Bringing the weaker parts to match with the strong.

[D-bol]

I got a classic problem: wide frame and good pecs with comparatively smaller arms.
What I am trying to do is, in fact, stop all chest and back training for 3 to 6 months, while putting additional effort into my arms and shoulders.

My hypothesis is that it should bring up the size of my arms, while hopefully retain same size in my pecs and back, or even if reduced slightly as long as the general shape remains.

I am all for aesthetics and balance and don't care about max size.

I'd appreciate your opinions and/or experience with this approach. Anyone tried similar? Results?

Thx

[wes]

I would still train the stronger bodyparts but just to maintain muscle.

What is your current training routine and how much do you weigh?

[thewickedtruth]

always attack your weaker areas to help bring up your total overall numbers.. if they're hte weakest link..they'll be the ones holding you back no matter how much you develop the others.

[Bluto]

so what plan do you have to bring you arms up

[Zach Trowbridge]

I got a classic problem: wide frame and good pecs with comparatively smaller arms.
What I am trying to do is, in fact, stop all chest and back training for 3 to 6 months, while putting additional effort into my arms and shoulders.

My hypothesis is that it should bring up the size of my arms, while hopefully retain same size in my pecs and back, or even if reduced slightly as long as the general shape remains.

I am all for aesthetics and balance and don't care about max size.

I'd appreciate your opinions and/or experience with this approach. Anyone tried similar? Results?

Thx

Define "extra effort."  What do your delt and arm workouts look like now?  What are you changing?  If you're planning on just doubling the workouts for those in place of chest and back work, don't.  You can train them more frequently, but the volume per session should come down.

For example, let's say you do 4 exercises for delts and 3 each for bis and tris, 3 sets per exercise.  If you start training twice a week, you would need to drop to probably 3 exercises for delts and 2 for bis and tris each time you train, leading to more overall volume through the week, but your body probably can't handle just completely doubling the volume.

Again, I'm curious, what exactly is your plan?  We can tweak it from there.

[D-bol]

Sorry for delayed reply.

Shoulder routine: Smith Press, 75%, 3-5 sets of 10-12
                        Dumbell Press, 100%, 3 sets of 10 reps
                        Lateral Raises, 100%, 5 sets of 10-12 reps
                        Rear Lateral, 100%, 5 sets of 10 - 12 reps
                        Dumbell Shrugs, 100%, 5 sets to failure

Biceps routine: Barbell Press, 100%, 5 sets of 15,12,10,10,10
                     Dumbell Curls, 100%, 5 sets of 16-20 reps (1/2 per arm)
                     Incline Simultaneous Dumbell Curls, 100%, 3 sets of 10
                     Machine Preacher Curls, one arm, 75%, 5 sets to failure
                     Cable EZ curls, both hands, 50%, 5 to failure

Triceps routine: EZ french press, 100%, 3-5 sets of 8-10 reps
                      Overhead db, 100%, 5 sets of 10
                      Weighted dips, 120%, 5 sets of 8-10
                      Cable Press, 100%, 5 sets of 10
                      Overhead 45* rope extensions, 50%, 5 sets to failure

each part - twice a week.
abs after each workout.
legs only as part of cardio (genetics)

I am 195-200 pounds at 5'8''.
Been training in total over 10 years, non-competitive.

Zach, by extra I mean a combination of heavier weight, where possible (i.e. without significant sacrifice of the form).



                     

[D-bol]

My logic is that, by eliminating chest and back I can train arms and shoulders twice a week with extra effort as there will be more overall energy available as well as less fatigue on these parts directly as they are no longer involved with chest and back training

[DK II]

"legs only as part of cardio (genetics)" is a fucking weak excuse, don't you think?

training legs is fundamental for overall development of the body, even of arms.

I really doubt that your legs are superbig and cut with nice separation just by genetics.

Also, i think that dropping large muscle groups like chest and back and only train arms and shoulders will NOT make you able to reach your goals.

Try different approaches for your arms like constant strains with cable exercise, more reps, slower reps, higher weight with very strict form etc to really work your arms.

You're looking for a quick fix, and this will not happen. Sorry.

