Why do (or did) "Naturals" take PROHormones but not steroids?

[The True Adonis]

Why is it so important to you how people classify themselves epsically when the lines are grey?

How does that affect you?

Why are you always on your soapbox?

Why is it an affront to you to have a meaningful debate and discussion?
I find other people`s opinions and justification of how they arrived at their point and contention rather intriguing. 

[The ChemistV2]

This is the way that I look at it.  Pro-hormones have the ability to give you supraphysiological levels of androgens in your system.  Except from perhaps a moral standpoint or a legal standpoint and varying degrees of efficacy, they are basically the same as anabolic steroids.  So in using these substances one could not consider themselves truly natural.  I believe that hormone boosting supplements like Tribulus and other herbal products can raise your hormone levels but they still will be within the normal range.  Therefore I believe using those supplements would not endanger one's natural status.

[The True Adonis]

This is the way that I look at it.  Pro-hormones have the ability to give you supraphysiological levels of androgens in your system.  Except from perhaps a moral standpoint or a legal standpoint and varying degrees of efficacy, they are basically the same as anabolic steroids.  So in using these substances one could not consider themselves truly natural.  I believe that hormone boosting supplements like Tribulus and other herbal products can raise your hormone levels but they still will be within the normal range.  Therefore I believe using those supplements would not endanger one's natural status.

VERY GOOD summary.  I think a lot of PROHormone users have a strange justification of why they started using PROHormones in the first place but not steroids and also what they now refer to themselves having used a substance that is now classified the same as a steroid(which they avoided previously, but used the same justification for their PROHormone usage).

It is an interesting circumstance they have got themselves in.

[Thin Lizzy]

I must admit that I've become out of touch with regard to the supplement industry.  To date, is there something you can buy in GNC that can actually make a significant difference in one's physique?

[Red Hook]

So by those standards Arnold Schwarzenegger was completely Natural then.

No, he is/was a user of steroids before they became illegal.

Ragarding prohomes..a distinction can be made for people that used PH before they became illegal.

[The True Adonis]

No, he is/was a user of steroids before they became illegal.

Ragarding prohomes..a distinction can be made for people that used PH before they became illegal.

Why?

[The ChemistV2]

VERY GOOD summary.  I think a lot of PROHormone users have a strange justification of why they started using PROHormones in the first place but not steroids and also what they now refer to themselves having used a substance that is now classified the same as a steroid(which they avoided previously, but used the same justification for their PROHormone usage).

It is an interesting circumstance they have got themselves in.

First of all, I wouldn't make the assumption that most Pro-hormone users have the knowledge to know what they are actually ingesting. They may have just read that these are "food supplements" that supposedly give steroid like effects. They also probably figure that the fact that they are legal and are sold in health food stores that they probably are nothing like real steroids. The truth is whenever someone takes a testosterone molecule and alters it, they have created a steroid. Some are more potent than others, but they are still chemically classified as steroids. The original legal loophole used by the Pro-hormone manufacturers was that the hormones were inactive and required enzymes in the human body to activate them into the actual steroid compounds. Then when these substances were made illegal, the supplement companies found that progesterone based hormones were not on the banned list. So now there are several products on the market that are classified as Progestins and for the time being are still legal. Example of progestin based real steroids would be Nandrolone(deca) and trenbolone derivatives. So the average clueless gym guy (or top level "Natural" competitor) can say, "Hey Bro, I'm all natural. I just take this Superdrol stuff I get at GNC."

[BIG ACH]

Adam,

I just saw this post now. And I'd like to give an answer as I think this question maybe pretty much intended for me since you and I talked about this the other day and there was the whole post about it.

Here's the deal,

1.  Have I ever taken Pro Hormones and what did I take?  Yes I took pro-hormones a few years back, I did 2 andro cycles (don't remember which ones to be honest), and I did one cylce of M1-T.  I didn't feel anything special from the Andro, but the M1-T, OH MY GOD YES, THAT SHIT WORKS, no ifs ands or buts.  Is it as potent as real anabolic steroids? absoloutely not and this is based on many people who I know who took both?  But M1-T works and works GOOOOD!  Have I ever taken anabolic steroids out of the pro-hormone classification? No I have not.

