If Bush would have had his way and Social Security privatized.

[Hugo Chavez]

What would be the status today?  With the market the way it is?  Would love to hear especially from Neuro on this and others?

[240 is Back]

What would be the status today?  With the market the way it is?  Would love to hear especially from Neuro on this and others?

oh, holy god...

tens of millions of people would have lost a big chunk of their retirement.

[Hereford]

oh, holy god...

tens of millions of people would have lost a big chunk of their retirement.

Social Security was never intended to be relied upon for retirement.

The SS system today is just another example of the social redistribution of wealth.

[240 is Back]

Social Security was never intended to be relied upon for retirement.

Can you share more info on this?

[Hugo Chavez]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_(United_States)

[240 is Back]

Sweet! 

I don't get it... why are we REQUIRED to pay it?

[Hugo Chavez]

oh, holy god...

tens of millions of people would have lost a big chunk of their retirement.

whatever we want to call it, not withstanding, it's fair to say in your opinion we would have lost a big chunk?

[Hereford]

Sweet! 

I don't get it... why are we REQUIRED to pay it?

YES!!!

Participation should be voluntary.

But then, this government sponsored pyramid scheme would become a failure, because all those who were smart enough to financially plan for their own retirement would exit.

[Decker]

Social Security was never intended to be relied upon for retirement.

The SS system today is just another example of the social redistribution of wealth.

Yes it was intended to be relied upon for retirement. http://www.ssa.gov/history/briefhistory3.html

It was intended to be supplemental and not the primary source of retirement income.  That's been lost over the years.

SS is a form of social insurance derived from payments made into the system funding the former generation's retirees.  It's an intergenerational promise of benefits paid to maintain a minimal lifestyle above the poverty threshold...It's social insurance.

And SS is the most wildly successful governmental program in history.  The efficiency of the SSA re administrative costs blows away any private insurer.

[OzmO]

I somewhat agree about voluntary participation.   If there isn't some sort of mandatory system in place the more people who end up on the street become a burden one way or another.

But i don't agree about privatization.

[Decker]

What would be the status today?  With the market the way it is?  Would love to hear especially from Neuro on this and others?

Since SS is not a wealth creating scheme--it's social insurance--I'm certain privatization would kill the program if implemented.

I mean we already have a system of private accounts for retirement--they're called IRAs.  

Privatization is a scam to plow billions in fees to Wall Street...another method to fleece the flock.

[Decker]

I somewhat agree about voluntary participation.   If there isn't some sort of mandatory system in place the more people who end up on the street become a burden one way or another.

But i don't agree about privatization.

You thought it through and recognized the flaw in the argument.  That's great.  I agree with you.  Here's a link that does a fairly good job of debunking the privatizers scam.

http://www.ctj.org/taxjusticedigest/federal-tax-issues/social-security/

[Hereford]

I somewhat agree about voluntary participation.   If there isn't some sort of mandatory system in place the more people who end up on the street become a burden one way or another.

But i don't agree about privatization.

If you can't plan ahead for your future....  Why do I have to be forced to do it for you via taxation?

[OzmO]

If you can't plan ahead for your future....  Why do I have to be forced to do it for you via taxation?

I agree.  However, you'll be forced to do it one way or another when whole communities of people are affected by the increased burdens of homeless, hungry old folks.

The Soc Sec system in the USA, once abolished would send us right back to the depression style era of the early 30's in a generation or two. 

Some things in principle don't translate to well into the real world.

The same real world where you have to use facts to prove someone is a Muslim.   

[Eyeball Chambers]

If you can't plan ahead for your future....  Why do I have to be forced to do it for you via taxation?

That's pretty much how I feel.

[OzmO]

The problem with privatizing somethings like social security is that with out strong regulation, competition will produce a winner who will have indirect monopoly and in time abuse it.

It's happening right now with some services for military families and defendants.  I'm not too sure i can give concrete examples right now, but i was told a while ago, about financial hardships many military families are facing becuase of the increase cost of services that were privatized.

I'm not for socializing things.  But some things need to be.  And some things NOT to the extent they are now.

[Hereford]

So then there will be large numbers of people who are poor.

So What?

I work hard, I take care of myself, my family and to a lesser extent my community. SS and all other implimentations of the Great American Welfare State are right out of the socialist textbook.

I see no reason why I should be forced to help support (via SS) old people who never thought to save the bare-bones amount of capital necessary to function after they left the labor force, or the non-contributors in society.

Maybe the average American should forget about the plasma, put the credit cards away, stay home on Saturday night and actually try to save a little of their money for their future instead of blowing their paychecks living hand-to-mouth every month.

[Decker]

If you can't plan ahead for your future....  Why do I have to be forced to do it for you via taxation?

B/c it is in the interest of the country to not have our streets cluttered with impoverished old people.

Not all people can save enough for retirement.  The world needs ditch diggers too.  Sometimes people are hit with bad luck as well.  Financial crises happen to people who cannot withstand them.  Try buying a new furnace for the house on $20k a year.  There's food, electricity, water, gas, insurance bills ....and on and on.

You are 'forced' to pay to help your fellow man stay out of abject poverty.  The imposition of a payroll tax to meet these demands is sensible.  And it is the human thing to do.