[D-bol]

Donkey, you are speaking as if on assumption that you know what my goals are.
My legs are not super big, but I don't want them to be. They have pretty good definition and overall shape, full bellies and well proportioned. They quickly respond to weights, so I don't train them, cuz they will always overshadow my upper body and what I am trying to achieve is exactly that - bring up my upper body.
I said before, my goal is proportion and aesthetics. I have sufficiently wide frame and pecs but I don't want that wide barn with matchstick arms physique - we have few guys like this at the gym, looks like a freak circus.

[DK II]

Donkey, you are speaking as if on assumption that you know what my goals are.
My legs are not super big, but I don't want them to be. They have pretty good definition and overall shape, full bellies and well proportioned. They quickly respond to weights, so I don't train them, cuz they will always overshadow my upper body and what I am trying to achieve is exactly that - bring up my upper body.
I said before, my goal is proportion and aesthetics. I have sufficiently wide frame and pecs but I don't want that wide barn with matchstick arms physique - we have few guys like this at the gym, looks like a freak circus.

What i say is that NOT training legs will NOT help your arms, in fact it will be bad for arm development.

How long have you been training? Everyone has certain problems somewhere, bt if you just have the patience and go on, you will see results. Try different approaches for your arms but DO NOT STOP training bodyparts, this will backfire on you.

Are you juicing as well? (Just assuming because of the name).

[GoneAway]

To be honest, unless you're on steroids (even if you are), I would cut down on the number of sets, reps and exercises you're doing for shoulders and arms. Sets: 3, Reps: 10 - 12 for everything, Exercises: 2 per musclegroup.

Rear delts are overrated for non-competitive BBers, as most people only view you from the front and see your side delts pop out. Press and Side lateral raise are all you need. Pull the dumbbells over your head during side laterals (ala Bertil Fox) if you want to involve the traps some more.

Barbell curl and dumbbell curl or hammer curl for biceps. Overhead press and dips for triceps, keeping the body as straight as possible to minimise chest work. Focus on form, ecc/con contraction, and go to failure on each set. Warm up properly before each set.

[jpm101]

GoneAway and I kind of agree on some training points. Though the applied performance may differ a bit.

Believe you are doing too many sets and reps for the arms. More than 20 sets for triceps & biceps is overkill. (is the first exercise for the biceps BB curl rather than BB press?) Another hint, do not go to failure on any movement, most specially on a smaller muscle group like the arms. Keep the last hard rep in the bank, as it were.

You do not have to reduce the time spent on other body parts. Though judging from your shoulder work, it might be a great idea. Something more  like 6 to 10 sets total for a single muscle group workout.

Take a week away from any direct arm workout. I would advise two weeks, but do not think you could wait that long. Than try BB cheat curls (if a EZ bar suits you better....than OK).  This is with a slight dip of the knees and slight heave to start the bar moving. Every rep is in the cheat style, not just the last few of a set. Can build up the poundage each workout. Second bicep exercise would be the sitting DB concentration curl.  One arm at a time, with the elbow resting against the inner thigh. Can do a straight set with one arm or alternate the right and left arm on the same set.  Three sets of each, with the rep range from 6 to 9. Twice a week.

Triceps can start with dips. Have a Bud keep your feet/body straight up and down (180 degrees or even a little more forward) during the set. Something like tricep bench dips, but much more serious on the triceps. Leaning too far forward brings the anterior delts and pec's too much in play. You want to make dips a prime tricep exercise only. Next is the lying one arm DB extension. From the overhead lying position, bring the DB down towards the cheat area and touch the pecs lightly each rep. Rather than along side the head, which is the usual method. As above, 3 sets of each with 6-9 reps. Twice a week. In any event, you want to work the arms together and one at a time, hence the BB and DB movements. Actually there are dozens of combo's to try out for the arms. If these exact exercises do not follow your desires, than pick something else. But keep the set/rep scheme the same. Good Luck.

[local hero]

]

Rear delts are overrated for non-competitive BBers, as most people only view you from the front and see your side delts pop out. Press and Side lateral raise are all you need. Pull the dumbbells over your head during side laterals (ala Bertil Fox) if you want to involve the traps some more.

