Author Topic: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?  (Read 103054 times)

tbombz

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2008, 11:39:02 AM »
Let's say I trust my instincts over those of Milos Sarcev.
Thats good. You always should trust your self before anybody else.


Let's say he isn't the smartest bodybuilder out there.......which is an oxymoron in itself, eh "tbombz"?   ;D

Actually Milos is just about THE SMARTEST bodybuilder 'out there'.  :)

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2008, 01:32:42 PM »
Let's say I trust my instincts over those of Milos Sarcev.

I didn't get arrested for trying to import fake GH kits.

The guy is decent with dieting for competitors but that's as far as I'm going with the cred.

Let's say he isn't the smartest bodybuilder out there.......which is an oxymoron in itself, eh "tbombz"?   ;D



DIV

Have you ever had a one on one conversation with Milos about diet, drugs, etc?  You should give it a shot before you pass judgement.

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2008, 02:14:46 PM »
Have you ever had a one on one conversation with Milos about diet, drugs, etc?  You should give it a shot before you pass judgement.

I said it was obvious that Milos knows diet, but as far as drugs and what works best with other people, I'm not sure anyone can really make that kind of judgement.

Author L. Rea knows alot about drugs, cycling and has his own theories and I don't agree with alot of what he says.

I didn't agree with everything Dan Duchaine said either, and some of his theories were proven wrong.

Don't even get me started on Dave Palumbo....    ::)


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dustin

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2008, 04:09:04 PM »
I said it was obvious that Milos knows diet, but as far as drugs and what works best with other people, I'm not sure anyone can really make that kind of judgement.

Author L. Rea knows alot about drugs, cycling and has his own theories and I don't agree with alot of what he says.

I didn't agree with everything Dan Duchaine said either, and some of his theories were proven wrong.

Don't even get me started on Dave Palumbo....    ::)


DIV

Heh, I agree. I'll listen to what any one of them says regarding DIETARY advice but when it comes to drugs, I think it's best to formulate your own opinions through countless hours of research.

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2008, 04:12:50 PM »
MIlos sarcev is the ONLY "insulin guru" in bodybuilding. Everyone else was either taught by Milos, or got second hand info from Milos. Everyone in his family besides him are/were doctors, and he spent many many years in the late 80's early 90's doing his own research on insulin. He came up with the 10g carb per iu measurement, no on in the academic community did. He experimented and consulted with doctors and professionals and looked at studies at tests and the science and came up with an insulin protocol all on his own. 

Well, I am a doctor, who also has multiple bachelors degrees, graduate training, an internship, and a residency under his belt.  Management of diabetes in multiple species is a research interest of mine, one of which I hope to be finishing a pioneering peer reviewed paper in one species soon.... If I can get the time to get one of my coauthors to get the damned thing finished.   I'm not a competitive bodybuilder, but I am a competitive powerlifter and I've spent over 20 years hanging around the bodybuilding/powerlifting "scene".   I've also been a Type I diabetic for almost 25 years.  

I will go on record saying what I've seen online with insulin managment protocols for nondiabetic bodybuilders borders on what I can only call borderline asanine.   What I see happening is there is this intense focus on a very small aspect of the effects of a hormone which is part of a complex hormone cascade that is not only poorly explained, its poorly approached and there is very little to no thought on counterregulatory mechanisms that the body has in place to accomplish the one real goal the body has with blood glucose----maintain blood glucose within a very narrow range so that the brain has the fuel it needs to function correctly.   This is what the body will do no matter what.  this is its ultimate goal, because if the brain doesn't have fuel, you will die.  Its that simple.  Your body doesn't want to die.  

Now, I don't know if its a case of the bastardization of "Milo's ideas" or if its the simple fact that he didn't fully think things through and presented them to an online audience desperate to take a magic drug to help the "build muscle", but insulin metabolism is way more complex than I've seen presented on any single bodybuilding forum.   I haven't had the opportunity to sit down and discuss insulin metabolism with Milos---I would gladly if we could figure out schedules---I just haven't done it.   I also think that he may have done work to develop an idea as a nonmedical (this includes physiology) trained individual, but unless one of you has directly gone through one of his protocols, you don't have shit to work with other than opinions and word of mouth---which we all know will result in errors and warping of information, especially if its internet derived.

