Do pros use volume training to avoid injury?

[Tapeworm]

Since most AAS inhibit collagen synthesis and there's a risk of muscle strength outpacing tendon strength, do pros and other users choose volume to avoid injury and NOT because it leads to superior growth?

The view that heavy, low rep, strength oriented training produces better growth for non steroid users is winning out at about 3:1 over higher rep pump training, by my estimate.  So for FP, Goudy, and snx, Bill Star, etc, I'll give the 5x5 progression another shot.

A lot of users prefer the 8-15 rep range while nattys like a lower rep, strength range.  Is it injury avoidance or something else?  Why the different preference between users and non users?

[tbombz]

could be but in an AAS user volume training results in more growth anyways.

[Master Blaster]

I've always been weak as fuck, only way I could get any size was to beat the shit out of my muscles with lots of sets, drop sets, etc.

[Tapeworm]

could be but in an AAS user volume training results in more growth anyways.

Wouldn't juice just enhance what happens naturally tho?  You'd think if heavy was best natty, it'd be best juiced.  Or if volume is best juiced, it'd still be best natty.

Doesn't make any sense to me that at 100mg/wk you should be training heavy, but go to 500mg/wk and you should do volume.  Where's the cutoff point?  180?  220?  Know what I mean?

[tbombz]

Wouldn't juice just enhance what happens naturally tho?  You'd think if heavy was best natty, it'd be best juiced.  Or if volume is best juiced, it'd still be best natty.

Doesn't make any sense to me that at 100mg/wk you should be training heavy, but go to 500mg/wk and you should do volume.  Where's the cutoff point?  180?  220?  Know what I mean?

hormone levels naturally are dependant on your lifting. hormones are more important than what your stimulating in the muscle cell. the reason hevay lifting low volume HIT works best for natural is because its best at stimulating testosterone production. not because its best at stimulating hypertrophy in the muscle. the best kind of workout routine for stimulating hypertrophy in the muscle is high volume training. basically just getting the biggest pump you can. acheiving great sarcosplasmic volume and activating as many satellite cells as possible and also creating as many micro tears as possible.  no need to worry about testosterone production with AAS just worry about growth signaling at the cellular level.

[Emmortal]

could be but in an AAS user volume training results in more growth anyways.

Ehhhr not 100% true.  Training styles such as DC, Mentzers Heavy Duty, and Dorians Blood 'n Guts type training were all geared around low sets with heavy weight for optimal growth, all catered to heavy AAS users.

It's really going to come down to what your body responds to best and AAS will enhance that.  Some guys respond best to higher volume while others the above styles, AAS will only compliment that.

[Tapeworm]

I've always been weak as fuck, only way I could get any size was to beat the shit out of my muscles with lots of sets, drop sets, etc.

You mean lots of heavy sets (over 85% of your 1RM)?  Or lots of pump sets nearer 12+ reps?

I'm weak too.  I wish I could do some of the lifts on here that get laughed at.  I think a lot has to do with tendon insertions and biomechanical advantage.  That pic of Suleman standing next to Mentzer is the perfect example.

[tbombz]

Ehhhr not 100% true.  Training styles such as DC, Mentzers Heavy Duty, and Dorians Blood 'n Guts type training were all geared around low sets with heavy weight for optimal growth, all catered to heavy AAS users.

It's really going to come down to what your body responds to best and AAS will enhance that.  Some guys respond best to higher volume while others the above styles, AAS will only compliment that.

check out the above post... not really scientific fact YET but its my personal theory and it seems to hold true for most everyone ive ever viewed or witnessed or heard of..

[pumpster]

The view that heavy, low rep, strength oriented training produces better growth for non steroid users is winning out at about 3:1 over higher rep pump training, by my estimate.  So for FP, Goudy, and snx, Bill Star, etc, I'll give the 5x5 progression another shot.

A lot of users prefer the 8-15 rep range while nattys like a lower rep, strength range.  Is it injury avoidance or something else?  Why the different preference between users and non users?

Coleman for one uses the higher rep range, most top guys do. I think both because it reduces the likelihood of injury and is best for growth. Whatever the concensus is here, i'll never buy heavy low rep training for either growth or injury avoidance.

[pumpster]

The view that heavy, low rep, strength oriented training produces better growth for non steroid users is winning out at about 3:1 over higher rep pump training, by my estimate.  So for FP, Goudy, and snx, Bill Star, etc, I'll give the 5x5 progression another shot.

