The Adonis Diet Principles, Open-Source

[wavelength]

----
To be able to log the evolvement of the principles in this thread, I added a change log:
2008-09-04: First version as defined in discussions with The True Adonis in preceding threads.
2008-09-06: Changed "body weight" to "lean body weight" in P1 as suggested by tbombz.
2008-09-07: Changed "weight training" to "anaerobic resistance training" in P4 as suggested by shiftedShapes.
2008-09-09: Added P5 as suggested by technokc and defined by The True Adonis.
2008-09-12: Re-added purpose of diet in first sentence.
----

The current version of the Adonis Diet Principles for dieting down while preserving as much muscle mass as possible goes like this (TA, please feel free to correct me at any time):

The Principles, rules that must be followed:

P1) minimum daily protein intake of 1 g/lb lean body weight,
P2) variety of food good enough for proper nutrient intake (e.g. follow USRDA),
P3) deficiency of calories which leads to 1-3 lbs of weight loss per week,
P4) hard anaerobic resistance training at least 3 times a week,
P5) 5-8 hours of sleep per day, depending on individual requirements.

The Myths, factors of minimal, no, or even negative influence:

M1) ratio of macro nutrients other than defined by P1 and P2,
M2) abandonment of alcohol,
M3) intake of "supplements",
M4) proper spacing of meals during the day,
M5) cardio training.

If we take a closer look at the principles (P1-P5), we will see that the classical bodybuilder method of dieting meets all five rules. P1 will always be met, yet usually exceeded. P2 will usually be attempted (although questionable if met) by substituting certain foods with "supplements". P3, P4, and P5 will be met or exceeded.

So where my diet differs, is just the myths (M1-M5). A practical emperical method to find out if M1-M5 are truths or myths is if one and the same individual tries different diets, one after the other, always adhering to the principles (P1-P5), but changing the myths (M1-M5).

I have done that. In my case, I have clearly identified M1-M5 as myths. My current diet includes everything I like to eat. I eat most of my calories at lunch. I drink red wine whenever I feel like it. I don't take any supplements, except for whey protein powder to make P1 easier to meet. I even stopped taking multivitamins after a few weeks into this diet to prove the point. I don't do any cardio. I have never felt better, stronger, healthier, or less hungry than on this diet. I have never preserved more muscle mass.

I would really be interested in input from people who have attempted the same. No scientific articles please. You will always find scientific sources that support one or the other method, the only thing that counts in the end is what works in real life.

[wavelength]

Bump. Since many people claim that the TA diet is crap, has anyone actually tried it? So far I know of two people: TA and me. I don't know about TA but I have tried a lot of different diets and this one's clearly the winner.

[Army of One]

Bump. Since many people claim that the TA diet is crap, has anyone actually tried it? So far I know of two people: TA and me. I don't know about TA but I have tried a lot of different diets and this one's clearly the winner.

Any diet where you restrict calories below maintenance while getting enough protein in will be a winner.If I can sum it up in one sentence, how hard can it be?People really make too much of a big deal about dieting, as Nike says "Just do it".

[DK II]

Bump. Since many people claim that the TA diet is crap, has anyone actually tried it? So far I know of two people: TA and me. I don't know about TA but I have tried a lot of different diets and this one's clearly the winner.

What you posted are the "wavelength"-principles.

TA's Bullshit approach was "A calorie is a calorie" and the more he got flamed, he adjusted it to a "normal" diet.

What you have posted there is what i have been doing for more than 5 years.

[DK II]

Any diet where you restrict calories below maintenance while getting enough protein in will be a winner.If I can sum it up in one sentence, how hard can it be?People really make too much of a bid deal about dieting, as Nike says "Just do it".

Exactly!

Where is the "TA principle" in that?

It's like i write "Objects fall down to the floor" and call that the "donkeykong principles".

[Red Hook]

The Principles, rules that must be followed:

P2) variety of food good enough for proper nutrient intake (e.g. follow USRDA),
P3) deficiency of calories which leads to 1-3 lbs of weight loss per week,
P4) hard weight training at least 3 times a week.

wow..now we are breaking new ground, why didn't others think about this?

