Maher: 'I Don't Trust Americans...They're Just Too F***ing Dumb!'

[MCWAY]

Like I said, there are bigger issues than Ron Paul's Christianity (which unfortunately does affect his abortion views but that is not the pressing issue of our time); he is spot on civil liberties, monetary policy and most importantly foreign policy, which is all I care about. I don't like Obama and have nothing to say about him; maybe he is bullshitting, maybe not. He's not getting my vote.

So be it. But, you've made it clear why you'd vote for Ron Paul. And, you don't think he's a moron, just because he's a Christian or that he shouldn't be running for office.

The issue is Luke's self-inflicted wounds, regarding his statements of who should and shouldn't be considered for office.

Well said Deicide...

I think most sensible people would conclude that people such as Putin are Christian for show only.

How McWay can think a believing Christian could cover up large scale institutional pedophilia (as the current Pope has) I don't know. But it might explain how someone such as Ted Hagard can be a straight married man who has sex with men, while NOT being homosexual.

Judge people by their actions.


Why can't Christians concede that they don't know for sure whether any professed Christian is a true believer in their heart...?

The Luke

GOOD JOB, genius. That's what I've said all along. Until I see some actions that conflict with Obama's or Paul's profession of faith, I will assume that those men are what they say they are.

You, on the other hand, have made bone-headed statements about these guys being atheists. Yet, when asked REPEATEDLY to show what statements or actions of theirs betray their profession of faith or show that they DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD, you cry and make pitiful excuses.

As for Benedict, it appears that you still don't read very well. If those actions of Benedict are true, then such actions are errant and decidedly un-Christian. With that said, that STILL doesn't make your utterly stupid claim, about Benedict being an atheist, valid.

This issue isn't whether Christians concede about whether someone is a true believer. So, cease with this woeful attempt to cover your backside.

You specifically that these guys were atheists (i.e. they DO NOT BELIEVE in God). So, show where such is the case. As the old saying goes, PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!

Try answering those questions for one, instead of sniveling, hiding behind hypothetical situations, and dredging up more pointless questions, in an attempt to avoid backing your previous claims.

[The Luke]

Which questions McWay, your prose isn't as well structured as you think it is...

Ask me one simple short sentence question and I'll answer it, succinctly (even though you wouldn't do the same for me).


The Luke

[MCWAY]

Which questions McWay, your prose isn't as well structured as you think it is...

Ask me one simple short sentence question and I'll answer it, succinctly (even though you wouldn't do the same for me).


The Luke

I've asked you several, which went a little something like this:

1. Obama is ALSO a religious person, or did you forget that part in all your blubbering. He professed to be a man of faith. So, genius, why are you talking about Obama being president of the United States?

2. I asked you specifically to give any actions or statements from Barack Obama (or Ron Paul or even MLK) THAT WOULD BETRAY his professed Christian beliefs.

3. Again, where in that statement do you disqualify Paul for consideration, BECAUSE OF HIS CHRISTIAN BELIEFS, which you should do automatically, based on your previous statements?

And, just in case you still don't get it.

4. What actions or statements or Ron Paul, Barack Obama, Martin Luther King betray their claim of being Christians and show that, per you claims, that they are atheists (i.e. THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD, OR ANY OTHER SUPERNATURAL DEITY)?

[The Luke]

Ask me one simple short sentence question and I'll answer it, succinctly (even though you wouldn't do the same for me).

...epic reading comprehension.

Pick one question... so we don't have to read your unending evasive diatribes.



The Luke

[MCWAY]

...epic reading comprehension.

Pick one question... so we don't have to read your unending evasive diatribes.

The Luke

You pick one and let's see if you actually answer it, instead of running away and making excuses.

[The Luke]

1. Obama is ALSO a religious person, or did you forget that part in all your blubbering. He professed to be a man of faith. So, genius, why are you talking about Obama being president of the United States?

I didn't. Not in this thread. Find the quote...

2. I asked you specifically to give any actions or statements from Barack Obama (or Ron Paul or even MLK) THAT WOULD BETRAY his professed Christian beliefs.

