The Adonis Diet Principles, Open-Source

[tbombz]

So, you will take note of the thermic effect of cold water, but not the thermic effect of protein?

hahahahah.

dude... come on.

[The True Adonis]

So, you will take note of the thermic effect of cold water, but not the thermic effect of protein?

hahahahah.

dude... come on.

Did you not read where I said that you could include it as well?

[tbombz]

Did you not read where I said that you could include it as well?

Go read my post on the last page. Tbombz diet principles, as I called them. Your diet is effective, in of that it creates a caloric defecit. But Im sorry my diet completely owns yours. 

[tbombz]

BOOOMMMM   

Allot of people diet on 100% meat +veggies. In fact its pretty common among pre contest bodybuilders. They might go 2,3,4,5, or even 6 days of protein + veggies, then have a carb up day.

IMO, this is the absolute most effective way to diet for fat loss. 

When trying to lose bodyfat, you want your body to use bodyfat for as large a % of your daily caloric expenditure as possible without using any muscle tissue. Since carbs and fats are energy, when you cut them out, all energy must come from fat. (except for some glucose demands... which would vary depending on activity throughout the day..).

So what you do is go zero carbs and fats, and eat just enough protein to avoid catabolism. Along with fibrous vegetables ("negative calories", dietary fiber, lower insulin levels, tons of vitamins minerals and phytonutrients.), and some fish oil/evening primrose (EFA, boost metabolism, protein sparing, boost insulin sensitivity), and thats it.  Carb ups as often as needed to sustain optimal thyroid and cortisol levels.

That = fastest possible fat loss with minimal muscle loss.


You can call that "The Tbombz Diet Principles." 

whats the goal of any 'fat loss diet ? to lose fat as quickly as possible without losing muscle.  what prevents muscle loss ? protein intake. what prevents fat loss? calorie intake.  to lose fat as quickly as possible you want to take in as low calories as possible, while eating enough protein to prevent muscle loss.

my diet >>>>> your diet.

 

[ASJChaotic]

BOOOMMMM   




whats the goal of any 'fat loss diet ? to lose fat as quickly as possible without losing muscle.  what prevents muscle loss ? protein intake. what prevents fat loss? calorie intake.  to lose fat as quickly as possible you want to take in as low calories as possible, while eating enough protein to prevent muscle loss.

my diet >>>>> your diet.

 

I think I should tell you that carbs are more muscle sparring than protein candizzle.....
take in as low calories as possible and eating lots of protein?
you do know that on a low carb diet atleast 30% of weight loss comes from muscle right?
that's besides the fooling water loss
so... you basically have a starvation diet on your hands 
last time I checked ANOREXIC people didn't have a very good body composition 
I don't know if you have tried it or not...but do try that
taking in as low calories as possible...and all protein
I'd love to see how long you can stick to it
chances are no more than 3 days max
I wouldn't be able to eat like that for 2 days........but that's fine, me and Adonis have our ways and you have yours
we get ripped on icecream and chocolate while you eat your nice tuna fish ....packed in water...for all your meals....for months 

[tbombz]

I think I should tell you that carbs are more muscle sparring than protein candizzle.....


insulin inhibits gluconeogensis TO A DEGREE, but it also inhibits lipolysis.


I don't know if you have tried it or not...but do try that
taking in as low calories as possible...and all protein
I'd love to see how long you can stick to it
chances are no more than 3 days max


its called willpower. youll never make it as a bodybuilder without willpower. most bodybuilders could eat 100% protein and veggies for months on end - no prolblem - if it is yeilding the results.

fastest possible fat loss without muscle loss. thats the subject at hand.


ask me about contest prep and thats a different story.


adonis is correct that the human body can utilize any kind of food. but he takes that as = no such thing as junk fod. absolutely incorrect. now there might be some truth to the fact that the glycemic index is not as important as many think it is. but differences in dietary fat are tremendous. thinking the fat you get from a whopper and the fat you get from salmon are equal is completely absolutely falso. thinking that a calorie is a calorie is absolutely totally false.



please, not trying to be arrogant, but dont ever argue with anything i post. that doesnt go for you onlly, but for about 98% of the people here.... with exceptions for necrosis, van bilderass, emmortal, 4thad, overload, arnoldjr, abc123, milos sarcev, disgusted, possibly gh15, quickerblade... and thats about it. (i may have left some out)

[tbombz]

Yes. That's right. The body can adapt to digest protein so as to decrease lost calories due to digestion. Enzymatic up-regulation, improved active transport across gut mucosal...all well documented.

