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Author Topic: Insulin why do bodybuilders take it?  (Read 37199 times)
ASJChaotic
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« on: September 27, 2008, 05:43:14 PM »

Ok as far as I know Insulin is a hormone that takes sugar (carbs) from blood and stores them, in muscle and or in fat cells
now why do bodybuilders take it?
could they just not eat more carbs to have more insulin?
can someone explain this?  Huh
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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2008, 07:07:41 PM »

To pile drive nutrients into their muscles. Glucose and amino acids will only signal your pancreas to send out so much insulin. When you inject exogenous insulin you'll stimulate a heck of a lot more glycogen formation than you would by simply consuming a lot of sugar. There are lots of risks however.

It can be used in a simple enough fashion and safely enough, but I feel that anyone who uses insulin needs to have a vast knowledge base regarding this hormone. You should be able to sputter insulin information at the drop of a hat and be able to elaborate on exactly what's affected, how it's affected, etc. It's nothing people should read about on a forum, follow a little template/tutorial and hope for the best. While it's a relatively simple enough concept to understand, you may accidentally load up the wrong amount of insulin and you can go into a diabetic coma. Wouldn't that be a shitty way to die?

In a nutshell it's my understanding that it forces glucose and nutrients into the muscle (as well as fat cells, so be careful), it increases glycogen formation, prevents muscle breakdown, it's highly anabolic due to it's osmotic actions in the body (when a supraphysiological level is reached - sugar won't do shit) and provides a small cascade of other anabolic triggers... but it won't particularly prefer storing nutrients in muscle vs fat. It'll go to both. I would only take it post workout because of fears for putting on fat. I would only recommend using it in the morning if you're also taking HGH and T3. For some people it can be more anabolic in fat than muscle, at least from what I've seen... either that, or the people I know who've tried it must have a very shitty diet.

Anyone, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I just got back from the gym and I'm pretty close to being brain dead. Oh yeah, and I know you're probably just curious about it. But if you're considering using insulin then the take home message is that it's very dicey business. Unless you're taking AAS, and other hormones/peptides like T3 and HGH then I would not recommend using insulin. You don't want to fuck up your insulin sensitivity and end up with TYPE II DIABEETUS.

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ASJChaotic
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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2008, 07:25:00 PM »

To pile drive nutrients into their muscles. Glucose and amino acids will only signal your pancreas to send out so much insulin. When you inject exogenous insulin you'll stimulate a heck of a lot more glycogen formation than you would by simply consuming a lot of sugar. There are lots of risks however.

It can be used in a simple enough fashion and safely enough, but I feel that anyone who uses insulin needs to have a vast knowledge base regarding this hormone. You should be able to sputter insulin information at the drop of a hat and be able to elaborate on exactly what's affected, how it's affected, etc. It's nothing people should read about on a forum, follow a little template/tutorial and hope for the best. While it's a relatively simple enough concept to understand, you may accidentally load up the wrong amount of insulin and you can go into a diabetic coma. Wouldn't that be a shitty way to die?

In a nutshell it's my understanding that it forces glucose and nutrients into the muscle (as well as fat cells, so be careful), it increases glycogen formation, prevents muscle breakdown, it's highly anabolic due to it's osmotic actions in the body (when a supraphysiological level is reached - sugar won't do shit) and provides a small cascade of other anabolic triggers... but it won't particularly prefer storing nutrients in muscle vs fat. It'll go to both. I would only take it post workout because of fears for putting on fat. I would only recommend using it in the morning if you're also taking HGH and T3. For some people it can be more anabolic in fat than muscle, at least from what I've seen... either that, or the people I know who've tried it must have a very shitty diet.