[quote author=GoneAway link=topic=229648.msg3232347#msg3232347 date=1219152510





only my opinion but i think your wrong about the rear delts, if u want to keep your shoulders healthy , inline and balanced id always keep training them..

regarding the arm training question,, after so many years training you wont put much more size on your arms no matter what training routines u use... only way to do it is to increase your bodyweight.. and as funny as it sounds, heavy squats kind of make everything bigger, altho its hard to get your head around it.

[Zach Trowbridge]

Sorry for delayed reply.

Shoulder routine: Smith Press, 75%, 3-5 sets of 10-12
                        Dumbell Press, 100%, 3 sets of 10 reps
                        Lateral Raises, 100%, 5 sets of 10-12 reps
                        Rear Lateral, 100%, 5 sets of 10 - 12 reps
                        Dumbell Shrugs, 100%, 5 sets to failure

Biceps routine: Barbell Press, 100%, 5 sets of 15,12,10,10,10
                     Dumbell Curls, 100%, 5 sets of 16-20 reps (1/2 per arm)
                     Incline Simultaneous Dumbell Curls, 100%, 3 sets of 10
                     Machine Preacher Curls, one arm, 75%, 5 sets to failure
                     Cable EZ curls, both hands, 50%, 5 to failure

Triceps routine: EZ french press, 100%, 3-5 sets of 8-10 reps
                      Overhead db, 100%, 5 sets of 10
                      Weighted dips, 120%, 5 sets of 8-10
                      Cable Press, 100%, 5 sets of 10
                      Overhead 45* rope extensions, 50%, 5 sets to failure

each part - twice a week.
abs after each workout.
legs only as part of cardio (genetics)

I am 195-200 pounds at 5'8''.
Been training in total over 10 years, non-competitive.

Zach, by extra I mean a combination of heavier weight, where possible (i.e. without significant sacrifice of the form).



                    

Way, way too much volume, especially at 100% max effort done twice a week.  There is a very low likelihood that you can recover completely to do that twice a week.  My guess is that most likely, you will end up overtraining and LOSING strength and size because of it.  Refer to my original post for recommendations on volume and intensity levels.

[D-bol]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

What I gather from your comments is that:

1) stopping other body parts will not improve my overall balance
2) my current pro gramme is too much
3) heavy compound exercises, like squats, do in fact increase overall development, including arms

I prolly agree on point 2.
On point 1: maybe so, but I think that some sort of maintenance program would probably be better. Any suggestions? Believe me, I don't really want to stop training chest and back - a great mental hurdle to overcome - but I was reasoning that they would continue overtaking my arms in development.
On 3 I am a bit confused. Not saying it is not true, but could you give me some further explanation on the mechanics of this?

Donkey, I am not juicing now. Hope I was, would make it much easier;)

[GoneAway]

Another hint, do not go to failure on any movement, most specially on a smaller muscle group like the arms. Keep the last hard rep in the bank, as it were.

Why?

This guy's arms and shoulders are already lagging. He may not be going to failure already, which might be the problem. In general, it makes sense to train at your maximum efforts.

Everything else we pretty much agree on. I wouldn't put the reps lower than 8, though, as you're bordering on strength training.

[smaul]

On 3 I am a bit confused. Not saying it is not true, but could you give me some further explanation on the mechanics of this?

Doing compound exercises is the best way to stimulate GH and test release from the body, definitely include squats, even if it is only a few sets a week, make them heavy!

[Zach Trowbridge]

Doing compound exercises is the best way to stimulate GH and test release from the body, definitely include squats, even if it is only a few sets a week, make them heavy!

x2.  Leg training and squats in particular boost HGH and IGF-1 production, therefore making it easier to add muscle all over.  Don't skip them.

[Zach Trowbridge]

Why?

This guy's arms and shoulders are already lagging. He may not be going to failure already, which might be the problem. In general, it makes sense to train at your maximum efforts.

Everything else we pretty much agree on. I wouldn't put the reps lower than 8, though, as you're bordering on strength training.