Everyone that pays into the system gets a benefit.

[Hugo Chavez]

B/c it is in the interest of the country to not have our streets cluttered with impoverished old people.

Not all people can save enough for retirement.  The world needs ditch diggers too.  Sometimes people are hit with bad luck as well.  Financial crises happen to people who cannot withstand them.  Try buying a new furnace for the house on $20k a year.  There's food, electricity, water, gas, insurance bills ....and on and on.

You are 'forced' to pay to help your fellow man stay out of abject poverty.  The imposition of a payroll tax to meet these demands is sensible.  And it is the human thing to do.

Everyone that pays into the system gets a benefit.

good post.

[Hereford]

B/c it is in the interest of the country to not have our streets cluttered with impoverished old people.

Not all people can save enough for retirement.  The world needs ditch diggers too.  Sometimes people are hit with bad luck as well.  Financial crises happen to people who cannot withstand them.  Try buying a new furnace for the house on $20k a year.  There's food, electricity, water, gas, insurance bills ....and on and on.

You are 'forced' to pay to help your fellow man stay out of abject poverty.  The imposition of a payroll tax to meet these demands is sensible.  And it is the human thing to do.

Everyone that pays into the system gets a benefit.

No way.
Not buying it.

Everybody can save money, no matter where you are or how much you make. Funny how all the low-enders that need all this help all the time can still somehow afford cigarettes and Bud Light, have a Dish-TV hooked up the the side of the trailer and fancy rims on the SUV...

Financial crisis happen.... yes. However YOU need to cover YOURSELF for when these happen.

Side note: I used to have a boss that drove a 140K motorhome, and joked about getting the SS check every month.... siad he deserved it for paying in all those years...

This is just another example of this sense of entitlement that prevades in this country. If you can't hold your own.... fall out. It is not my, nor anyone elses responsibility to make sure you are kept out of 'abject poverty'. Just because my 'fellow man' happens to exist within the same geo-political region as I do does not make him my responsiblity.

[OzmO]

So then there will be large numbers of people who are poor.

So What?

I work hard, I take care of myself, my family and to a lesser extent my community. SS and all other implimentations of the Great American Welfare State are right out of the socialist textbook.

I see no reason why I should be forced to help support (via SS) old people who never thought to save the bare-bones amount of capital necessary to function after they left the labor force, or the non-contributors in society.

Maybe the average American should forget about the plasma, put the credit cards away, stay home on Saturday night and actually try to save a little of their money for their future instead of blowing their paychecks living hand-to-mouth every month.

If there are large numbers of people who are poor then our country will head towards the 3rd world.  I don't want that.  And i don't want to drive the street and see dozens of people pan handling on every street corner in America.  I don't want to see crime increase and the middle class decrease. 

You can still have financial freedom in America and make you dreams come true under the current system just fine.  The Taxes we pay don't prevent anyone from doing that. 

Granted our system is not perfect.  But it is not off base either.  It is NOT socialist.  We pay a reasonable amount of taxes for what we get and i believe we could get far more benefits for everyone and pay LESS taxes if things were ran properly.

These ideologies or systems in their extreme never work.  Pure democracies, pure communism, pure capitalism etc...   NEVER WORK OUT. 

[Slapper]

Some Americans are selfish and greedy individuals. Period. They only understand why something exists until it happens to them or to a close one.

My concers is what is going to happen to all the money us the thirtysomethings have put in the money pit when SS is done away with. Are we going to get a refund? Are we going to get a (tax) break?

[Hereford]

If there are large numbers of people who are poor then our country will head towards the 3rd world.  OR Perhaps the non-hackers would realize that the safety net is gone, and beging to take responsibility for their own destiny and well-being.

i don't want to drive the street and see dozens of people pan handling on every street corner in America.  Maybe they could get jobs and actually contribute?

I don't want to see crime increase How? You are arguing for appeasement of the lower classes?

and the middle class decrease.  Taking less or our earnings by force (and it is by force, try not paying and see what happens) would cause a decrease in the middle classes standard of living???

[Hugo Chavez]

So anyway, we have a few people that think the privatization of SS would have been bad with where we are at now?  And some who just want to argue against SS alltogether.

[OzmO]

If there are large numbers of people who are poor then our country will head towards the 3rd world.  OR Perhaps the non-hackers would realize that the safety net is gone, and beging to take responsibility for their own destiny and well-being.

i don't want to drive the street and see dozens of people pan handling on every street corner in America.  Maybe they could get jobs and actually contribute?

I don't want to see crime increase How? You are arguing for appeasement of the lower classes?

and the middle class decrease.  Taking less or our earnings by force (and it is by force, try not paying and see what happens) would cause a decrease in the middle classes standard of living???

I doubt the non-hackers will figure it out.

Maybe they could just get jobs?  if the ones who are panhandling now aren't, what makes you think more of them will?

Not arguing appeasement.  Just being realistic. More poor people in a country equate to more crime. 

What's taken out of money isn't enough to kill the average middle class person.  What's taken out is by democratic rule.  Is it not?

If you feel that strongly, start a campaign to get it changed.  If not enough people want it, then maybe you are in the wrong country of people.