A lot of users prefer the 8-15 rep range while nattys like a lower rep, strength range.  Is it injury avoidance or something else?  Why the different preference between users and non users?

Coleman for one uses the higher rep range, most top guys stay at least in the moderate range, not lower. Mel Anthony said recently in an article he regrets having gone so heavy earlier when he didn't know better. It's done for multiple reasons-higher growth potential, easier on the joints most definitely, better mind-muscle connections.

[Fatpanda]

the best kind of workout routine for stimulating hypertrophy in the muscle is high volume training. basically just getting the biggest pump you can. acheiving great sarcosplasmic volume and activating as many satellite cells as possible and also creating as many micro tears as possible.  no need to worry about testosterone production with AAS just worry about growth signaling at the cellular level.

any studies to back up these claims?

i guarentee that 4 sets of 5 reps will do more for strength and mass than 10 sets of 10 - gear or not.

there is a cut off point where too much volume is counter productive - seems to be anything after 4 sets per muscle group in the literature. so candy if you are doing more that your wasting time and energy.

so coleman used higher reps, he still tore a lat and fvcked his joints  so have many other volume and hit trainers - injuries do not come from rep numbers, but a variety of variables.

tapeworm - i got injured ( tore rotators) doing 4-6 reps a set, however i was not warming up properly. now i do and have had no problems  strength goes up very workout and mass is certainly up too.

give it a try for 2 months, make sure you warm up properly and you will be impressed.

i would bet you will be impressed after 2 weeks if nutrition is good.

good luck, keep us informed. 

[tbombz]

any studies to back up these claims?

i guarentee that 4 sets of 5 reps will do more for strength and mass than 10 sets of 10 - gear or not.

there is a cut off point where too much volume is counter productive - seems to be anything after 4 sets per muscle group in the literature. so candy if you are doing more that your wasting time and energy.

nope sorry bud 4 sets 5 reps wouldnt do anywhere near the growth , at least not for me, that high volume.. 20-30 sets does do.  that cut off point is for naturals and it delas with hormones.. like i say hormones are under control with AAS... and anyways they didnt do those studies that the literature are based off of on bodybuilders , well trained abodybuilders, on AAS.... and other things.

you like milos you should read some milos and read on giant sets you think giant sets = heavy lifting ? no way no how giant sets is high volume trying to get the burn trying to get the pump trying to deplete glycogen and i guarantee ANY AAS user that isnt doing gaint set type training (high volume type of trining mulitple exercises) that switches to that kind of training will see enormous change of pace in their gains..

[QuakerOats]

I've always been weak as fuck, only way I could get any size was to beat the shit out of my muscles with lots of sets, drop sets, etc.

what do you think of Luscious Lopez, big stud?

[Fatpanda]

nope sorry bud 4 sets 5 reps wouldnt do anywhere near the growth , at least not for me, that high volume.. 20-30 sets does do.  that cut off point is for naturals and it delas with hormones.. like i say hormones are under control with AAS... and anyways they didnt do those studies that the literature are based off of on bodybuilders , well trained abodybuilders, on AAS.... and other things.

you like milos you should read some milos and read on giant sets you think giant sets = heavy lifting ? no way no how giant sets is high volume trying to get the burn trying to get the pump trying to deplete glycogen and i guarantee ANY AAS user that isnt doing gaint set type training (high volume type of trining mulitple exercises) that switches to that kind of training will see enormous change of pace in their gains..

i've read milos's theory on giant sets, i just don't agree with them - look at dennis james, he worked with milos for years but never took on milos giant set idea, he stuck with his 6-8 reps - 4 sets an excercise, and is clearly the biggest/ most massive bodybuilder to work with milos.

i am not against the idea of engourging the muscle with blood/nutrients ( in fact i agree with this practice). however 1 pump set after the heavier sets would do that just fine - no need for the 50 sets of 5lb pink dumbells IMO.

[Tapeworm]

hormone levels naturally are dependant on your lifting....the reason hevay lifting low volume HIT works best for natural is because its best at stimulating testosterone production.

This is an oft quoted fact on bodybuilding boards, but has it ever been demonstrated that lifting heavy weight stimulates greater T production?

tapeworm - i got injured ( tore rotators) doing 4-6 reps a set, however i was not warming up properly. now i do and have had no problems  strength goes up very workout and mass is certainly up too.

give it a try for 2 months, make sure you warm up properly and you will be impressed.

i would bet you will be impressed after 2 weeks if nutrition is good.

good luck, keep us informed. 