In Obama's case, he was raised a secularist and remained one till he decided to run for public office... even then he chose the specific congregation that would afford him the most access to the movers and shakers in the Chicago black community.

Add to this his high IQ... a religious intellectual would be quite an anomaly. An intellectual professing to be religious for political reasons is far more plausible and far more probable.

There are NO religious intellectuals in the science fields, where a profession of faith is not required... that should tell us something. There are no Kim Jong-Il worshipping intellectuals outside of North Korea either.

3. Again, where in that statement do you disqualify Paul for consideration, BECAUSE OF HIS CHRISTIAN BELIEFS, which you should do automatically, based on your previous statements?

I didn't in that statement... but neither did I ever claim the one reason I gave was the one and only reason I had... you falsely attributed that statement to me, just as you also falsely claimed that I wanted to vote for Ron Paul.

Doesn't deliberately misquoting someone in order to falsely accuse them of being a liar constitute "bearing false witness"?

4. What actions or statements or Ron Paul, Barack Obama, Martin Luther King betray their claim of being Christians and show that, per you claims, that they are atheists (i.e. THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD, OR ANY OTHER SUPERNATURAL DEITY)?

...Professing yourself a Christian doesn't make you one.

Similarly, neither have performed any actions that would by definition make them atheists either... so we don't know.

You contend that even those of distinctly un-Christian conduct can still be Christians (referring to my statements regarding Putin and Pope Benedict)... but this doesn't hold true.


And this is where religious people show themselves to be divorced from reality...

Ted Haggard professes himself to be a heterosexual Christian... but secretly he loves the cock.

He gets caught.

To his deluded congregation of religious simpletons he still is a heterosexual Christian.... just a heterosexual Christian who has "sinned".


George Bush figures Vladimir Putin (ex-KGB dirty works operative) is a good man because he wore a crucifix lapel pin. I have a tshirt that says "FBI: Federal Breast Inspector".

George Bush claims to be a born-again Christian, so the delude masses vote him president... then he carpet bombs civilians. Stalin also bombed civilians, should we believe he was a the "decent, simple man" he claimed to be?


Do you see where this is going?

Intellectuals don't believe in the literal truth of folklore... they certainly don't take one particular folktale literally as a basic tenet of their character while dismissing all other fairytales.

But would an ambitious politician fake such piety in order to win elections?


The Luke   

[loco]

Notwithstanding the issue of his Christian faith hardly being something from which Paul would need to "recover", you forget that Christians come from all walks of life. There is the little matter of Obama who, according to his bio, became a Christian AS AN ADULT.

And, there are plenty of people who've done that. In fact, if you asked Loco, he'll tell you about one of his favorite authors, A FORMER ATHEIST who became a Christian.

Just one?

Lee Strobel
Josh McDowell
C. S. Lewis
Ravi Zacharias
Francis Collins
Alister McGrath
Anne Rice...

The list goes on

[loco]

The Luke,

The Almighty says: Answer the f...freaking question.

You're worse than Sarah Palin.

...which question?


The Luke

Q: If all Christians are fools, why did you say that you'd vote for Ron Paul?  Ron Paul is an intellectual and a devout Christian.  Ron Paul is a fool?

Statement of Faith - By Rep. Ron Paul, MD.
"I freely confess that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior, and that I seek His guidance in all that I do. I know, as you do, that our freedoms come not from man, but from God. My record of public service reflects my reverence for the Natural Rights with which we have been endowed by a loving Creator."
http://www.covenantnews.com/ronpaul070721.htm

[Deicide]

Q: If all Christians are fools, why did you say that you'd vote for Ron Paul?  Ron Paul is an intellectual and a devout Christian.  Ron Paul is a fool?

Statement of Faith - By Rep. Ron Paul, MD.
"I freely confess that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior, and that I seek His guidance in all that I do. I know, as you do, that our freedoms come not from man, but from God. My record of public service reflects my reverence for the Natural Rights with which we have been endowed by a loving Creator."
http://www.covenantnews.com/ronpaul070721.htm

He is foolish to believe that his political and monetary policies/opinions are founded on Christian principles because plenty of atheists (such as myself) generally agree with him with no religious justification at all, rather a rational and philsophical one.

