why the 

I guess the wasn't warranted.

Darwinian natural selection is a unconscious process.

It is the characteristics that can be altered due to random mutation (which is a deep topic within itself).

If you don't believe the assertion that natural selection isn't concious then you're not a subscriber of Darwinian evolution via the process of unconscious, automatic, blind and non-random selection.

This was my fathers misunderstanding of Darwinian evolution; believing natural selection is concious.

[tonymctones]

I guess the wasn't warranted.

Darwinian natural selection is a unconscious process.

It is the characteristics that can be altered due to random mutation (which is a deep topic within itself).

If you don't believe the assertion that natural selection isn't concious then you're not a subscriber of Darwinian evolution via the process of unconscious, automatic, blind and non-random selection.

This was my fathers misunderstanding of Darwinian evolution; believing natural selection is concious.

I never said it was concious, natural selection is also dependent on the enviroment and natural selection has many other aspects than simply random mutations. Concious would mean that it has an end goal which i said it doesnt, unconcious i took to mean that it has no goals at all but it does its goal is to allow the best adapted individuals to survive in a given enviroment...simply a misunderstanding.

[MCWAY]

I had a discussion with my father last night, he's one who believes in evolution through natural selection, yet proclaims he is a Christian...

I asked him to explain natural selection, and it turns out he really doesn't believe in Darwinism evolution via natural selection at all - he had a misunderstanding that is critical to the theory.

Any religious folk here who believe in natural selection?

If you don't, what is your understanding of it? If you don't believe AND don't understand, why are you so blindly ignorant?

Perhaps, this article can shed some light on the situation.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/is-natural-selection-evolution

[Nordic Superman]

I never said it was concious, natural selection is also dependent on the enviroment and natural selection has many other aspects than simply random mutations. Concious would mean that it has an end goal which i said it doesnt, unconcious i took to mean that it has no goals at all but it does its goal is to allow the best adapted individuals to survive in a given enviroment...simply a misunderstanding.

Natural selection has no concious goal for an organism to live.

Perhaps, this article can shed some light on the situation.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/is-natural-selection-evolution

Random mutation among other things provide the mechanism for adding new genetic information to a genome.

[Deicide]

Perhaps, this article can shed some light on the situation.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/is-natural-selection-evolution

Perhaps this website can shed some light on the situation...

http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/

[tonymctones]

Natural selection has no concious goal for an organism to live.

Random mutation among other things provide the mechanism for adding new genetic information to a genome.

its a difference of interpretation of the term, we are argueing the same thing.

adding new genetic information is not the only driving force behind the mechanisms of evolution.

[Nordic Superman]

its a difference of interpretation of the term, we are argueing the same thing.

adding new genetic information is not the only driving force behind the mechanisms of evolution.

I'm not sure what you mean.

Darwinian natural selection is absolutely not conscious in any shape or form. That's a fact.

Like I said I'm unsure what you mean so the above sentence might not be applicable to you.

[tonymctones]

I'm not sure what you mean.

Darwinian natural selection is absolutely not conscious in any shape or form. That's a fact.

Like I said I'm unsure what you mean so the above sentence might not be applicable to you.

its just a different interpretation of the term unconscious in this aspect...you take it to mean that it is completely random and without reason right? well in a way it does have reason and the reason is that the individual survived b/c it was best suited to the enviroment. it is the enviroment that is random but natural selection didnt strive to let certain individuals live over others so it wasnt a conscious force put upon a population. like i said we are argueing the same point natural selection is random on a level b/c it doesnt favor one over another for arbitrary reasons but on another level it is not b/c the individuals best suited for an enviroment will always survive. you see what im saying we are argueing the same point

[Nordic Superman]

My belief is that natural selection is absolutely not a random process., but there are random parts to it, e.g. the accumulation of new genetic material through random mutation and virus/bacteria vectors. I believe in Darwinian natural selection which states that natural selection is neither conscious nor random.

Non-randomness doesn't equal being concious. Natural selection is an unconscious non-random process which can result in evolution.

That is where I stand just to clarify.

[wavelength]

I had a discussion with my father last night, he's one who believes in evolution through natural selection, yet proclaims he is a Christian...

I asked him to explain natural selection, and it turns out he really doesn't believe in Darwinism evolution via natural selection at all - he had a misunderstanding that is critical to the theory.

Any religious folk here who believe in natural selection?

If you don't, what is your understanding of it? If you don't believe AND don't understand, why are you so blindly ignorant?

Since you again talk of belief in a scientific theory, have you decided yet what you actually mean by it?
This was your reply when I asked you in a different thread:

You've picked a good point here, my abilities in explaining exactly what I mean clearly leave a lot to be desired.

