Post pics of the furthest you can get being natural!

[The True Adonis]

Adam, I am sure it has happened, thats because many organizations have different rules.

For example, OCB allowed/allows the use of over the counter pro-hormones, the WNBF does not - thats just one example there are a million other examples.  So yes it does happen!

I think Doug Miller is suspect with Pro-Hormone or something else.  Kurt Widener possibly too.  Deadlifting nearly 700 lbs at 5 percent bodyfat does raise a flag or two in my opinion.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3517641807498259118

[BIG ACH]

good point.

I guess what I said...AND living in the U.S. because that includes the ban of those steroids and others for "bodybuilding" purposes.

LOL, I feel ya dawg!!!

To be honest this debate will never end, cause people have so many different definitions of natural!

[The True Adonis]

Bobby Pandour

[BIG ACH]

I think Doug Miller is suspect with Pro-Hormone or something else.  Kurt Widener possibly too.  Deadlifting nearly 700 lbs at 5 percent bodyfat does raise a flag or two in my opinion.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3517641807498259118

Doug Miller never took pro-hormones, if anything his size shows that he uses the real thing.  But I really do believe Doug is natural.  www.dougmillerpro.com

[The True Adonis]

Bobby Pandour again.

[BIG ACH]

I also wanted to add - I'm eating Chicken McNuggets right now, and an M&M's McFlurry - and I don't give a fuck!

[njflex]

Doug Miller never took pro-hormones, if anything his size shows that he uses the real thing.  But I really do believe Doug is natural.  www.dougmillerpro.com

good build,decent size,condition good not dry like a crossover but lean and good for everday life.

[The True Adonis]

Doug Miller never took pro-hormones, if anything his size shows that he uses the real thing.  But I really do believe Doug is natural.  www.dougmillerpro.com

That could be true.  Perhaps he just lies about his weight which would validate being natural.

I don`t buy for one moment Doug Miller`s stats:
• DOB: 9.23.1979
• Born: Abington, PA
• Height: 5'9"
• Competition weight: 185-190
• Offseason weight: 210-220

Look at Flex Wheeler here at the 89 Nationals.

5`10 187 lbs.

No way does Doug Miller come close to that if we are to believe that he is natural or his stats.  One of the two are clearly deceptive.

[The True Adonis]

Doug Miller never took pro-hormones, if anything his size shows that he uses the real thing.  But I really do believe Doug is natural.  www.dougmillerpro.com

That could be true.  Perhaps he just lies about his weight which would validate being natural.

I don`t buy for one moment Doug Miller`s stats:
• DOB: 9.23.1979
• Born: Abington, PA
• Height: 5'9"
• Competition weight: 185-190
• Offseason weight: 210-220

Look at Flex Wheeler here at the 89 Nationals.

5`10 187 lbs.

No way does Doug Miller come close to that if we are to believe that he is natural or his stats.  One of the two are clearly deceptive.

[BIG ACH]

Adam,

Doug definitely competes at those numbers, I've been there before during his weigh-ins and shows!!!

[njflex]

That could be true.  Perhaps he just lies about his weight which would validate being natural.

I don`t buy for one moment Doug Miller`s stats:
• DOB: 9.23.1979
• Born: Abington, PA
• Height: 5'9"
• Competition weight: 185-190
• Offseason weight: 210-220

Look at Flex Wheeler here at the 89 Nationals.

5`10 187 lbs.

No way does Doug Miller come close to that if we are to believe that he is natural or his stats.  One of the two are clearly deceptive.

wheeler had superior genetics and probably using buythen 4 yrs he has a distinct advantage,ya think?

[The True Adonis]

Adam,

Doug definitely competes at those numbers, I've been there before during his weigh-ins and shows!!!

If he does, he is not natural in my opinion.

[BIG ACH]

I believe he is clean - he is an absolute perfectionist, he graduated with a 4.0 GPA top of his class, he is  seriously sick to the head when it comes to training and eating right, I've trained with him before absolutely insane, and how meticulous he is about his diet is ridiculous, off-season or on, its crazy.

I emceed the show in which he turned pro at, when he came out on stage, the entire audience just goes "HOLY SHIT" you could hear it all through out the auditorium, was crazy!!!

[The True Adonis]

If he does, he is not natural in my opinion.