You are a fool if you think insulin is as simple as 1 unit per 10 grams of simple carbs.  Its not.  There is variation from individual to individual.  Thats why with the case of diabetics, all diabetics must use insulin doses specific to their own bodies.   Insulin is not dosed on a mg/kg basis and its not dosed on a unit/gram carb basis for everyone because every individuals body has different sensitivities to the hormone dependant on a variety of different factors from food sensitivities, carbohydrate content of your diet, glycemic index of those carbs, stress, exercise, body composition, and other hormone levels (testosterone administration or GH as examples).  You simply cannot make a blanket statement like that.  Its not true.    The body also has "leeway" with counterregulatory hormones, thats why people can get by taking insulin when they are not diabetic.  No one has ever objectively studied in a peer reviewed modality exactly what happens to a nondiabetic taking insulin.  There is no way you can say its safe or isn't safe because it's not known.  What is known is insulin will cause hypoglycemia in a nondiabetic if taken at suffient of a dose and that hypoglycemia will cause brain damage if its prolonged.  There is no arguing with that.  


Quote
I agree with you about hard training, diet , and rest. But that only goes so far. I think absolutely no one has any business using any hormones at all unless there diet training and lifestyle is 100% on point.  But for a dedicated athlete who wants more than the human body has to offer, its fair game and a personal choice.

Thanks

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2008, 04:16:10 PM »
Heh, I agree. I'll listen to what any one of them says regarding DIETARY advice but when it comes to drugs, I think it's best to formulate your own opinions through countless hours of research.

Just don't believe everything you read on the internet or in online forums--its often incomplete or onesided. Think things through and try to get a basic understanding of how your body works before you start pumping shit into it.  Your body is the only one youve got.  Its not worth it to permenantly screw yourself up for 5 more lbs of muscle you could probably gain if you were more patient. 

tbombz

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2008, 04:39:24 PM »
Vet Milos has a Q&A on the positive board. You should go discuss insulin with him.

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2008, 04:40:09 PM »
Vet Milos has a Q&A on the positive board. You should go discuss insulin with him.

I asked Milos to post on this thread, if he doesn't post here, maybe starting up a thread in his Q&A thread on the positive board would be cool.

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2008, 04:42:04 PM »
I've tried it on various occasions and got so full and big from it I was almost uncomfortable.  Crazy pumps and size.  Used it with test and A50 and only on training days and only for 4 weeks at a time. 

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2008, 04:50:58 PM »
insulin dangers are way overrated, i had a post back when I first tried it last year, I injected 50 iu first day, 70iu second day and 70iu the next, experienced diziness and number tongue other than that I was fine.  10 - 15iu is a cake walk even 20iu, not side effects if you eat afterwards.  Btw the 50iu and 70iu was when i was measuring the shit wrong in my sryring not on purpose.

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2008, 05:15:28 PM »
You are a fool if you think insulin is as simple as 1 unit per 10 grams of simple carbs.  Its not.  There is variation from individual to individual.  Thats why with the case of diabetics, all diabetics must use insulin doses specific to their own bodies.   Insulin is not dosed on a mg/kg basis and its not dosed on a unit/gram carb basis for everyone because every individuals body has different sensitivities to the hormone dependant on a variety of different factors from food sensitivities, carbohydrate content of your diet, glycemic index of those carbs, stress, exercise, body composition, and other hormone levels (testosterone administration or GH as examples).  You simply cannot make a blanket statement like that.  Its not true.    The body also has "leeway" with counterregulatory hormones, thats why people can get by taking insulin when they are not diabetic.  No one has ever objectively studied in a peer reviewed modality exactly what happens to a nondiabetic taking insulin.  There is no way you can say its safe or isn't safe because it's not known.  What is known is insulin will cause hypoglycemia in a nondiabetic if taken at suffient of a dose and that hypoglycemia will cause brain damage if its prolonged.  There is no arguing with that.  

Taken directly from the doctor......

I don't think most "bodybuilders" take in to account the details when it comes to exogenous insulin, such as bodytype and the counter-regulatory mechanisms you described.