[The Luke]

Lee Strobel
Josh McDowell
C. S. Lewis
Ravi Zacharias
Francis Collins
Alister McGrath
Anne Rice...

...pretty short list. But without doing any Googling:

-Anne Rice... pulp novelist, not an intellectual by any stretch

-C S Lewis... mathematician and intellectual, only became religious after he developed schizophrenia (if I remember correctly)


The Luke

[Deicide]

...pretty short list. But without doing any Googling:

-Anne Rice... pulp novelist, not an intellectual by any stretch

-C S Lewis... mathematician and intellectual, only became religious after he developed schizophrenia (if I remember correctly)


The Luke

Alister McGrath is pathetic; he isn't even a good advocate of Christianity: watch him get destroyed by Peter Atkins...

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Peter+atkins+alister+mcgrath&emb=0&aq=f#

[loco]

Way to avoid the question, The Luke!

[Deicide]

Way to avoid the question, The Luke!

Way to watch that idiot Mcgrath get annihilated.

[Grape Ape]

I'm being called to task by Grape Ape for stating that Obama; Ron Paul (both self professed Christians); Martin Luther King Jr (a reverend); Mother Theresa (a nun) and the Pope (something of a religious figure in his own way) could be ASSUMED to be religious people by McWay.

The Luke

Your argument was that Obama was an athiest, despite acting completely to the contrary,  because you:  1. Assumed he was a great thinker and, 2.  Applied your theory that most great thinkers throughout history were athiests, therefore Obama must be too.

Your statement above was never what I questioned.

[big L dawg]

whats Maher have to do with this

[MCWAY]

I didn't. Not in this thread. Find the quote...

There's that short memory again!

Just for the record... McWay didn't read my post correctly, if I could vote in the American elections I'd vote for Barack Obama (my fellow atheist).

I'd prefer to vote for Ralph Nader, but he isn't a viable candidate in the US because the mean IQ has drifted so far from the average.


The Luke

In Obama's case, he was raised a secularist and remained one till he decided to run for public office... even then he chose the specific congregation that would afford him the most access to the movers and shakers in the Chicago black community.

Being raised secularist doesn't mean squat. As Loco has just shown you, there are plenty of people, some who were professed atheists, who became Christians in their adult lives. Plus, you STILL haven't demonstrated that Obama DOES NOT believe in God.

There are NO religious intellectuals in the science fields, where a profession of faith is not required... that should tell us something. There are no Kim Jong-Il worshipping intellectuals outside of North Korea either.

Wrong again! I've listed some of them earlier. But, just as a refresher: Dr. Ben Carson, Dr. Duane Gish, Dr. Robin Crossman, Dr. Kurt Wise, just ot name a few.

I didn't in that statement... but neither did I ever claim the one reason I gave was the one and only reason I had... you falsely attributed that statement to me, just as you also falsely claimed that I wanted to vote for Ron Paul.

I don't think so. I specifically stated that the lone reason you gave to Deicide for being reluctant to support Paul was his economic policies. And, I quote YOUR VERY OWN WORDS to make that point. Plus, you still miss the fact that, BY YOUR OWN WORDS, Paul shouldn't even be in consideration, because of his Christian beliefs. By your standards, he's "divorced from reality", a "moron", and he "shouldn't be considered for public office".

You've had plenty of opportunity to voice your objections to Paul, based on his religious beliefs. Guess what!!! YOU DID NOTHING OF THE SORT!!!

Doesn't deliberately misquoting someone in order to falsely accuse them of being a liar constitute "bearing false witness"?

I didn't misquote you, so please stop crying and making that accusation, every time you fall short in backing up your statements. I cited your words, exactly and I've done it more than once.

...Professing yourself a Christian doesn't make you one.

Similarly, neither have performed any actions that would by definition make them atheists either... so we don't know.

That's why we have this crazy thing called BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT. If you don't know, stop making STUPID STATEMENTS, such as the one you made earlier about Obama being "my fellow atheist".

You contend that even those of distinctly un-Christian conduct can still be Christians (referring to my statements regarding Putin and Pope Benedict)... but this doesn't hold true.