2.  Why did I do pro-hormones but not steroids?  It was a combination of many things, a) a legal stand point, in that I could walk into a GNC and buy this stuff without being jumped by DEA lol, b) a competitive stand-point in that the organizations I competed in allowed it as long as my T/E ratios did not get effected, because if I faild a urinalysis due to Andro or M1-T or even Tribulus there was no re-test and no excuses, I wasn't competing, so I did it in the off-season and it was allowed.  c) a sort of Moral dillemma thinking that I was doing the right thing by not breaking the law and injecting things into my body!

3.  Do I still consider myself a lifetime natural?  Yes I do, everyone's definition of natural is different, and I consider myself natural because to me natural is not taking Anabolic steroids, GH, Insulin, etc.  And the organizations I compete in, as well as 99% of natural organizations consider me a lifetime natural.  Many of you will jump on me and say that I'm not natural, and thats fine, your definition of natural is different than mine, and it makes no sense to argue about it, because I don't blame you for how you feel at the same time I'm going by what the organizations I compete in allow.

The fact that people say pro-hormones are steroids is PURE bullshit, any juicer who has tried both will tell you that, there is a BIIIIG THICK LINE separating the two, and in no way are pro-hormones are potent as the real thing.  Again, this does not mean that they are not potent or do not work, its just different.

4.  Would I ever juice or even taken pro-hormones again?  See to me it is no longer a legal issue.  I live in Egypt and here REAL ANABOLIC STEROIDS are PERFECTLY and 100% legal and really cheap, I can walk into any pharmacy and buy it, no prescription needed, no questions asked, no DEA jumping my ass, nothing at all, I can have a 10 year old kid go pick it up for me and there would be no problems at all.  But I chose not to go down that route, I want to stay natural, and to be honest I'm not even sure why I made that decision, but I see it as almost a challenge to myself, I've gotten this far naturally, how much further can I get naturally, I think I'm still young (25) so I still have plenty of time to put on more size, maybe I'm wrong and I'm doomed to be stuck at this same weight/look/size, but I will give it a fighting shot and bust my ass to see where I can go from here, and wherever that takes me I'm pretty sure I won't have any regrets about never juicing.

Would I ever take pro-hormones again?  NO! I wouldn't, not because of the side effects, or because i think they are steroids and I feel that I'm being a hypocrit, I'm not gonna take them again because natural competition rules and regulations are constantly changing, everyday I am seeing more and more substances being added, and I  don't want to make the mistake of taking something that may get me disqualified after I bust my ass for 16-18 weeks getting ready for a show, the gains are not that worth it to me.

Some people may not understand where I'm coming from and may call me a hypocrit, but honestly I don't blame you for feeling this way, as I said I'm going on what I believe is the definition of a natural and what the organizations that I compete in believe.  I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here!

Oh I also took Tribulus once, dunno if that is considered a Pro-hormone or a natural test booster, but I didn't feel anything although I did read that it will mess up your T/E ratios in a urinalysis!

Hope that makes sense, and if you want me to go into more details just ask and I'll share, I see a lot of people that will take shit and try to hide it, but I think thats stupid!  That is what I did!

[shiftedShapes]

So if bodybuilder A takes a PROHormone at X dose and gets a 15 lb gain

and

Bodybuilder B takes a PROHormone at the same  X Dose and gets a 0 lb gain

Bodybuilder A is not natural but Bodybuilder B is?

no I'm not talking about low responders I'm talking about crappy supplements.  I think most everything that is sold in GNC is useless including the prohormones creatine and protein.  I guess someone mentioned M1T and apparently there were stronger pro-hormones towards the end of their legal sale.  SO using your notation it would be:

So if bodybuilders 1-1000 takes PROHormone A at X dose and get a 0 lb gain

and

Bodybuilders 1001-2000 takes a PROHormone B at the same  X Dose and get a 15 lb gain

Bodybuilders 1-1000 are natural and 1001-2000 are not natural.