Anyone, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I just got back from the gym and I'm pretty close to being brain dead. Oh yeah, and I know you're probably just curious about it. But if you're considering using insulin then the take home message is that it's very dicey business. Unless you're taking AAS, and other hormones/peptides like T3 and HGH then I would not recommend using insulin. You don't want to fuck up your insulin sensitivity and end up with TYPE II DIABEETUS.


no way I'd ever use it lol, or any other kind of steroids or hormones, I'll stay natural forever
I was just wondering what everybody was talking about
how it thickens the skin, gives huge guts to bodybuilders, etc
ya, nice info thanks
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Van_Bilderass
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2008, 07:38:37 PM »

it's highly anabolic due to it's osmotic actions in the body

What exactly do you mean by this?
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« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2008, 07:57:29 PM »

no way I'd ever use it lol, or any other kind of steroids or hormones, I'll stay natural forever
I was just wondering what everybody was talking about
how it thickens the skin, gives huge guts to bodybuilders, etc
ya, nice info thanks
Do not believe the hype.

The godfather of insulin, the man who brought it into bodybuilding, the man who came up with the innovative 10-15g carb per 1 iu, Milos Sarcev, his abdomen is small, tigh,t and can probably still do a vaccum. Milos uses insulin twice a day and 5 times a week in his bulking protocal.  Smiley

Insulin completely halts protein breakdown. It is highly ANTI CATABOLIC. And it is mildy anabolic though other smaller mechanisms, as Dustin pointed out.

You use it because steroids are highly ANABOLIC, but only mildy anti catabolic.For greatest possible growth, you want to be highly anti catabolic and highly anabolic at the same time. And the combination of steroids and insulin does just that.

Insulin should not make you fat if your using it responsibly, keeeping your fat intake minimal, and your using it post workout only with either the type R or humalog (The two quickest acting forms).
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« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2008, 10:56:26 PM »

One journal article a few years back looked at a bodybuilder who experienced permanent brain damage due to using insulin incorrectly.

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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2008, 10:59:13 PM »

One journal article a few years back looked at a bodybuilder who experienced permanent brain damage due to using insulin incorrectly.


If you can find it, please post it.
Do you remember what happened exactly?
Never heard of anything other then hypoglycemia+becoming insulin resistant.
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« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2008, 01:18:40 AM »

Ahh, sort of ironic but my blood sugar dropped hardcore after my workout. Consumed my carbs, drank only half my protein shake and went to pick up some pho (Vietnamese noodles) and when I hit the restaurant I got dizzy and started shaking badly. Ate a chocolate bar on the way home, then had to stop at another gas station to get another. Was almost going to slam a cola but I realized I just needed the sugar from the bars to hit me otherwise I'd probably do more bad than good.

I can only imagine how scary it'd be if that was from injecting insulin. Sometimes you'll inject slin, consume the same amount of carbs you always do in proportion to the injection but still have a fucked up BSL.. I've heard some scary horror stories. I didn't inject slin, nor have I ever. But it was strange. Just getting over a cold but strong enough to hit the gym. Scary stuff. Felt like I was drunk... my younger bro almost had to drive me home but there was mad cops out tonight so I just drove slow on the back roads.

Shittiest part was that by the time I got home and made my pho, I wasn't even that hungry anymore. Only ate a little bit and fell asleep on the couch from the sugar crash. FUCK! Undecided
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« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2008, 01:48:41 AM »

One journal article a few years back looked at a bodybuilder who experienced permanent brain damage due to using insulin incorrectly.


Candidribble PIP  Cry
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« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2008, 02:57:11 AM »

One journal article a few years back looked at a bodybuilder who experienced permanent brain damage due to using insulin incorrectly.



He propably went to diabetic coma and that's what caused this brain damage. He must have simply taken too much Insulin or not enough carbs...
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« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2008, 03:03:47 AM »

Candidribble PIP  Cry
Grin

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« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2008, 03:15:29 AM »

no way I'd ever use it lol, or any other kind of steroids or hormones, I'll stay natural forever
I was just wondering what everybody was talking about
how it thickens the skin, gives huge guts to bodybuilders, etc
ya, nice info thanks

You'll never look like a steroid bodybuilder without steroids.  It's funny to see someone like you say that.  But once they train naturally for years on end and realize everyone around them is on drugs and they'll never look like that without em......... you either realize you've been training in vain or you'll cross over to the dark side.  That's the way it is nowadays.  Welcome to the 21st century.  Or if you're an African you can look at a weight and grow big muscles.  LOL. 
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« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2008, 03:20:32 AM »

Do not believe the hype.