PM GH15 and ask what he thinks about Doug. hahha

Most of the Musclemania people still call themselves Natural.  

I like how they compete at 235 lbs and still tout being a lifetime drug free lifter.

[BIG ACH]

PM GH15 and ask what he thinks about Doug. hahha

Most of the Musclemania people still call themselves Natural.  

I like how they compete at 235 lbs and still tout being a lifetime drug free lifter.

Human Growth Hormone is not on the banned substance list for Musclemania - its a known fact LOL :-) check it right now. www.musclemania.com

[The True Adonis]

I do - he is an absolute perfectionist, he graduated with a 4.0 GPA top of his class, he is  seriously sick to the head when it comes to training and eating right, I've trained with him before absolutely insane, and how meticulous he is about his diet is ridiculous, off-season or on, its crazy.

I emceed the show in which he turned pro at, when he came out on stage, the entire audience just goes "HOLY SHIT" you could hear it all through out the auditorium, was crazy!!!

Being a perfectionist is not enough to break the shadow of doubt.  It really means nothing.  No such thing as "eating right".

[The True Adonis]

I think Doug could be natural, there is no way to tell really.  If indeed he is, that is about the upper limit.

What are your thoughts of Kurt Wiedner Deadlifting nearly 700 lbs at 5 percent bodyfat?  Perhaps he is just built for lifting?  I think he may be natural. Definitely the upper limit.

[BIG ACH]

Human Growth Hormone is not on the banned substance list for Musclemania - its a known fact LOL :-) check it right now. www.musclemania.com

Wait I'm wrong, this is written in the bottom:  In addition to the above listed compounds,
all forms of Human Growth Hormone are banned.

[The True Adonis]

Wait I'm wrong, this is written in the bottom:  In addition to the above listed compounds,
all forms of Human Growth Hormone are banned.

Iv`e heard that Testosterone shots are out of your system within a day.  I have no idea if it is true or not but that could be one way these people are doing it,

[BIG ACH]

I think Doug could be natural, there is no way to tell really.  If indeed he is, that is about the upper limit.

What are your thoughts of Kurt Wiedner Deadlifting nearly 700 lbs at 5 percent bodyfat?  Perhaps he is just built for lifting?  I think he may be natural. Definitely the upper limit.

I believe its true, I've known people who knew Kurt since he was young and before he even got seriously into it, he was still always really big and really strong!!!

Genetics plays a huuuuge factor in all of this and people like Doug and Kurt, bust their asses and just do everything right!!!

No one knows except them, and thats how it'll always be, but like I said, I believe them!

[The True Adonis]

Wait I'm wrong, this is written in the bottom:  In addition to the above listed compounds,
all forms of Human Growth Hormone are banned.

Why are Musclemania guys not natural, but claim to be?

[The True Adonis]

Why are Musclemania guys not natural, but claim to be?

ROFLMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

This guy claims all natural.

[Fatpanda]

I believe he is clean - he is an absolute perfectionist, he graduated with a 4.0 GPA top of his class, he is  seriously sick to the head when it comes to training and eating right, I've trained with him before absolutely insane, and how meticulous he is about his diet is ridiculous, off-season or on, its crazy.

I emceed the show in which he turned pro at, when he came out on stage, the entire audience just goes "HOLY SHIT" you could hear it all through out the auditorium, was crazy!!!

  why do all you 'naturas' claim the same shit over and over, and cover for each other - you all claim, i've trained with him, he's hardcore, he's meticulous, blah blah blah - he's on a ton of gear like evereyone else i.e faildo, kyoshi, willet, skip

you look good, but your a lying @@@@

[BIG ACH]

Why are Musclemania guys not natural, but claim to be?

Because their organization still considers them natural, even if they use HGH, because they don't poly and only do urinalysis. and HGH will not show up in the urinalysis!

[BIG ACH]

why do all you 'naturas' claim the same shit over and over, and cover for each other - you all claim, i've trained with him, he's hardcore, he's meticulous, blah blah blah - he's on a ton of gear like evereyone else i.e faildo, kyoshi, willet, skip

you look good, but your a lying @@@@

Fatpanda, read my other post, I also said he is the only one that TRULY knows, and I am only going by what I BELIEVE - and I could be 100% wrong, maybe he is using, but I don't believe that he is.


I don't understand your last line, I look good but am lying about what?