[Rammer]

I've had a strikingly similar conversation with a friend recently.  A question I asked him was what if creatine became a banned substance?  Would everyone who took it not be considered natural any more.  I also asked this question of him, several natural BB organizations like the NANBF say that any substance banned by the FDA is banned in that organization.  Back in 1991 Tryptophan was banned by the FDA so I joked with him that I wasn't natural because I took some tryptophan to help me get to sleep in 1986.  There have been supplements that were taken off the market because non-bodybuilders were abusing them or using them for illicit purposes like making street drugs.  I guess if you want to claim natural for life you better just stick with food and not take anything that could be banned or pulled from the market in the future for any reason.

[dr.chimps]

It is an interesting circumstance they have got themselves in.

Hmmm. TA, you say you don't much care people use or not, but then make morally telling pronouncements like the above. 

[240 is Back]

Twice as toxic, half the results.

[Van_Bilderass]

The fact that people say pro-hormones are steroids is PURE bullshit, any juicer who has tried both will tell you that, there is a BIIIIG THICK LINE separating the two, and in no way are pro-hormones are potent as the real thing.  Again, this does not mean that they are not potent or do not work, its just different.

No, what you're saying is bullshit. The term pro-hormone was invented by the supplement companies. The term pro-steroid was even more ridiculous. You took anabolic steroids. Period.

Read this:
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37726

Lots of juicers will tell you M1T is stronger than any illegal steroid they've tired.

[mar10s]

Whatever one does with their body, or whatever they take is their business.  What's the difference if they've taken a pro hormone before or if they've taken a AS.  Everyone that's in the gym has a different goal in mind and their own version of what they'd like to look like.  I don't understand how the same people claim that pro hormones do not work, and on the other hand they say if someone makes some gains (albeit small), "you're not natural...you took pro hormones".  It's their money, let them waste it if they want.  If they've made gains from it, well good for them.

[The True Adonis]

Hmmm. TA, you say you don't much care people use or not, but then make morally telling pronouncements like the above. 

I am just the curious man looking at it from the outside, I am not the furious man on the inside.  It makes for great observation sociologically as well as psychologically.  All substances should be legal and available for consumption without any fear of criminality in my opinion.  The ability to self-medicate on a whim should be available to all.  If people and their stupidity does cause an accident, so be it.  The burden falls on ignorance.  Education and accurate research regarding any substance should also be freely available and easily accessible.

[The True Adonis]

No, what you're saying is bullshit. The term pro-hormone was invented by the supplement companies. The term pro-steroid was even more ridiculous. You took anabolic steroids. Period.

Read this:
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37726

Lots of juicers will tell you M1T is stronger than any illegal steroid they've tired.

Why do you think people separate the two when the practical definition and chemical profile of both would be considered both as Conventional Anabolic Steroids?

[Red Hook]

Adonis, just to make sure that we are using the same terms please define

1. ProHormones
2. Steriods (Anabolic)
3. Being natural
4. Being clean
5. If someone eat diary/meat products of animal feed steroids..what is his status in your opinion?

[The True Adonis]

Adonis, just to make sure that we are using the same terms please define

1. ProHormones
2. Steriods (Anabolic)
3. Being natural
4. Being clean
5. If someone eat diary/meat products of animal feed steroids..what is his status in your opinion?

1. Prohormones: are steroids
2. Steroids:  anything synthetically manufactured or naturally occurring that raises your Testosterone levels above and beyond normal ranges for a sustainable duration due to whatever is ingested or injected.
3. Being Natural:  No usage of number 1 or 2.
4.Being Clean:   Prior usage of number 1 or 2.
5.Meat and Dairy products while animal is on rGh, etc..: Number 3, Natural as this will not have a significant effect of raising Testosterone levels above normal for a lengthy duration.