On the other hand, there is no way to compensate for ice in the body. The body must heat it up. This takes energy. And it takes as much energy as is needed. Adonis laid out the math. A calorie is simply the amount of energy required to raise 1 gram of water by 1 degree celsius.

I'm not saying the body can completely negate the thermic effect of food digestion. That's ludicrous. I simply pointed out that after, say, 16 weeks on a high protein, low carb diet, you can't count on losing 1/4 of ingested protein calories to digestive processes. The body is more malleable than that. You know that too -- I've read your posts and you know a thing or two.

I also gave your diet cred. No doubt it will work. I just think you make it harder than it has to be. Not harder in terms of thinking or prep -- harder in terms of staying consistent and true to the plan. Are we people, or robots? You may have the self-discipline to practice what you preach 52 weeks a year. I certainly can't follow your guidelines. If I were making tons of money as a pro football player, sure. But I'm not. I'm just an average Joe with a job. I need something a little more like me, and a little less gung-ho. I'm sure there's a guy or two on this board who'll agree with me.

Again, your plan will work. And yes, there's a thermic effect to protein digestion. I just think you over-state the benefits of both and fail to highlight the drawbacks of the former.

i have no argument for you. good post.

your way of doing things is more for somebody who isnt really interested in the lifestyle. youd make a good personal trainer.

[tbombz]

A diet consisting of protein only will not work

this is the idea i am arguing against. protein only DOES work. very efficiently.


it seems that today in bodybuilding you have two sides - high fat and high carb.

to me, both make no sense (for a fat loss diet).

both carbs and fats both inhibit the utilization of subcutaneous adipose stores.

proteins do not (well.. they do in a way.. kind of..partially..only in excess... lol.. nevermind.. just stick with "they do not" )




certain carbs, like green leafy fibrous veggies - have fat loss benefits.

certain fats, like omega 3 (preferably epa/dha ) and omega 6 (only gla) - have fat loss benefits.

in those two macro groups, any intake other than those listed above, does not make sense (if looking for fastest possible fat loss...)


for protein intake, you want to intake enought to cover gluconeogensis(avoid catabolism), but not enough to slow down lipolysis.

[ASJChaotic]

fastest possible fat loss without muscle loss. thats the subject at hand.


ask me about contest prep and thats a different story.


adonis is correct that the human body can utilize any kind of food. but he takes that as = no such thing as junk fod. absolutely incorrect. now there might be some truth to the fact that the glycemic index is not as important as many think it is. but differences in dietary fat are tremendous. thinking the fat you get from a whopper and the fat you get from salmon are equal is completely absolutely falso. thinking that a calorie is a calorie is absolutely totally false.



please, not trying to be arrogant, but dont ever argue with anything i post. that doesnt go for you onlly, but for about 98% of the people here.... with exceptions for necrosis, van bilderass, emmortal, 4thad, overload, arnoldjr, abc123, milos sarcev, disgusted, possibly gh15, quickerblade... and thats about it. (i may have left some out)

I'll argue with what ever I want candy
give me an example of how much protein, carb, fat would be in "candizzle diet"
and the amount of calories...estimate
fat=fat....fat from salmon and fat from a burger are the same....both 9 calories per gram
a calorie ...IS a  calorie
yes you know alot about steroids and all that shit....
but you're wrong about this, plus drug users don't need protein to keep their muscle the steroids will do that for them 
and don't buy too much into that Milos Sarcev bullshit pumping up and choking down a 1500 calorie shake in your workout is not gonna do shit for your muscles besides
make you fat
every now and then some idiot comes to re invent the wheel and Milos Sarcev and his bullshit training is "the new thing that doesn't work"
most of the pros don't even know how to train.....what builds muscle....no fucking idea...they just do it
steroids + genetics and anything will give you results

[tbombz]

fat=fat....fat from salmon and fat from a burger are the same....both 9 calories per gram
a calorie ...IS a  calorie

no, this is basic nutritional knowledge. they effect your body very differently.

you need to learn some basics before you want to discuss things with me.

[ASJChaotic]

Maybe you'll entertain my thought exercise, Tbombz.

Let's say bodybuilder A followed a diet that got 1 gram/lb of protein in the ugliest way possible. Stuff like gelatin, beans, the odd piece of meat. Lots of incomplete protein sources. But, he ate exactly 2500 calories every day, for a year. Let's say that aside from his protein intake, he got the rest of his calories from some haphazard sources of carbs and fats. Stuff like butter, bread, milk...whatever.