[wavelength]

OK, I was under the impression, that what I have proposed would be considered a crappy diet. As I said, P1-P4 is met with just about any bodybuilder's diet, but if you look at M1-M5, most "classical bodybuilder diets" will go against that.

DonkeyKong: would you also agree that M1-M5 are myths (resp. are they important in your diet) or do you just agree with P1-P4?

[wavelength]

wow..now we are breaking new ground, why didn't others think about this?

In my first post, I say exactly that: every bodybuilder diet follows (or tries to follow) these. It's the myths that are different.

[Red Hook]

In my first post, I say exactly that: every bodybuilder diet follows (or tries to follow) these. It's the myths that are different.

if I don't put the " " means that you don't get the sarcasm? 

[wavelength]

if I don't put the " " means that you don't get the sarcasm? 

OK, so what's your opinion / experience?

[DK II]

OK, I was under the impression, that what I have proposed would be considered a crappy diet. As I said, P1-P4 is met with just about any bodybuilder's diet, but if you look at M1-M5, most "classical bodybuilder diets" will go against that.

DonkeyKong: would you also agree that M1-M5 are myths (resp. are they important in your diet) or do you just agree with P1-P4?

No.

M1) ratio of macro nutrients other than defined by P1 and P2,  RDA is not sufficient for lifters
M2) abandonment of alcohol,  has a huuuuuge influence on training performance and general health. A glass wine or so is fine, but binsch drinking will kill you off
M3) intake of "supplements",   BUllshit. Some BCAA and creatine will improve your performance a lot. Also some whey after WO is better than milk or food
M4) proper spacing of meals during the day, define 'proper'. i agree though that meal timing isn't that important
M5) cardio training.  Not necessary depending on the type of lifting. If you train HIT, you won't shed a lot of fat probably, so getting lean will take a loooooooong time without cardio.

[Red Hook]

OK, so what's your opinion / experience?

If you expend more calories than you take in, you will lose weight. It sounds crazy but give it try, you will see that it works.

[Fatpanda]

M3) intake of "supplements",   BUllshit. Some BCAA and creatine will improve your performance a lot. Also some whey after WO is better than milk or food

this is wrong dk - milk has been shown as better than whey after WO due to the combined anabolic/anti catabolic effects of whey/casein combo found in milk.

[DK II]

If you expend more calories than you take in, you will lose weight. It sounds crazy but give it try, you will see that it works.

Shit!!

You will get the Nobel prize for this brand new "Red Hook Principle"!!!

this is wrong dk - milk has been shown as better than whey after WO due to the combined anabolic/anti catabolic effects of whey/casein combo found in milk.

Wrong. Whey in milk or whey followed by milk will perform way better, for the same reason BCAA post WO followed by Whey will perform better.

You need fast aminos post WO, followed by a meal 45mins to 1h after WO.

[mazrim]

this is wrong dk - milk has been shown as better than whey after WO due to the combined anabolic/anti catabolic effects of whey/casein combo found in milk.

I think I saw a study on that but I can't remember if whey was included as one of the variables.

[Deicide]

In a different thread, I have posted my current diet principles. Since TA has been around here much longer than me and obviously has been pushing the same principles (as confirmed), we should call them the Adonis Diet Principles. The revised version goes like this (TA, please correct me if I'm wrong):

The Principles, rules that must be followed:

P1) minimum daily protein intake of 1g/lb bodyweight,
P2) variety of food good enough for proper nutrient intake (e.g. follow USRDA),
P3) deficiency of calories which leads to 1-3 lbs of weight loss per week,
P4) hard weight training at least 3 times a week.

The Myths, factors of minimal, no, or even negative influence:

M1) ratio of macro nutrients other than defined by P1 and P2,
M2) abandonment of alcohol,
M3) intake of "supplements",
M4) proper spacing of meals during the day,
M5) cardio training.

If we take a closer look at the principles (P1-P4), we will see that the classical bodybuilder method of dieting meets all four rules. P1 will always be met, yet usually exceeded. P2 will usually be attempted (although questionable if met) by substituting certain foods with "supplements". P3 and P4 will be met or exceeded.