[mwbbuilder]

TA have you ever taken ephedrine?

[dearth]

that is the basis on which you claim people are not natural.
simply put - they are better than you therefore there is no way they can be natural.

I don`t beleive I am the pinnacle of anything.  No one person can ever hold that distinction in any field.  There is no such thing.

[dearth]

the "steroid like effects" of pro-hormones is somewhat exaggerated by advertisements etc..

This is the way that I look at it.  Pro-hormones have the ability to give you supraphysiological levels of androgens in your system.  Except from perhaps a moral standpoint or a legal standpoint and varying degrees of efficacy, they are basically the same as anabolic steroids.  So in using these substances one could not consider themselves truly natural.  I believe that hormone boosting supplements like Tribulus and other herbal products can raise your hormone levels but they still will be within the normal range.  Therefore I believe using those supplements would not endanger one's natural status.

[MCWAY]

Until you actually qualify what makes someone "natural", discussions like this are basically pointless.

I mentioned this a few weeks ago; but some people think that ANYTHING that you consume, other than regular food, takes you out of the "natural" category.

Some of you may remember my story about the two college freshmen football players. For those who haven't heard it, basically one guy was putting something into his shaker bottle and having it with lunch. When his gridiron buddy joined him and saw what he was doing, he bascially said, "I don't mess with that @&^#. That #&@^ make your nuts shrink".

My guess is that he was referring to anabolic steroids, when referencing the whole testicular atrophy thing. The problem (thus the reason for my nearly spitting out my food in laughter) is that the substance the one player was drinking was......JOE WEIDER'S SUGAR-FREE BIG weight gainer.

[The True Adonis]

Until you actually qualify what makes someone "natural", discussions like this are basically pointless.

I mentioned this a few weeks ago; but some people think that ANYTHING that you consume, other than regular food, takes you out of the "natural" category.

Some of you may remember my story about the two college freshmen football players. For those who haven't heard it, basically one guy was putting something into his shaker bottle and having it with lunch. When his gridiron buddy joined him and saw what he was doing, he bascially said, "I don't mess with that @&^#. That #&@^ make your nuts shrink".

My guess is that he was referring to anabolic steroids, when referencing the whole testicular atrophy thing. The problem (thus the reason for my nearly spitting out my food in laughter) is that the substance the one player was drinking was......JOE WEIDER'S SUGAR-FREE BIG weight gainer.

1. Prohormones: are steroids
2. Steroids:  anything synthetically manufactured or naturally occurring that raises your Testosterone levels above and beyond normal ranges for a sustainable duration due to whatever is ingested or injected.
3. Being Natural:  No usage of number 1 or 2.
4.Being Clean:   Prior usage of number 1 or 2.
5.Meat and Dairy products while animal is on rGh, etc..: Number 3, Natural as this will not have a significant effect of raising Testosterone levels above normal for a lengthy duration.

[MCWAY]

1. Prohormones: are steroids
2. Steroids:  anything synthetically manufactured or naturally occurring that raises your Testosterone levels above and beyond normal ranges for a sustainable duration due to whatever is ingested or injected.
3. Being Natural:  No usage of number 1 or 2.
4.Being Clean:   Prior usage of number 1 or 2.
5.Meat and Dairy products while animal is on rGh, etc..: Number 3, Natural as this will not have a significant effect of raising Testosterone levels above normal for a lengthy duration.

By that definition, people can take substances (drugs) to help them gain mass that DO NOT affect their testosterone levels, yet still be called "natural".

That would even include Synthol.

[The True Adonis]

By that definition, people can take substances (drugs) to help them gain mass that DO NOT affect their testosterone levels, yet still be called "natural".

That would even include Synthol.

I wouldn`t consider Synthol as cheating when all it does is make one look regressively worse.  You would have to be a fool to use it in the first place and it never has looked pleasing on anybody.

Same thing with implants or wearing a muscle rubber suit.  All are absurd.