Most bodybuilders would only see the "1IU/10G simple sugars" part of the equation and fuck the details.

The problem is, the details when you deal with insulin are EVERYTHING.

I'm sure a good percentage of the population fall within the "leeway" range, where getting some post-workout insulin won't put them at risk but it's by no means something that should be promoted.

I think Insulin use falls in the same cateogry as DNP.

There are no longterm studies done with the specific population in mind (bodybuilders) to really give any safe guidelines.



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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2008, 05:20:25 PM »
I definitely agree. I have to take almost 20gs of carbs per IU of slin to keep my blood levels stable.  It took some experimentation to find that out :)

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2008, 08:43:57 PM »
Just don't believe everything you read on the internet or in online forums--its often incomplete or onesided. Think things through and try to get a basic understanding of how your body works before you start pumping shit into it.  Your body is the only one youve got.  Its not worth it to permenantly screw yourself up for 5 more lbs of muscle you could probably gain if you were more patient. 

Thanks for the concern. I'm not one to read things off the internet and immediately begin emulating what I've read. I make sure to educate myself as extensively as possible regarding anything, not just with drugs and whatnot. I'm definitely not the type of person to read a drug use tutorial and begin using my body as a guinea pig, especially with something like insulin. That's why I've recommended that anyone who plans on using it becomes as close to a guru as possible, given the limited amount of resources for the lay person (PubMed/Medline, peer reviewed studies, text books, etc).

While I love the internet for all it's worth, that's one of the biggest challenges. People skim over shit and selectively retain what they've read... "insulin, get hyoooge, 10g of carbs per iu of slin to be on the safe side, maybe buy a glucose monitor, should be 100% okay if I just keep some glucose tabs handy"... scary stuff. It's one thing to piss about with androgens and other drugs but with slin, a single dose can kill. In Canada, even if you're just buying slin pins a lot of places require you to sign off on it. While it's annoying (because I use some peptides and injectable vitamins), it's better than having some dumbass buy some slin at the pharmacy and end up killing himself.

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2008, 03:52:34 AM »
Why Insulin works:
Androgen/Insulin Synergy
By Michalovich Greutstein