And this is where religious people show themselves to be divorced from reality...

Ted Haggard professes himself to be a heterosexual Christian... but secretly he loves the cock.

He gets caught.

To his deluded congregation of religious simpletons he still is a heterosexual Christian.... just a heterosexual Christian who has "sinned".


George Bush figures Vladimir Putin (ex-KGB dirty works operative) is a good man because he wore a crucifix lapel pin. I have a tshirt that says "FBI: Federal Breast Inspector".

George Bush claims to be a born-again Christian, so the delude masses vote him president... then he carpet bombs civilians. Stalin also bombed civilians, should we believe he was a the "decent, simple man" he claimed to be?


Do you see where this is going?

Yep, it's going to be your feet down your gullet.....AGAIN. The issue wasn't whether or not they were Christians. It was whether or not, per your claims, they were atheists (i.e. they DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD or any other supernatural deity).

Intellectuals don't believe in the literal truth of folklore... they certainly don't take one particular folktale literally as a basic tenet of their character while dismissing all other fairytales.

Tell that to Jay Sekulow, the late D. James Kennedy, and the others listed earlier.

But would an ambitious politician fake such piety in order to win elections?

The Luke   

Maybe, maybe not. The problem is YOU HAVE NOTHING that shows that such is the case. And, you've been asked to produce such on multiple occasions. Instead, you opt to whine, bleat, moan, and make pitiful accusations.

[MCWAY]

...pretty short list. But without doing any Googling:

-Anne Rice... pulp novelist, not an intellectual by any stretch

-C S Lewis... mathematician and intellectual, only became religious after he developed schizophrenia (if I remember correctly)

The Luke

When did Loco claim that this list was exhaustive? Plus, these are Loco's favorites. That certainly doesn't mean that these are the only Christians who were once atheists.

[loco]

When did Loco claim that this list was exhaustive? Plus, these are Loco's favorites. That certainly doesn't mean that these are the only Christians who were once atheists.

Exactly, I did say that there are many more, plus the length of the list is irrelevant.  The mere existence of this list is what's relevant, in light of The Luke's claims.

The Luke, are you going to answer my question?

[loco]

There are NO religious intellectuals in the science fields, where a profession of faith is not required... that should tell us something.

WHAT?

As examples of "good scientists who are sincerely religious", Dawkins names Arthur Peacocke, Russell Stannard, John Polkinghorne and Francis Collins.
- Dawkins, Richard (2006). The God Delusion, 99. ISBN 0-618-68000-4. 

Here are more:

Among the fathers of the so-called modern synthesis, Theodosius Dobzhansky was a Christian and something of an amateur theologian; Sir Ronald Fisher was a deeply devout Anglican who, between founding modern statistics and population genetics, penned articles for church magazines.
- H. Allen Orr, "Gould on God", Can religion and science be happily reconciled?
http://www.bostonreview.net/BR24.5/orr.html

And that's just to name a few.

The Luke,
are you going to answer my question, or are you going to keep changing the subject to avoid it?

[Deicide]

WHAT?

As examples of "good scientists who are sincerely religious", Dawkins names Arthur Peacocke, Russell Stannard, John Polkinghorne and Francis Collins.
- Dawkins, Richard (2006). The God Delusion, 99. ISBN 0-618-68000-4. 

Here are more:

Among the fathers of the so-called modern synthesis, Theodosius Dobzhansky was a Christian and something of an amateur theologian; Sir Ronald Fisher was a deeply devout Anglican who, between founding modern statistics and population genetics, penned articles for church magazines.
- H. Allen Orr, "Gould on God", Can religion and science be happily reconciled?
http://www.bostonreview.net/BR24.5/orr.html

And that's just to name a few.

The Luke,
are you going to answer my question, or are you going to keep changing the subject to avoid it?

All of these scientists support Evolution in every respect. Tell that to your Young Earth Creationist friend MCWAY, cabron.

[loco]

All of these scientists support Evolution in every respect. Tell that to your Young Earth Creationist friend MCWAY, cabron.