The godfather of insulin, the man who brought it into bodybuilding, the man who came up with the innovative 10-15g carb per 1 iu, Milos Sarcev, his abdomen is small, tigh,t and can probably still do a vaccum. Milos uses insulin twice a day and 5 times a week in his bulking protocal.  Smiley

Insulin completely halts protein breakdown. It is highly ANTI CATABOLIC. And it is mildy anabolic though other smaller mechanisms, as Dustin pointed out.

You use it because steroids are highly ANABOLIC, but only mildy anti catabolic.For greatest possible growth, you want to be highly anti catabolic and highly anabolic at the same time. And the combination of steroids and insulin does just that.

Insulin should not make you fat if your using it responsibly, keeeping your fat intake minimal, and your using it post workout only with either the type R or humalog (The two quickest acting forms).

Bingo
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ASJChaotic
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« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2008, 09:37:22 AM »

You'll never look like a steroid bodybuilder without steroids.  It's funny to see someone like you say that.  But once they train naturally for years on end and realize everyone around them is on drugs and they'll never look like that without em......... you either realize you've been training in vain or you'll cross over to the dark side.  That's the way it is nowadays.  Welcome to the 21st century.  Or if you're an African you can look at a weight and grow big muscles.  LOL. 
where did I say I wanted to look like a steroid bodybuilder?
Hope that helps  Wink
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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2008, 06:10:57 PM »

He propably went to diabetic coma and that's what caused this brain damage. He must have simply taken too much Insulin or not enough carbs...

Luolamies, I'm sorry, but you have it wrong.  This is a commonly confused term in diabetes.

A Diabetic Coma is a coma that develops in severe and inadequately treated cases of diabetes mellitus. It is also called Kussmaul's coma and is associated with Diabetic Ketoacidosis.  You typically see this in Type I or other insulin using diabetics who for some reason are not taking enough insulin (by choice, by dietary indescretion, by illness, etc).

In the case of this bodybuilder, he did what I've been harping on for the last couple of years about nondiabetics taking insulin---he took too much and fried his brain because of lack of glucose to provide the fuel the brain needs to survive.  I know diabetics who have permenant brain damage from hypoglycemia.  There is no reason to think that a bodybuilder has any special means of protection against the effects of an insulin overdose.

These two papers are probably two of the most recent reports (at least two that I know of) of severe brain damage from hypoglycemia (and admittantly the focus of the second paper is loss of cognitive function,not brain damage---but brain damage is discussed):

Kim JH, Koh SB.  Extensive white matter injury in hypoglycemic coma.Neurology. 2007.  68(13):1074.
abstract not available

Warren RE, Frier BM.  Hypoglycaemia and cognitive function. Diabetes Obes Metab. 2005.  7(5):493-503.
 
Acute hypoglycaemia impairs cerebral function, and available data indicate that cognitive performance becomes impaired at a blood glucose level of 2.6-3.0 mmol/l in healthy subjects. Methodological problems limit comparisons between studies, but in general complex tasks are more sensitive to hypoglycaemia than simple tasks, and some cognitive abilities are completely abolished. The onset of hypoglycaemic cognitive dysfunction is immediate, but recovery may be considerably delayed. There is persuasive evidence of adaptation to hypoglycaemia, partly due to increased brain glucose uptake capacity, although other mechanisms may exist. Patients who are exposed to chronic or recurrent hypoglycaemia become remarkably tolerant to the state, but this is insufficient to prevent severe hypoglycaemia with neuroglycopenic decompensation, probably because symptomatic and counterregulatory responses adapt even more. During experimental hypoglycaemia, administration of non-glucose cerebral fuels preserves cognitive function. However, little progress has been made as yet towards protecting cognitive function during hypoglycaemia in clinical practice. The chronic effects of recurrent hypoglycaemia remain contentious. There are numerous case reports of hypoglycaemic brain damage and of cognitive deterioration attributed to repeated severe hypoglycaemia. The major prospective studies, including the Diabetes Control and Complications Trial, did not report cognitive declines in intensively treated patients, but had unrepresentative study populations and may have been too short to detect such effects. Structural and functional brain changes are not only associated with recurrent severe hypoglycaemia, but also with hyperglycaemia and early disease onset and may in part be due to hyperglycaemic microvascular disease. Children may be more prone to acute metabolic insults, and there is evidence of developmental disadvantage associated with hypoglycaemic episodes. 