I've done 5x5 in the fairly recent past.  I did see some growth from it, although nothing amazing.  The first month was good, then it slowed.  Eventually I quit because I stalled - about 10 weeks overall I think.  And I mean stalled - like 4 weeks of almost zero progress.  It was like banging my head against a wall.

My nutrition is a strong point from a bodybuilding and health perspective.  I don't eat like a powerlifter because I don't want to look like one, but I'm not afraid of smoothing out a little as long as it's not excessive.  I'm not a complete ab shooting twink, but I don't like getting over 15% either.  I figure you have the muscle that you have, and padding out with flab to look big in clothes isn't where it's at.

At any rate, I've done several weeks of higher rep training and seen progress in some area and none in others.  The bottom line is that I'm weak and want my lifts UP, and at only a little over 180 I need mass bad, so I'm going to take another swing at 5x5.  I'll be back for advice when I stall again.   

[Master Blaster]

You mean lots of heavy sets (over 85% of your 1RM)?  Or lots of pump sets nearer 12+ reps?

I'm weak too.  I wish I could do some of the lifts on here that get laughed at.  I think a lot has to do with tendon insertions and biomechanical advantage.  That pic of Suleman standing next to Mentzer is the perfect example.

Lots of "low" weight sets for about 10 reps. Tons of supersets, and drop sets.

I know it's just an excuse but always blame my long monkey arms. 

I could Deadlift decent weight but that was about it.

[Master Blaster]

what do you think of Luscious Lopez, big stud?

Damn I wanted to google that shit, but I'm at work. Is that the chick you showed before? 

[Chick]

Since most AAS inhibit collagen synthesis and there's a risk of muscle strength outpacing tendon strength, do pros and other users choose volume to avoid injury and NOT because it leads to superior growth?

The view that heavy, low rep, strength oriented training produces better growth for non steroid users is winning out at about 3:1 over higher rep pump training, by my estimate.  So for FP, Goudy, and snx, Bill Star, etc, I'll give the 5x5 progression another shot.

A lot of users prefer the 8-15 rep range while nattys like a lower rep, strength range.  Is it injury avoidance or something else?  Why the different preference between users and non users?

It has less to do with users vs non users and everything to do with Having a base vs just starting out and building one...

Whether or not you're using AAS is irrelevant

[QuakerOats]

Damn I wanted to google that shit, but I'm at work. Is that the chick you showed before? 

nah she's another one, i'll PM you a link.

[Tapeworm]

Lots of "low" weight sets for about 10 reps. Tons of supersets, and drop sets.

I know it's just an excuse but always blame my long monkey arms. 

I could Deadlift decent weight but that was about it.

Yup.  That's my best lift too by far.  Almost 2x my squat.  Totally out of balance.  

[ASJChaotic]

It has less to do with users vs non users and everything to do with Having a base vs just starting out and building one...

Whether or not you're using AAS is irrelevant

so Bob, do you suggest basic heavy poundage if a person doesn't have a base like Jay Cutler?

[Tapeworm]

It has less to do with users vs non users and everything to do with Having a base vs just starting out and building one...

Whether or not you're using AAS is irrelevant

AXA beat me to it, but yes, I'd say I'm still building a base.  Would you recommend lower rep ranges then and get the strength up?

[Chick]

so Bob, do you suggest basic heavy poundage if a person doesn't have a base like Jay Cutler?

I suggest good basic lifts, and  heavy weights to build a base...AND higher reps.

 People seem to think it's one or the other...

The answer...like all things in life, is "In the middle"

[Master Blaster]

Yup.  That's my best lift too by far.  Almost 2x my squat.  Totally out of balance.  

I feel ya man, my arm span is longer than my height. I always look at freaks like Lee Preist and it looks like their arms are so short they can't even get change out of their pockets.  

[Fatpanda]

I suggest good basic lifts, and  heavy weights to build a base...AND higher reps.

 People seem to think it's one or the other...

The answer...like all things in life, is "In the middle"

so chick do you believe all these studies that show low reps are better for stength and hypertrophy are only valid for naturals? or do you feel that the use of steroids negates these findings, and higher reps are better?