He could be overtraining them already, which if the workout he posted is the one he's doing now, is pretty likely.  So stopping short of failure would probably be beneficial from a de-loading standpoint.

Plus, like Lee Haney says, "stimulate, don't annihilate."

[jpm101]

GoneAway:

It would seem logical, at first glance, to train at your maximum effort every rep of every set. But the drawback being, you must have better than maximum recovery power after each workout. Most people do not. And even when using joy juice, the recovery abilities may still be lacking. Joy juice does not always work well ( or very little at all...that dirty word again...genetics) for a lot of people. All this reflects on the status of the CNS to recover, progress and improve with regards to muscle size and strength.

As far as training to the failure it's self goes, most of the PRO's and other top BB'ers know to save something in the bank. You will see "training videos" of some of the Pro going to a point of failure (with some help) but that is usually for video purposes only. Passing this off as one of their major training secrets. They are trying to sell video's and spice up their filmed workouts. Not always so in their real training life. Pro BB'ing is a business. Video's, books, clown clothing, supplements, etc are all part of their business.


There is near failure, momentary failure and complete muscle system failure. With  different levels in between. All related to the capacity of the CNS. Complete muscle system failure (the frying of the CNS) is very serious with regards to body internal functions and health. Not too many people can achieve that state before the body shuts down, either by passing out, throwing up and enter a  level of shock. Heavy high rep squaters come to mind in lifting. With the famous barf bucket near by.

The negative point of any workout would be trying to achieve a point of failure when hitting a much small muscle group, like the arms. Again, some of the genetic blessed can handle this. Most trainee's can not. The arms will tend not to progress in size, or even loose size, when over loaded this way. And this after years of serious training. Good Luck.

[pumpster]

Why?

This guy's arms and shoulders are already lagging. He may not be going to failure already, which might be the problem. In general, it makes sense to train at your maximum efforts.

Everything else we pretty much agree on. I wouldn't put the reps lower than 8, though, as you're bordering on strength training.

Agreed, the whole idea that failure should be avoided is bizarre, in fact it's quite the opposite. The body adapts thru growth only when greater degrees of stress make adaptation necessary. Failure at least some of the sets and other similar methods. Basic common sense-the absence of increasing stress leaves the body quite happy to maintain nothing more than status quo. Very very basic shit-Schwarzenegger basically said the same thing in PI when he mentioned that the body isn't used to the 7th, 8th reps, which are an essential, basic ingredient to growth.

The best strategy is alot less volume coupled with INCREASED intensity, including going to failure much of but not all of the time.

[pumpster]

Doing compound exercises is the best way to stimulate GH and test release from the body, definitely include squats, even if it is only a few sets a week, make them heavy!

Going heavy with moderate reps on *any* effective exercise either isolation or compound will yield results, there's nothing magical or better about compounds. In fact sometimes the isolations are the better alternatives ie for arms there's no question from my experience that isolation exercises like curls and extensions are the bottom line size builders for most BBs, as reflected by their prime positions in the routines of great BBs past and present.

[smaul]

Going heavy with moderate reps on *any* effective exercise either isolation or compound will yield results, there's nothing magical or better about compounds. In fact sometimes the isolations are the better alternatives ie for arms there's no question from my experience that isolation exercises like curls and extensions are the bottom line size builders for most BBs, as reflected by their prime positions in the routines of great BBs past and present.

I'm not sure I agree with this.  Most bodybuilders praise deadlifts and squats, obviously isolation exercises are important but I stronly feel that without doing the compound exercises you are short-changing yourself.

[D-bol]

so whats the verdict?
keep compound exercises or lay em off?
don't u guys think that it is more of a psychological thing to be off bench and squats for 6 months?
we are so tuned into these exercises that we think that if we stop them for a while our legs and pecs will immediately deflate and disappear, and we dread the thought...
honestly, i was off all training for a year when i had to work overseas...i lost size, yeah, but general shape retains quite well...if you are nutty, the muscles you've built aren't gonna disappear overnight

[_bruce_]

The body's proportions are defined by genetics... the more you max out your body the more your natural shape will come through.