That's irrelevant to this discussion and this still very much contradicts The Luke's claim that "There are NO religious intellectuals in the science fields."  These are devout Christians and they are very well known modern scientists.

[Deicide]

That's irrelevant to this discussion and this still very much contradicts The Luke's claim that "There are NO religious intellectuals in the science fields."  These are devout Christians and very well known modern scientists.

Who regard Evolution as fact. You should argue with MCWAY about this; he thinks the world is 6,000 years old.

[loco]

Who regard Evolution as fact. You should argue with MCWAY about this; he thinks the world is 6,000 years old.

Then you should argue with The Luke who claims that "There are NO religious intellectuals in the science fields" and also claims that Ron Paul is an atheist.

[The Luke]

This thread is a prime example of what Bill Maher is talking about...

Religious morons misquoting and misrepresenting the other side of the argument so they can convince themselves they are right.

Way to avoid the question, The Luke!

The Luke, are you going to answer my question?

The Luke,
are you going to answer my question, or are you going to keep changing the subject to avoid it?

...which question? This one:

Q: If all Christians are fools, why did you say that you'd vote for Ron Paul?  Ron Paul is an intellectual and a devout Christian.  Ron Paul is a fool?

...I can't answer this as I never said I would vote for Ron Paul.
Am I actually being attacked for something I DIDN'T say...? How logical is that?

I'm sure loco could edit a quote of mine to make it seem that I did (as McWay has done to suit his own ends) but I was pretty explicit with some of my exceptions.


To answer the question I assume is implied here.

Yes... if Ron Paul truly is a devout religious believer (there's no way we can know for sure as Vladimir Putin and many others also claim such yet their actions are at odds with Christian beliefs), but if he is truly a believer, then yes... Yes he is a fool. Such an irrational belief would immediately demote him from any intellectual status... perhaps he is quasi-rational; high functioning in some areas, yet unable to think rationally in other areas. 

To clarify... yes, there are NO religious scientists.

Quoting a list of ten; or twenty religious academics doesn't negate the validity of this statement.

Roughly a thousand Nobel Prizes have been awarded in the sciences (usually teams win)... maybe two or three of these scientists are religious. So the objection here is regarding the 0.01% who express some form of religious/spiritual belief.

That's fine by me... I'm happy to be only 99.9% right when my detractors are 99.9% wrong.


The Luke

[loco]

This thread is a prime example of what Bill Maher is talking about...

Religious morons misquoting and misrepresenting the other side of the argument so they can convince themselves they are right.

...which question? This one:
...I can't answer this as I never said I would vote for Ron Paul.
Am I actually being attacked for something I DIDN'T say...? How logical is that?

I'm sure loco could edit a quote of mine to make it seem that I did (as McWay has done to suit his own ends) but I was pretty explicit with some of my exceptions.


To answer the question I assume is implied here.

Yes... if Ron Paul truly is a devout religious believer (there's no way we can know for sure as Vladimir Putin and many others also claim such yet their actions are at odds with Christian beliefs), but if he is truly a believer, then yes... Yes he is a fool. Such an irrational belief would immediately demote him from any intellectual status... perhaps he is quasi-rational; high functioning in some areas, yet unable to think rationally in other areas. 

To clarify... yes, there are NO religious scientists.

Quoting a list of ten; or twenty religious academics doesn't negate the validity of this statement.

Roughly a thousand Nobel Prizes have been awarded in the sciences (usually teams win)... maybe two or three of these scientists are religious. So the objection here is regarding the 0.01% who express some form of religious/spiritual belief.

That's fine by me... I'm happy to be only 99.9% right when my detractors are 99.9% wrong.


The Luke

The Luke,
Thanks very much for finally answering my question!  I apologize if you never said that you would ever support or vote for Ron Paul.  If I understood correctly, Ron Paul is a fool to you and you'd never support him or vote for him.

Yes, I can edit your quotes.  Anybody can.  But I would never do that, and I doubt MCWAY would either.

As for "religious intellectuals in the science fields", you did not say that there are very few.  You said that there are none.  So you were wrong.  And the scientists I listed are no ordinary scientists.  They are some of the best and they have made great contributions to modern science.