Spaying female dogs?

[MuscleMcMannus]

Dude I posted references.  Here they are again.........

http://www2.dcn.org/orgs/ddtc/sfiles/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf%20

Scroll down to where it says "references".  And I'll be honest it's VERY hard finding any veterinary research online regarding research done on pyometra one way or the other.  All that says to me is if the facts and statistics are so solid it would be a lot easier finding true facts to back up the establishment's necessity of spayiing and neutering to prevent unwanted health effects.  I can't believe there are still vets pushing to have dogs spayed and neutered before one year.  That's absolutely ridiculous.  There is no need for that and the case against it is VERY strong. 

[~weed~]

I agree with you 100% on the early altering.  A person I know who also has a Dane had 2 vets push for her to spay her at 5 months of age.  Surprisingly to me one of the vets was the vet I use and he never was pushy with me getting Addie spayed and she was 4 before I did it, and Tad my Chi was about 9 months and he didn't push me to do him earlier either.  I think because I am very definite in my opinions he didn't bother to try and push it knowing that I would do it if and when I decided to.  It does disappoint me to find out what he really believes as far as the age to alter and that he pushed spaying on this other person.  I thought he was more aware of the current evidence that is available and certainly would not think 5months was the age for a giant breed. 

Now I have known people who have had bitches get pyometra that then had to have surgery.  It does happen, and recently I heard of a bitch who died but that blame should be on the vet that put off the surgery.  It is treatable (by spaying) but then you have the cost of surgery and aftercare. 

There are risks to altering or not altering.  If a responsible person chooses not to alter I have no problem with it and believe it is a personal choice.  I do think people are not given all the information and sometimes misinformation in regards to altering and are pushed to alter too early. 

Now one thing to toss out there, in the wild I don't believe the females in the pack come into heat 2 times a year like most domesticated dogs do.  I think only the alpha female does.  That would mean our female dogs bodies are subjected to a stress that wild bitches are not.  Something to consider when saying it is natural to leave them intact, we have altered that with our domestication.  I don't have any references on hand that prove this as a fact, and frankly I am not going to look for them any time soon, but I recall at one point I did have information regarding that. 

And dogs don't need vegetables, they are carnivores 

[MuscleMcMannus]

Humans don't NEED vegetables either.  We could survive soley off dairy products and meat as many indigenous peoples across the world have such as the Masai in Africa. 

And I don't know about wild dogs but my female Boxer only comes into heat once a year.  It used to be in December for the first 3 years but now it's every October for the last two.  And like you said there are benefits to spaying a female dog.  But just as in human medicine doctors never divulge both sides of the issue and make the consumer more informed  and responsible.  This is my biggest beef with Vets.  Whether they do it to make money, to keep populations in check whatever, they do it.  And it's deceitful in my opinion.  It's no different than the drug companies pushing for mandatory vaccination of kids. 

[~weed~]

My dogs get no vegetables or grains.  When I first raw fed I did include a meal or two weekly of pulverized leafy greens but then I realized that was just a waste of my time and money and strictly feed prey model.

My Addie had twice a year heats, but like I said in the wild I believe unless she was the alpha bitch she might not even come into heat at all.  Two is the norm for most dogs, although it can be less or even more.

Vaccinations?  Don't even get me started on that, people will start to believe that you are a gimmick of mine.   

 There is no excuse for people not to educate themselves and make their own INFORMED decisions. Unfortunately even people who know better will still make dumb ass decisions.  The person I mentioned who was pushed to spay her Dane at 5months did it at 8 even though her contract for the dog gave her til 11 months to do it.  She is very aware of the possible problems of early altering a giant breed yet she did it anyways.  What kills me with her is that she has since consulted with a animal sports specialist about how she wants to train and work the dog.  She will spend all that money for that yet she might have set the dog up for joint problems because she spayed her early and couldn't even wait til 11 months that her contract gave her.  Danes are known to grow taller and not fill out when altered early and that puts them more at risk for joint problems as well as osteosarcoma which is common in Danes. I still can't figure out what the hell she was thinking.  

[Vet]

I agree with you 100% on the early altering.  A person I know who also has a Dane had 2 vets push for her to spay her at 5 months of age.  Surprisingly to me one of the vets was the vet I use and he never was pushy with me getting Addie spayed and she was 4 before I did it, and Tad my Chi was about 9 months and he didn't push me to do him earlier either.  I think because I am very definite in my opinions he didn't bother to try and push it knowing that I would do it if and when I decided to.  It does disappoint me to find out what he really believes as far as the age to alter and that he pushed spaying on this other person.  I thought he was more aware of the current evidence that is available and certainly would not think 5months was the age for a giant breed. 

  I do agree with the idea that different breeds may need to be spayed at different times.   One thing you are overlooking is the fact that the size of the dog is somethign that HAS to be considered.   Spaying a 1 lb toy poodle isn't fun at all because everything is microsized.  The same holds true for Giant breeds.   At some point, depending on the equipmetn of the veterinary hospital, you move away from "standardized" dog and cat spay packs into "large animal" instruments with abdominal exploratory surgeries (ie Spays) in giant breed dogs.   I've tried to spay a st. bernard on a fixed height table.  The surgery took twice to three times as long (just over an hour and a half vs my usual time of 30-45 minutes) because I simply couldn't see into the dogs body cavity and I had to keep stepping away from the surgery to relieve my own back spasms.   