So where my diet differs, is just the myths (M1-M5). The only emperical method to find out if M1-M5 are truths or myths is if one and the same individual tries different diets, one after the other, always adhering to the principles (P1-P4), but changing the myths (M1-M5).

I have done that. In my case, I have clearly identified M1-M5 as myths. My current diet includes everything I like to eat. I eat most of my calories at lunch. I drink red wine whenever I feel like it. I don't take any supplements, except for whey protein powder to make P1 easier to meet. I even stopped taking multivitamins after a few weeks into this diet to prove the point. I don't do any cardio. I have never felt better, stronger, healthier, or less hungry than on this diet. I have never preserved more muscle mass.

I would really be interested in input from people who have attempted the same. No scientific articles please. You will always find scientific sources that support one or the other method, the only thing that counts in the end is what works in real life.

Wienerschnitzel, I have to say that for me, all your myths are truths, unfortunately...

[Fatpanda]

Shit!!

You will get the Nobel prize for this brand new "Red Hook Principle"!!!


Wrong. Whey in milk or whey followed by milk will perform way better, for the same reason BCAA post WO followed by Whey will perform better.

You need fast aminos post WO, followed by a meal 45mins to 1h after WO.

dk, do not ever tell me i'm wrong   

read this:

http://www.sportsnutritionworkshop.com/Files/18.SPNT.pdf

and this:

Effect of a hypocaloric diet, increased protein intake and resistance training on lean mass gains and fat mass loss in overweight police officers.

Demling RH, DeSanti L.

Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, MA 02115, USA. rhdemling@partners.org

We compare the effects of a moderate hypocaloric, high-protein diet and resistance training, using two different protein supplements, versus hypocaloric diet alone on body compositional changes in overweight police officers. A randomized, prospective 12-week study was performed comparing the changes in body composition produced by three different treatment modalities in three study groups. One group (n = 10) was placed on a nonlipogenic, hypocaloric diet alone (80% of predicted needs). A second group (n = 14) was placed on the hypocaloric diet plus resistance exercise plus a high-protein intake (1.5 g/kg/day) using a casein protein hydrolysate. In the third group (n = 14) treatment was identical to the second, except for the use of a whey protein hydrolysate. We found that weight loss was approximately 2.5 kg in all three groups. Mean percent body fat with diet alone decreased from a baseline of 27 +/- 1.8 to 25 +/- 1.3% at 12 weeks. With diet, exercise and casein the decrease was from 26 +/- 1.7 to 18 +/- 1.1% and with diet, exercise and whey protein the decrease was from 27 +/- 1.6 to 23 +/- 1.3%. The mean fat loss was 2. 5 +/- 0.6, 7.0 +/- 2.1 and 4.2 +/- 0.9 kg in the three groups, respectively. Lean mass gains in the three groups did not change for diet alone, versus gains of 4 +/- 1.4 and 2 +/- 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 +/- 9% for casein and 29 +/- 9% for whey, a significant group difference. This significant difference in body composition and strength is likely due to improved nitrogen retention and overall anticatabolic effects caused by the peptide components of the casein hydrolysate. Copyright 2000 S. Karger AG, Basel

no apology needed   

[DK II]

i can dig up 1000 studies that say whey outperforms milk pwo.

[Fatpanda]

i can dig up 1000 studies that say whey outperforms milk pwo.

is that a challenge 

go ahead  prove me wrong 

[DK II]

is that a challenge 

go ahead  prove me wrong 

sorry, I'm out the door catching my flight to Japan.

[Fatpanda]

sorry, I'm out the door catching my flight to Japan.

hahahahaha

panda 1 - 0 donkeykong

[DK II]

hahahahaha

panda 1 - 0 donkeykong

whatever.

i don't lie though, i will leave tomorrow on a business trip to japan until oct.

we can revive the thread then if you like.

[The_Punisher]

whatever.

i don't lie though, i will leave tomorrow on a business trip to japan until oct.

we can revive the thread then if you like.

what kind of Ilegal business are you into, Mr Kong

[_bruce_]

A turd, is a turd, is a turd, .... 

[Deicide]

whatever.

i don't lie though, i will leave tomorrow on a business trip to japan until oct.

we can revive the thread then if you like.

Viel Spass...