Now, bodybuilder B gets 90% of his calories from the highest sources of protein known to man -- pure whey protein concentrate, with some isolate too. The highest BV of any protein source. If you want to argue BV, then let's say he just ate pure egg white. No carbs or fat, and a good quality source of protein in its own right. You get where I'm going. The only other calories (10% of his intake) came from green peppers, spinach and broccoli. Bodybuilder B also at 2500 calories per day like this.

Bodybuilder A and B are twins. They both have the same job, lifestyle, income, etc...They both train the exact same way, using the same poundages. Both natural.

Opine: how much more muscle does B gain over A, if any, over the course of 52 weeks? How much more fat does he lose, if any?

I submit, the difference will be statistically insignificant. Not hard considering n=2, but you get my point. I submit that at the end of the day, B may have gained a pound or two more than A. He may have lost a pound or two more fat than A. And at the end of it all, wouldn't A be a little happier than B? Taco Bell makes people happy Tbombz. Come on...admit it! KFC is good shit.

exactly my point
ENJOYING eating while getting to the same place the guy with tuna and eggs gets 

[ASJChaotic]

you need to learn some basics before you want to discuss things with me.

you need to learn some nutritional basics....maybe do a little studying.....maybe see some SCIENTIFIC studies
not just just gym science
and what milos sarcev tells you
I believe he said something like this in his nutrition dvd
"take 500 grams of protein everyday if you want to come next year and beat ronnie coleman"
how many times did Milos exactly beat Ronnie?
that's what I thought 

[tbombz]

Opine: how much more muscle does B gain over A, if any, over the course of 52 weeks? How much more fat does he lose, if any?

  the exact numbers would be hard to say. they would be significant. however whey proteins dont have much thermic effect, so on a cutting diet meat proteins would be more beneficial than the higher BV value whey proteins. but on a gaining diet the high BV protein would be more beneficial of course.  i do definitely think the difference would be significant and very apparent.

And at the end of it all, wouldn't A be a little happier than B? Taco Bell makes people happy Tbombz. Come on...admit it! KFC is good shit.

haha, well, hell yeah,  'junk food' make me happy too ! i eat lots of it.      HOWEVER, short term happynesspales in comparison to long term happyness. a sense of self confidence, and liking the way you look will far outweigh  the mementary pleasure of enjoying 'junk'. right ?

[ASJChaotic]

  the exact numbers would be hard to say. they would be significant. however whey proteins dont have much thermic effect, so on a cutting diet meat proteins would be more beneficial than the higher BV value whey proteins. but on a gaining diet the high BV protein would be more beneficial of course.  i do definitely think the difference would be significant and very apparent.
 haha, well, hell yeah,  'junk food' make me happy too ! i eat lots of it.      HOWEVER, short term happynesspales in comparison to long term happyness. a sense of self confidence, and liking the way you look will far outweigh  the mementary pleasure of enjoying 'junk'. right ?

again you're wrong 
the protein you get from food is better than isolate or concentrate or "celltech"
here is why
it's slow absorbing not fast absorbing like isolate
gives your body more time to use the protein rather than a quick burst
...again you think you know alot but in reality you don't know shit
hope this helps

[ASJChaotic]

Bingo, and let me elaborate further.

Most of us here on the board generally agree that for a hard training natural, one should expect about 5 lbs of muscle per year, once the "newbie" phase is complete.

So, let's say in my previous example, bodybuilder B gains that 5 pounds because he did everything right. So by my example, that means bodybuilder A put on 3 pounds. Not too shabby either. Neither probably gained any fat, maybe they both lost a few pounds.

Now, you show me the difference two pounds of muscle makes on a body. Trick question: you can't. It's insignificant.

The only time bodybuilder B's practices become significant over those of A, happens over the course of a consistent decade of applied effort.

I don't know about everyone here, but I'm not keeping up "pro bodybuilder" pace for a year, let alone a decade.

As "true" as Tbombz example is, it's not real-world applicable to 95% of bodybuilders. For those who compete, sure -- I think he's got a marginal success rate over a more relaxed plan. But for those who don't compete, but want to look jacked, be strong, and lean -- why make it so damned hard?