 
I'm interested in this paper detailing a bodybuilder with brain damage after taking insulin.  If someone finds a link to that paper please post it.   Thank you. 
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« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2008, 08:50:38 PM »

It actually turned out to be a letter, anyway as requested:

"We have recently been involved in
the care of a 21 year old amateur
bodybuilder, who was admitted after taking
an excessive amount of insulin intrave­
nously. He developed severe brain damage
after prolonged neuroglycopenia. His case
brought several points to our attention.
Since anabolic steroids have been desig­
nated illegal in competitive sport, athletes
have been looking for alternative drugs to
help them put on muscle mass and burn off
fat. With little understanding of the poten­
tially serious side effects, they are now using
preparations that have no proved benefit in
sports training.
After reading several bodybuilding
magazines and scanning numerous internet
web sites we have realised that the extent of
misuse is considerable and growing...

...It is worrying
that a drug such as insulin is being
described as “the most powerful anabolic
hormone on the planet”3 to a readership
that can be obsessive and often has a poor
body image.4"



Elkin SL, Brady S, Williams JP. Bodybuilders find it easy to obtain insulin to help them in training.
BMJ 1997;314:1280
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=212660:5
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« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2008, 10:09:06 PM »

But if you're considering using insulin then the take home message is that it's very dicey business. Unless you're taking AAS, and other hormones/peptides like T3 and HGH then I would not recommend using insulin. You don't want to fuck up your insulin sensitivity and end up with TYPE II DIABEETUS.

I don't agree with using insulin to mimick the body's response because you may just end up inducing Type 2 or death if you don't get sugars fast enough.

You really have to ask yourself if the risk/reward favors it......

Honestly, unless your an IFBB pro who isn't worried about longterm health anyway, I don't see why you'd do it.


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« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2008, 10:13:50 PM »

I don't agree with using insulin to mimick the body's response because you may just end up inducing Type 2 or death if you don't get sugars fast enough.

You really have to ask yourself if the risk/reward favors it......

Honestly, unless your an IFBB pro who isn't worried about longterm health anyway, I don't see why you'd do it.


DIV

Yeah. Like I said, the dosing protocol may sound simple enough but I believe people should be EXPERTS on the subject before even considering it. That's the only challenge with extremely accessible communication mediums. They're so faceless and accessible to anyone. The wrong person can skim over a thread like this, decide to walk into a pharmacy because he heard he should try taking xx ius of slin post workout and xx amount of carbs per iu, and think he'll be all good as long as he's got a chocolate bar or pack of glucose tabs.

What happens when someone accidentally mixes up the lines and ticks on a slin pin though?? I recall some bonehead pinning like 40-70ius of slin accidentally!!!! And it was on this forum. I don't know if it was a troll or not, but Jesus that is scary. Could have slipped into a coma and got brain damage, or DIED. Such a simple blunder can result in death. At least with gear, if someone bombed back some test they'd just get off easy and develop a set of bitch titties before anything hazardous happened. With slin, you can die. Lips sealed
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« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2008, 10:21:08 PM »

Yeah. Like I said, the dosing protocol may sound simple enough but I believe people should be EXPERTS on the subject before even considering it. That's the only challenge with extremely accessible communication mediums. They're so faceless and accessible to anyone. The wrong person can skim over a thread like this, decide to walk into a pharmacy because he heard he should try taking xx ius of slin post workout and xx amount of carbs per iu, and think he'll be all good as long as he's got a chocolate bar or pack of glucose tabs.