Its a bit of a selfish route, but I know for a fact that there are veterinarians out there who flat out recommend doing each and every say so the dog is between 20 and 45 lbs for their own physical reasons.    Some of them will tell owners (my old boss told owners he didn't like doing dogs over 65 lbs because he had had a bad back injury and picking up the heavier dogs was very difficult for him).   

Sure there are lift tables and what not, but lets face the economics of a veterinary practice.  A $6000 lift table for 8 -10 surgeries a year doesnt' make much sense.   

I'm also not advocating what these veterinarians are doing is right, I'm just saying its something to think about.   

Now I have known people who have had bitches get pyometra that then had to have surgery.  It does happen, and recently I heard of a bitch who died but that blame should be on the vet that put off the surgery.  It is treatable (by spaying) but then you have the cost of surgery and aftercare. 

My experiences with pyometra as a veterinarian have not been good.  If the pyo is open--meaning the cervix is open and the pus from the uterus is draining out, the dogs have a much better chance then if they have a closed pyo.   Closed pyos are NOT a simple spay surgery.  I've done a couple of them that honestly, I'll be quite happy to never do anything remotely close to that type of surgery ever again (the uterus popped in one boxer right as we were pulling it out, spraying me, the primary surgeon, the tech, the dog, her body cavity, and the curtains in the operating room with nice nasty fetid dog uterus goo.   It was all I could do to keep from puking in my surgical mask, and then we had to work frantically to flush the abdomen back out).    Its a critical situation that literally scares the hell out of some veterinarians because of the percieved risk of death to the dog.   

There are risks to altering or not altering.  If a responsible person chooses not to alter I have no problem with it and believe it is a personal choice.  I do think people are not given all the information and sometimes misinformation in regards to altering and are pushed to alter too early.  

I don't disagree with this.  I think its an argument both sides are tightly mired in.  You absolutely HAVE to consider both sides of the argument.   Generally both sides won't bother to do that. 

Now one thing to toss out there, in the wild I don't believe the females in the pack come into heat 2 times a year like most domesticated dogs do.  I think only the alpha female does.  That would mean our female dogs bodies are subjected to a stress that wild bitches are not.  Something to consider when saying it is natural to leave them intact, we have altered that with our domestication.  I don't have any references on hand that prove this as a fact, and frankly I am not going to look for them any time soon, but I recall at one point I did have information regarding that. 

Youve got to look at wolves only to really be accurate.  Wolves, Canis lupus, generally ony breed with the dominate male and female.  Occasionally here is breding of subordinates, but not commonly.   I honestly have to look up themechanisms involved with this, I can't remember right now if its a silent heat, no heat,  or exactly what happens with the subordinates.   

The thing is anyway you look at it, wolves breed once per year in the winter.   The dominate female breeds virtually every heat cycle.    Domestic dogs don't.   in my mind that significantly increases the risk of complications from not breeding.   

[~weed~]

 Its a bit of a selfish route, but I know for a fact that there are veterinarians out there who flat out recommend doing each and every say so the dog is between 20 and 45 lbs for their own physical reasons.    Some of them will tell owners (my old boss told owners he didn't like doing dogs over 65 lbs because he had had a bad back injury and picking up the heavier dogs was very difficult for him).   

  Emmett was 27#'s at 8 weeks of age.  By six months he was 100#.  He would have had to been neutered at around 4 months!   The vet who altered him at 2 years would not do Addie because Emmett was tough and she didn't have the manpower to make it safe to do giant dogs.  I got 20#'s off Addie before her spay to make it easier on the vet and safer.  I can see that it is difficult and dangerous for both the dog and the vet to be moving that kind of weight around and positioning for surgery.  But with giant breeds that comes with it. They don't stay small for very long!  I don't think a vet should push the owner to alter a giant/large breed early for personal reasons, I would rather they directed them to another vet who could do it at a more breed appropriate age.

[Vet]

  Emmett was 27#'s at 8 weeks of age.  By six months he was 100#.  He would have had to been neutered at around 4 months!   The vet who altered him at 2 years would not do Addie because Emmett was tough and she didn't have the manpower to make it safe to do giant dogs.  I got 20#'s off Addie before her spay to make it easier on the vet and safer.  I can see that it is difficult and dangerous for both the dog and the vet to be moving that kind of weight around and positioning for surgery.  But with giant breeds that comes with it. They don't stay small for very long!  I don't think a vet should push the owner to alter a giant/large breed early for personal reasons, I would rather they directed them to another vet who could do it at a more breed appropriate age.

Please, don't misinterpret what I posted.  I'm not advocating it, I'm just telling you I know it happens.   Unfortunately the majority of the vets I can think of doing this also happen to be women.   Vet schools have classes made of 85% or more female now days.  It may become a bigger issue in the future.   


Again, its justsomething to think about.   I'm not trying to choose sides.    I will say, dealing with the size of an adult large breed dog is not always easy on an operating table.   To a degree, I do think that needs to be considered for an elective surgery like a spay.  You want to minimize anesthesia/surgical risk as much as within reason