5 pounds a year?
maybe for you
if it was like that I wouldn't even bother lifting a dumbbell.....ever
I went from 145 pounds to 240 pounds 16% bodyfat
this year will be my second year of training and I plan on putting on 30-40 pounds of muscle
I don't know where people come up with this crazy shit of 1 lb muscle a year 

[tbombz]

the protein you get from food is better than isolate or concentrate or "celltech"

well, first off, cell tech doesnt have any protein in it.    secondly, no, actually, whey protein is the best protei source for growth. studies prove this again and again and again.

it's slow absorbing not fast absorbing like isolate

true. one point for you !  

gives your body more time to use the protein rather than a quick burst
seems that way doesnt it? 'in reality', this doesnt hold true.  whey protein always lead to more growth than any other source of protein thats 'SCIENCE'.    in fact the whole 'eat every three hours to keep protein constant' is flawed. go ask layne norton in his thread on md.com about optimal protein intake for hypertophy.

[ASJChaotic]

I'm not the one with MuscleTech product filling my room so ....
why don't you POST some of those studies
like the fucking fatloss pill "clinically proven"...I say BULLSHIT 
I don't need Layne Norton to tell me how much protein to take or what to eat....I have a brain of my own
this is the same Layne Norton who finds out he is wrong about something new everyday right? 
like the eating protein at regular basis vs big protein meals
maybe he should learn how to bench press right before he does it...not after
maybe then he won't tear a pec   

[tbombz]

I don't need Layne Norton to tell me how much protein to take or what to eat

 

[ASJChaotic]

Dude, you're 6'7", aren't you? You're not average. Average is 5'9". The numbers I gave are for average bodybuilders who've been training a few years. You're not average, and you're new to the game. Give it time.

You gained that weight in your first year. Everyone does that. No one repeats in year two. Sophmore jinx of the lifting game. You'll see.

You should fight it though. That's what will make you gain. Just don't quit even if it doesn't happen. Learn from it.

I have learned the "rules" don't apply to me
You'll see bro
atleast 30 pounds of muscle this year 
wish me luck 

[ASJChaotic]

Layne Norton = same guy who believes in "bulking"
ahhahahahhaha
same guy who thinks you need a positive energy balance to gain muscle
LOL
I don't know why you're so into him.....in reality he is an idiot who started working out cuz the girls didn't like him

[tbombz]

Layne Norton = .....in reality he is an idiot 

        

[ASJChaotic]

        

please tell me if something I said about him was wrong?
anything
everything is to a point
and did I mention he has chicken legs? 
some of the shittiest legs
I bet mine are alot bigger than his and I just started training
maybe he should try to not act such a psycho when he works out making moan and screaming sounds 

[ASJChaotic]

did I mention we both have 18 inch arms?
and I have bigger legs 
and he is "layne norton" 
some special shit
a year from now I'd destroy him in any bodybuilding competition
maybe I'll see him in muscle mania or some show
Layne Norton is no challenge for me by next year
and you can take that to the bank 

[wavelength]

this is the idea i am arguing against. protein only DOES work. very efficiently.


it seems that today in bodybuilding you have two sides - high fat and high carb.

to me, both make no sense (for a fat loss diet).

both carbs and fats both inhibit the utilization of subcutaneous adipose stores.

proteins do not (well.. they do in a way.. kind of..partially..only in excess... lol.. nevermind.. just stick with "they do not" )




certain carbs, like green leafy fibrous veggies - have fat loss benefits.

certain fats, like omega 3 (preferably epa/dha ) and omega 6 (only gla) - have fat loss benefits.

in those two macro groups, any intake other than those listed above, does not make sense (if looking for fastest possible fat loss...)


for protein intake, you want to intake enought to cover gluconeogensis(avoid catabolism), but not enough to slow down lipolysis.

I don't know what "it works" means for you. I know from my own experience, that having a very low carb diet is a lot worse than a "normal" diet, for different reasons. And I always talk about body composition change, not weight loss. Weight loss has absolutely nothing to do with bodybuilding. I have no problems whatsoever to maintain a certain rate of weight loss regardless of macro composition. I also think that macro composition (besides P1-P5) can have an effect on some people. However, my experience is that it's insignificant.

Your knowledge seems to be theoretical for the most part. Mine is empirical. Let's put it this way: I would not hit myself over the head with a hammer twice just because an egghead tells me it shouldn't have hurt the first time around.

[wavelength]

As stated in the first post of this thread, this should not be a pissing match or throwing around of scientific articles. It should be based on comparative experience only. Any new input in this regard is appreciated.