And to answer your question, yes I am religious and I acknowledge the scientific theory of evolution. There is absolutely no contradiction there.

[Nordic Superman]

Since you again talk of belief in a scientific theory, have you decided yet what you actually mean by it?
This was your reply when I asked you in a different thread:

And to answer your question, yes I am religious and I acknowledge the scientific theory of evolution. There is absolutely no contradiction there.

I'll ignore the first question until I am capable

For the second, do you believe in Darwinian evolution via non-random, unconscious natural selection, or another school of thought?

[wavelength]

I'll ignore the first question until I am capable

For the second, do you believe in Darwinian evolution via non-random, unconscious natural selection, or another school of thought?

That's my point, such a question cannot be answered without proper context. I don't "believe" in evolution theory at all, there is nothing to believe in. I accept it as the current biological theory on the evolution of life. Consciousness is not a topic of biology, at least not its essential part. So speaking of conscious or unconscious selection is beyond the realm of what the theory of evolution is about in the first place.

[Deicide]

That's my point, such a question cannot be answered without proper context. I don't "believe" in evolution theory at all, there is nothing to believe in. I accept it as the current biological theory on the evolution of life. Consciousness is not a topic of biology, at least not its essential part. So speaking of conscious or unconscious selection is beyond the realm of what the theory of evolution is about in the first place.

Du bist aber ein komischer Vogel...

[wavelength]

Du bist aber ein komischer Vogel...

What part of the post suprises you given the context of me having written it?
Discussions on a higher level would be highly appreciated but unfortunally one must always start at point zero when memory loss is so apparent. 

[Deicide]

What part of the post suprises you given the context of me having written it?
Discussions on a higher level would be highly appreciated but unfortunally one must always start at point zero when memory loss is so apparent. 

Dann verzeihst Du mir mein hohes Alter....

Do you at least concede that consciousness is the net result of many millions of years of biological development arising from random mutation and the consequent natural selection of those positive, favourable mutations?

[Nordic Superman]

That's my point, such a question cannot be answered without proper context. I don't "believe" in evolution theory at all, there is nothing to believe in. I accept it as the current biological theory on the evolution of life. Consciousness is not a topic of biology, at least not its essential part. So speaking of conscious or unconscious selection is beyond the realm of what the theory of evolution is about in the first place.

Consciousness on the topic of natural selection basically means is there a God/higher power involved.

If natural selection was conscious there must be a God.

Speaking of conscious or unconscious selection is critical to Darwin's theory of evolution through natural selection. It is Darwin's theory I subscribe to.

[wavelength]

Do you at least concede that consciousness is the net result of many millions of years of biological development arising from random mutation and the consequent natural selection of those positive, favourable mutations?

Nopes.
As always, this is only true for the biological aspect of it. It seems to be one of the necessary preconditions of human life that there is a biological aspect to it. But that does not mean that's all there is to it. Speaking of memory loss, this was elaborately discussed in several threads. The proof is very simple.

[wavelength]

Consciousness on the topic of natural selection basically means is there a God/higher power involved.

If natural selection was conscious there must be a God.

Speaking of conscious or unconscious selection is critical to Darwin's theory of evolution through natural selection. It is Darwin's theory I subscribe to.

If you speak in scientific terms, you will not find real consciousness (divine or not) in anything. Simply because, being a scientist you must reduce consciousness to its scientific aspect in the first place.

The problem is that what you have in mind is a "higher being", which really is nothing more than the image of a human with super power. This super human than decides, which way to go in evolution. If you go against that image in your mind, you are completely right, it's nonsense.

[Deicide]

Nopes.
As always, this is only true for the biological aspect of it. It seems to be one of the necessary preconditions of human life that there is a biological aspect to it. But that does not mean that's all there is to it. Speaking of memory loss, this was elaborately discussed in several threads. The proof is very simple.

Your proof is opinion, nothing more, and is disputed my many world renowned thinkers and scientists.

[Nordic Superman]

If you speak in scientific terms, you will not find real consciousness (divine or not) in anything. Simply because, being a scientist you must reduce consciousness to its scientific aspect in the first place.

The problem is that what you have in mind is a "higher being", which really is nothing more than the image of a human with super power. This super human than decides, which way to go in evolution. If you go against that image in your mind, you are completely right, it's nonsense.

Wow, your ambiguous debating style is like grating my eyes on a cheese grater

By consciousness, I mean: being controlled.

[Deicide]

Wow, your ambiguous debating style is like grating my eyes on a cheese grater

By consciousness, I mean: being controlled.

Get used to it; Mr. Wienerschnitzel doesn't like talking facts...