Should anabolics be used with insulin or is it best to use insulin while off steroids in order to hold onto muscle mass?
We are going to demonstrate that they have to be used together. We will also try to provide some clues about their respective contribution to the synergy both hormones create. This will help us to handle both drugs better.
Here are some general observations:
It is safe to conclude something else is needed to uncover the full anabolic effect of steroids. The hormone which is the most affected by a high calorie or by a low calorie diet is insulin. Also, heavy steroid users know that past a certain amount of steroids, adding insulin will make a big difference as far as muscle gains are concerned. Insulin is thus a strong candidate as a potentiator of anabolic steroids (which we will indiscriminately refer to as androgens, steroids or anabolics). Furthermore, studies performed in trained dogs have shown a lack of insulin completely negates the anabolic effects of steroids on protein synthesis. There are some easy hypotheses such as a possible androgen receptor up regulation, a stimulation of androgen secretion, an antiaromatase effect arising from insulin. But, there is still something missing.
Using anabolics plus insulin will not make you much bigger unless you weight train. The synergy can only be realized if insulin + steroids + training are present. What is the link between those three factors?
A very likely candidate is an enzyme called insulinase. As its name implies, it is an enzyme responsible for the destruction of insulin. But we are going to see it does much more than that.
It is found inside many tissues of the body, particularly in muscle. What science is telling us is that insulinase is essential for insulin to provide its anti-catabolic effect on our muscles. It is also likely that insulinase is able to multiply the anabolic effects of androgens. It's worth repeating: insulin cannot stop protein catabolism without insulinase and the effects of steroids are potentiated by insulinase. It sure looks good.
Androgens are very powerful stimulators of the muscle protein synthesis rate. On the other hand, the muscle gains provided by androgens do not match this elevation in synthesis. steroids promote anabolism to a much higher rate than they make our muscles grow.
The reason for this discrepancy is that they also stimulate protein degradation. I know many people think they are anti-catabolic, but it is not the case. Anabolics stimulate protein turnover. This means they increase both synthesis and degradation of proteins. They are simply more effective at stimulating synthesis than degradation, which is why they make our muscles grow but not at a super fast rate. Look at how long it takes to grow huge muscles. If androgens were stimulating synthesis while inhibiting degradation, one would grow very, very quickly.
This is where insulin comes in. As we said, it mostly reduces protein degradation rate. It might stimulate protein synthesis right after training, but this effect is very limited in duration. Ideally, using insulin along with steroids would allow us to accelerate synthesis (thanks to anabolics) and reduce degradation (thanks to insulin). This is the best way to grow muscle fast.
Unfortunately, as both insulin and anabolics need insulinase to work better, they will compete against each other for this enzyme. For natural athletes, the supply of muscle insulinase should roughly meet the demand. Now if you add anabolics, there will be less insulinase for insulin. If you do not take too high a dose of steroids, the level of insulinase should still be sufficient to allow a fair insulin-induced anti-catabolism.
But as you take more steroids, the insulinase available for insulin will be lower and lower.
Insulin will lose its anti-catabolic effect. As it will still bind some insulinase, the enzyme availability for steroids will not be optimal either. Anabolics will lose some of their potency.
What is important to understand is that past a certain dose, anabolics will provide their own antidote against muscle growth. The only solution (beside using less steroids) is to increase insulinase level.
At least two factors can accomplish this feat:
The first one is insulin itself. The higher the insulin level is in a target organ (muscle for example) the higher the insulinase level will be. You would expect that the body would detect the shortage of insulinase for insulin and so produce more insulin (or more insulinase).
Unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case. While insulinase is crucial for the anti-catabolic effect of insulin, it does not seem as important for glucose disposal.
Insulin's main function is not to assist in muscle growth but to control glucose homeostasis. As a result, it is likely our body does not really care about a relative shortage of insulinase. In any case, we are left with a less than optimal equilibrium. It is up to the bodybuilder to react to this imbalance.
One way of increasing insulin secretion is to eat more, but you can only do so up to a point. You cannot increase your carb intake in parallel with the amount of steroids without getting too fat. Another solution is to use drugs to add or to stimulate insulin secretion. This way you get the insulin without the excess of calories.
In any case you now understand why steroids work better while on a high calorie diet while they lose their potency during a diet or a shortage of insulin.
Here is a way of "artificially increasing insulin level": One dose of long acting insulin first thing in the morning (this is the only injection). Before each meal (except the pre-workout one), take a sulfonylurea (an oral anti-diabetic drug which will boost food induced insulin secretion ). I like Glipizide because of its short half-life. In case you experience hypoglycemia, you know it will not last. This is the main problem with the long acting sulfonylureas. When you are hypoglycemic, you try to compensate by absorbing carbs. But the drug will make your pancreas secrete even more insulin before the carbs can hit the blood. It makes the hypoglycemia worse - not better.
In case of problems, make sure you get some ready-to-inject Glucagon (sold as "insulin emergency kits" in drugstores). An additional benefit of the Glipizide is that it induces the release of GH on top of insulin which is beneficial for non diabetics.
This is a nice way to fix the reduced anticatabolic property of insulin. Unfortunately, this will not yet provide the optimal amount of insulinase to have steroids work better.
We said that training was the third key ingredient in this synergy. This is because training can stimulate insulinase activity. Not any exercise will do. The traumatic ones inducing muscle soreness are the most effective. It is the factors inducing soreness which will trigger this increase in insulinase.
On the other hand, you do not want to create too much soreness as it will temporarily reduce the effects of insulin and androgens by impairing their effects at the level of their respective receptors. What you want is mild but frequent soreness along with some very frequent pumping sessions.
Do not forget both androgens and insulin circulate in the blood. The more blood you get into the muscles (and the longer it stays), the more your muscles will be "drenched" in those two hormones. Please note that insulinase is produced locally in the trained muscles only. It does not circulate into the blood.

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2008, 08:56:23 AM »
Vet Milos has a Q&A on the positive board. You should go discuss insulin with him.