What happens when someone accidentally mixes up the lines and ticks on a slin pin though?? I recall some bonehead pinning like 40-70ius of slin accidentally!!!! And it was on this forum. I don't know if it was a troll or not, but Jesus that is scary. Could have slipped into a coma and got brain damage, or DIED. Such a simple blunder can result in death. At least with gear, if someone bombed back some test they'd just get off easy and develop a set of bitch titties before anything hazardous happened. With slin, you can die. Lips sealed


You have to realize the audience we have here and on Bodybuilding forums in general.

The age range and level of life experience tends to favor impulsive, irrational decision-making which doesn't mix well with drugs like Insulin.

I'd rationalize that genetic predisposition and bodytype play a huge role in what the optimal dosage would be for anabolic insulin use.

Still, though, unless you had a doctor there to monitor this and give his own observations/recommendations......I don't see it.


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« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2008, 10:30:01 PM »

According to Milos you are probably more likely to become insulin resistant and/or diabetic from consuming 100g simple carbs post workout on a daily basis WITHOUT exogenous insulin than you are by using insulin. by using exogenous insulin your releaving all that stress of the pancrease, which in a normal situation would have to release a HUGE (totally inhuman amount) amount of insulin in response to all that simple carbohydrate.

It is dangerous and shouldnt be taken lightly...BUT..consider the fact that by using a moderate amunt of insulin along with low dose AAS you can achieve the same kind of growth, or even better growth, as you would from mega dosing anabolics alone.

Probably a better idea to combine moderate amounts of slin and AAS than to mega dose AAS.
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« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2008, 10:51:45 PM »

According to Milos you are probably more likely to become insulin resistant and/or diabetic from consuming 100g simple carbs post workout on a daily basis WITHOUT exogenous insulin than you are by using insulin. by using exogenous insulin your releaving all that stress of the pancrease, which in a normal situation would have to release a HUGE (totally inhuman amount) amount of insulin in response to all that simple carbohydrate.


It is dangerous and shouldnt be taken lightly...BUT..consider the fact that by using a moderate amunt of insulin along with low dose AAS you can achieve the same kind of growth, or even better growth, as you would from mega dosing anabolics alone.

Probably a better idea to combine moderate amounts of slin and AAS than to mega dose AAS.


The it concerns me that you have with all of the "insulin gurus" in that insulin is only half of a very complex hormonal group with the ultimate goal of maintaining blood glucose levels within the body.  The focus is insulin, insulin, insulin because the hormone does have anabolic properties--or probably its better said it is a hormone that when present in physioligic levels will facilitate the development of an anabolic environment. 

The problem is no one talks about the negative effects (this includes catabolic effects) that could come about from the counter regulatory hormones the body will release in response to excessive insulin or hypoglycemia---or worse yet what happens when someone overdoses.  Its nothing to be taken lightly in any way. 


You want to know what I think the best approach is?  Pay attention to your body, eat right, get into the gym and bust your ass, then get out and give your body a chance to recover.    Every person on this planet will see gains if they do those 4 simple things.    All of the drugs in the world won't make even a regional champion if a person is eating for shit, isn't training, and isn't giving their body a chance to recover or they aren't listening to their body when its telling them it needs a break or can push a bit harder.   I'm willing to say 95% of the people I see in any of the gyms I routinely go through do not do those 4 basic things.   
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« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2008, 11:05:51 PM »

According to Milos you are probably more likely to become insulin resistant and/or diabetic from consuming 100g simple carbs post workout on a daily basis WITHOUT exogenous insulin than you are by using insulin. by using exogenous insulin your releaving all that stress of the pancrease, which in a normal situation would have to release a HUGE (totally inhuman amount) amount of insulin in response to all that simple carbohydrate.

It is dangerous and shouldnt be taken lightly...BUT..consider the fact that by using a moderate amunt of insulin along with low dose AAS you can achieve the same kind of growth, or even better growth, as you would from mega dosing anabolics alone.

Probably a better idea to combine moderate amounts of slin and AAS than to mega dose AAS.

Milos Sarcev?