From what I've seen Milos could not discuss anything with Vet. He simply does not have the knowledge. That's not to say that whatever Milos does isn't effective just that he doesn't have the education to discuss the technical details. It's like his amino drink theory. ask him why amino acids supplementation prior/during workouts speeds muscle growth. He will answer "isn't it obvious, you have better blood flow during training." No it's not obvious, not from a scientific POV. Same with the insulin; I asked him in his thread to elaborate on why and how exogenous insulin 'works'. He wouldn't. He simply could not hang with Vet... because he doesn't have the training.

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2008, 09:29:16 AM »
From what I've seen Milos could not discuss anything with Vet. He simply does not have the knowledge. That's not to say that whatever Milos does isn't effective just that he doesn't have the education to discuss the technical details. It's like his amino drink theory. ask him why amino acids supplementation prior/during workouts speeds muscle growth. He will answer "isn't it obvious, you have better blood flow during training." No it's not obvious, not from a scientific POV. Same with the insulin; I asked him in his thread to elaborate on why and how exogenous insulin 'works'. He wouldn't. He simply could not hang with Vet... because he doesn't have the training.

I concur.

I think Milos knows his shit, but "attempting" to have a level educated arguement with him is impossible. he twists everything around to confuse you and uses all these big words to make it seem like he knows it all. i have read just about everything the man has written, and i find too many holes in it, but i think he is one of the pioneers of this industry.

i have seen him dodge Van's questions so many times, or he replies with a question trying to change the subject.

There is no doubt in my mind that Milos is an Insulin guru, but trying to debate him is a very big waste of time. just read any of his 1500 word replies to simple 1 word answer questions. he is a master of misdirection.


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tbombz

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2008, 09:58:26 AM »
From what I've seen Milos could not discuss anything with Vet. He simply does not have the knowledge. That's not to say that whatever Milos does isn't effective just that he doesn't have the education to discuss the technical details. It's like his amino drink theory. ask him why amino acids supplementation prior/during workouts speeds muscle growth. He will answer "isn't it obvious, you have better blood flow during training." No it's not obvious, not from a scientific POV. Same with the insulin; I asked him in his thread to elaborate on why and how exogenous insulin 'works'. He wouldn't. He simply could not hang with Vet... because he doesn't have the training.
I observe the same thing, but I feel its probably because he doesnt want to disrespect those who come to him with MONEY + questions, not just questions alone.

I am going to go visit his gym this winter and have a one on one with him.

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2008, 10:06:59 AM »
I observe the same thing, but I feel its probably because he doesnt want to disrespect those who come to him with MONEY + questions, not just questions alone.


You mean by giving away info that others pay for? I haven't asked for protocols just general technical details about drugs or diet methods. The amino acid/blood flow theory is a lot like the 'fascia limits muscle growth so Synthol will allow for more growth by stretching it' theory. Neither of those are facts IMO. They could be true or partly true but not obviously so.

He doesn't seem to mind talking about his theories. Just won't elaborate on the 'facts' as he sees them.

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2008, 11:30:39 AM »
Why Insulin works:
Androgen/Insulin Synergy
By Michalovich Greutstein


Should anabolics be used with insulin or is it best to use insulin while off steroids in order to hold onto muscle mass?
We are going to demonstrate that they have to be used together. We will also try to provide some clues about their respective contribution to the synergy both hormones create. This will help us to handle both drugs better.
Here are some general observations:
It is safe to conclude something else is needed to uncover the full anabolic effect of steroids. The hormone which is the most affected by a high calorie or by a low calorie diet is insulin. Also, heavy steroid users know that past a certain amount of steroids, adding insulin will make a big difference as far as muscle gains are concerned. Insulin is thus a strong candidate as a potentiator of anabolic steroids (which we will indiscriminately refer to as androgens, steroids or anabolics). Furthermore, studies performed in trained dogs have shown a lack of insulin completely negates the anabolic effects of steroids on protein synthesis. There are some easy hypotheses such as a possible androgen receptor up regulation, a stimulation of androgen secretion, an antiaromatase effect arising from insulin. But, there is still something missing.
Using anabolics plus insulin will not make you much bigger unless you weight train. The synergy can only be realized if insulin + steroids + training are present. What is the link between those three factors?
A very likely candidate is an enzyme called insulinase. As its name implies, it is an enzyme responsible for the destruction of insulin. But we are going to see it does much more than that.
It is found inside many tissues of the body, particularly in muscle. What science is telling us is that insulinase is essential for insulin to provide its anti-catabolic effect on our muscles. It is also likely that insulinase is able to multiply the anabolic effects of androgens. It's worth repeating: insulin cannot stop protein catabolism without insulinase and the effects of steroids are potentiated by insulinase. It sure looks good.
Androgens are very powerful stimulators of the muscle protein synthesis rate. On the other hand, the muscle gains provided by androgens do not match this elevation in synthesis. steroids promote anabolism to a much higher rate than they make our muscles grow.
The reason for this discrepancy is that they also stimulate protein degradation. I know many people think they are anti-catabolic, but it is not the case. Anabolics stimulate protein turnover. This means they increase both synthesis and degradation of proteins. They are simply more effective at stimulating synthesis than degradation, which is why they make our muscles grow but not at a super fast rate. Look at how long it takes to grow huge muscles. If androgens were stimulating synthesis while inhibiting degradation, one would grow very, very quickly.
This is where insulin comes in. As we said, it mostly reduces protein degradation rate. It might stimulate protein synthesis right after training, but this effect is very limited in duration. Ideally, using insulin along with steroids would allow us to accelerate synthesis (thanks to anabolics) and reduce degradation (thanks to insulin). This is the best way to grow muscle fast.
Unfortunately, as both insulin and anabolics need insulinase to work better, they will compete against each other for this enzyme. For natural athletes, the supply of muscle insulinase should roughly meet the demand. Now if you add anabolics, there will be less insulinase for insulin. If you do not take too high a dose of steroids, the level of insulinase should still be sufficient to allow a fair insulin-induced anti-catabolism.
But as you take more steroids, the insulinase available for insulin will be lower and lower.
Insulin will lose its anti-catabolic effect. As it will still bind some insulinase, the enzyme availability for steroids will not be optimal either. Anabolics will lose some of their potency.
What is important to understand is that past a certain dose, anabolics will provide their own antidote against muscle growth. The only solution (beside using less steroids) is to increase insulinase level.
At least two factors can accomplish this feat:
The first one is insulin itself. The higher the insulin level is in a target organ (muscle for example) the higher the insulinase level will be. You would expect that the body would detect the shortage of insulinase for insulin and so produce more insulin (or more insulinase).
Unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case. While insulinase is crucial for the anti-catabolic effect of insulin, it does not seem as important for glucose disposal.
Insulin's main function is not to assist in muscle growth but to control glucose homeostasis. As a result, it is likely our body does not really care about a relative shortage of insulinase. In any case, we are left with a less than optimal equilibrium. It is up to the bodybuilder to react to this imbalance.
One way of increasing insulin secretion is to eat more, but you can only do so up to a point. You cannot increase your carb intake in parallel with the amount of steroids without getting too fat. Another solution is to use drugs to add or to stimulate insulin secretion. This way you get the insulin without the excess of calories.
In any case you now understand why steroids work better while on a high calorie diet while they lose their potency during a diet or a shortage of insulin.
Here is a way of "artificially increasing insulin level": One dose of long acting insulin first thing in the morning (this is the only injection). Before each meal (except the pre-workout one), take a sulfonylurea (an oral anti-diabetic drug which will boost food induced insulin secretion ). I like Glipizide because of its short half-life. In case you experience hypoglycemia, you know it will not last. This is the main problem with the long acting sulfonylureas. When you are hypoglycemic, you try to compensate by absorbing carbs. But the drug will make your pancreas secrete even more insulin before the carbs can hit the blood. It makes the hypoglycemia worse - not better.
In case of problems, make sure you get some ready-to-inject Glucagon (sold as "insulin emergency kits" in drugstores). An additional benefit of the Glipizide is that it induces the release of GH on top of insulin which is beneficial for non diabetics.
This is a nice way to fix the reduced anticatabolic property of insulin. Unfortunately, this will not yet provide the optimal amount of insulinase to have steroids work better.
We said that training was the third key ingredient in this synergy. This is because training can stimulate insulinase activity. Not any exercise will do. The traumatic ones inducing muscle soreness are the most effective. It is the factors inducing soreness which will trigger this increase in insulinase.
On the other hand, you do not want to create too much soreness as it will temporarily reduce the effects of insulin and androgens by impairing their effects at the level of their respective receptors. What you want is mild but frequent soreness along with some very frequent pumping sessions.
Do not forget both androgens and insulin circulate in the blood. The more blood you get into the muscles (and the longer it stays), the more your muscles will be "drenched" in those two hormones. Please note that insulinase is produced locally in the trained muscles only. It does not circulate into the blood.