Eh........nothing personal but I'll take my chances with my own personal experiences over what Milos says.

I think Milos needs to focus on not getting his ass arrested for importing fake GH kits......   Grin



The it concerns me that you have with all of the "insulin gurus" in that insulin is only half of a very complex hormonal group with the ultimate goal of maintaining blood glucose levels within the body.  The focus is insulin, insulin, insulin because the hormone does have anabolic properties--or probably its better said it is a hormone that when present in physioligic levels will facilitate the development of an anabolic environment. 

The problem is no one talks about the negative effects (this includes catabolic effects) that could come about from the counter regulatory hormones the body will release in response to excessive insulin or hypoglycemia---or worse yet what happens when someone overdoses.  Its nothing to be taken lightly in any way. 


You want to know what I think the best approach is?  Pay attention to your body, eat right, get into the gym and bust your ass, then get out and give your body a chance to recover.    Every person on this planet will see gains if they do those 4 simple things.    All of the drugs in the world won't make even a regional champion if a person is eating for shit, isn't training, and isn't giving their body a chance to recover or they aren't listening to their body when its telling them it needs a break or can push a bit harder.   I'm willing to say 95% of the people I see in any of the gyms I routinely go through do not do those 4 basic things.   


I agree that it's very basic in terms of the body's regulatory response to training and that most people over-analyze it to death.

We're not re-inventing the wheel and there's no amount of AAS that will make up for poor diet, poor training etc.

You can only trick your body for so long before it tries to reach homeostasis again........


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« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2008, 11:35:53 PM »

Milos Sarcev?

Eh........nothing personal but I'll take my chances with my own personal experiences over what Milos says.

I think Milos needs to focus on not getting his ass arrested for importing fake GH kits......   Grin



Roll Eyes You know more than Milos Sarcev?

Come on now, thats just ridiculous.
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« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2008, 11:40:27 PM »


The it concerns me that you have with all of the "insulin gurus" in that insulin is only half of a very complex hormonal group with the ultimate goal of maintaining blood glucose levels within the body.  The focus is insulin, insulin, insulin because the hormone does have anabolic properties--or probably its better said it is a hormone that when present in physioligic levels will facilitate the development of an anabolic environment. 

The problem is no one talks about the negative effects (this includes catabolic effects) that could come about from the counter regulatory hormones the body will release in response to excessive insulin or hypoglycemia---or worse yet what happens when someone overdoses.  Its nothing to be taken lightly in any way. 


You want to know what I think the best approach is?  Pay attention to your body, eat right, get into the gym and bust your ass, then get out and give your body a chance to recover.    Every person on this planet will see gains if they do those 4 simple things.    All of the drugs in the world won't make even a regional champion if a person is eating for shit, isn't training, and isn't giving their body a chance to recover or they aren't listening to their body when its telling them it needs a break or can push a bit harder.   I'm willing to say 95% of the people I see in any of the gyms I routinely go through do not do those 4 basic things.   

MIlos sarcev is the ONLY "insulin guru" in bodybuilding. Everyone else was either taught by Milos, or got second hand info from Milos. Everyone in his family besides him are/were doctors, and he spent many many years in the late 80's early 90's doing his own research on insulin. He came up with the 10g carb per iu measurement, no on in the academic community did. He experimented and consulted with doctors and professionals and looked at studies at tests and the science and came up with an insulin protocol all on his own. 


I agree with you about hard training, diet , and rest. But that only goes so far. I think absolutely no one has any business using any hormones at all unless there diet training and lifestyle is 100% on point.  But for a dedicated athlete who wants more than the human body has to offer, its fair game and a personal choice.
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« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2008, 01:29:17 AM »

Roll Eyes You know more than Milos Sarcev?

Come on now, thats just ridiculous.

Let's say I trust my instincts over those of Milos Sarcev.

I didn't get arrested for trying to import fake GH kits.

The guy is decent with dieting for competitors but that's as far as I'm going with the cred.

Let's say he isn't the smartest bodybuilder out there.......which is an oxymoron in itself, eh "tbombz"?   Grin



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