Please tell me this isn't something you've tried to use as a reference for taking insulin.......   This is a prime example of the problem with internet information I feel like I'm harping on  (And I apologize for the harping to those it annoys). 


tbombz

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2008, 11:44:27 AM »
Please tell me this isn't something you've tried to use as a reference for taking insulin.......   This is a prime example of the problem with internet information I feel like I'm harping on  (And I apologize for the harping to those it annoys). 


Nope just an article relevant to the discussion of insulin. Is there an error in it? I wouldnt know, im not a doctor; if there is could you point it out?

Vet

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2008, 12:42:46 PM »
Nope just an article relevant to the discussion of insulin. Is there an error in it? I wouldnt know, im not a doctor; if there is could you point it out?
If you have that attitude, then I strongly suggest you give up even remotely thinking that you can self medicate and do it with even the slightest bit of safety....


You dont' have to be a doctor to see the errors in the article you posted.  Just read it carefully.  I saw several places it contradicted itself.  Then there are the factual errors.


I don't have time to go line by line through it right now (I'm at work), but I should get time later today or tomorrow if you can please wait. 


tbombz

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2008, 03:14:00 PM »
If you have that attitude, then I strongly suggest you give up even remotely thinking that you can self medicate and do it with even the slightest bit of safety....


You dont' have to be a doctor to see the errors in the article you posted.  Just read it carefully.  I saw several places it contradicted itself.  Then there are the factual errors.


I don't have time to go line by line through it right now (I'm at work), but I should get time later today or tomorrow if you can please wait. 


If you could go in to some detail about the insulinase enzyme and how it interacts with androgens and insulin and weight training, that would be of great help. I had never heard of it before I read through(skimmed though) that article.. thats why I posted it...so a more knowledgeable person like yourself could clear up my confusion on that particular bit of science.

WillGrant

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2008, 05:45:50 PM »
insulin dangers are way overrated, i had a post back when I first tried it last year, I injected 50 iu first day, 70iu second day and 70iu the next, experienced diziness and number tongue other than that I was fine.  10 - 15iu is a cake walk even 20iu, not side effects if you eat afterwards.  Btw the 50iu and 70iu was when i was measuring the shit wrong in my sryring not on purpose.

jt
You were having a hypoglycemic episode, if you were having those symptoms you were not fine ,you were dam lucky..


Vet

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2008, 09:49:27 PM »
You were having a hypoglycemic episode, if you were having those symptoms you were not fine ,you were dam lucky..




yup

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Re: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2008, 01:50:54 AM »
To those who have asked.  I will not give out Milos' INS protocols.  Give him a call at his gym and request a consultation if you want the info.

It's not that I don't want to help.  I just don't want to give away information that Milos typically charges for.  He has spent many years developing his methods and they are worth your $. 

And, I don't want to be responsible for anyone trying insulin and screwing up.  It's not something you try based on hearsay on message boards.  That would be VERY stupid.

Also, I think you guys would be suprised at his level of 'medical' understanding surrounding his protocols.  I doubt he knows as much about medicine as a doctor like 'Vet,' but I'm almost positive he could keep up and answer Vet's questions.

Look, I've spoken with him about this stuff at length and it's obvious he knows what he is talking about.  Just because he does not respond to all questions on this board does not mean he does not have a response.

Vet, why don't you PM him and see if you can arrange either a phone or online chat?  I would love to hear your opinion, as I value your input.