Hormones=AMAZING !

[wavelength]

all roid rage

[Fatpanda]

how does this explain this little thing called powerlifting?
the guys are getting lots of food obviously
most are obese
not that jacked 
but very strong

clearly there is a cut off point for calories.

i'm not sure if bm in that study includes the ffm amount or is seperate. - i need the full study.

if its included then that study actually shows that 2000 cals extra a day produces minimum fat gain, but good muscle gain.

if its not included then the fat gain and muscle gain were around equal.

[Fatpanda]

ummmmmm my post he quopted was about a cuttting diet

two diets, both of eauql calories, one has higher % protein than the other, the higher % protein diet willl result in the leaner more muscular body... because when cuttting protein increases thermogensis and decreases catabolism..

in absence of glucose, fats are burned, in absence of dietary fat body fat is burned. why not eat NOTHING? you lose muscel. so you eat some protein to avoid muscle loss. thats a cutting diet. of course there are soem other things to take consideration that effects glycogen and t3 production and test production.. but getting into that now would take forever

I AGREE

Dietary protein and exercise have additive effects on body composition during weight loss in adult women.Layman DK, Evans E, Baum JI, Seyler J, Erickson DJ, Boileau RA.
Department of Food Science and Human Nutrition, University of Illnois, Urbana, 61801, USA. dlayman@uiuc.edu

This study examined the interaction of 2 diets (high protein, reduced carbohydrates vs. low protein, high carbohydrates) with exercise on body composition and blood lipids in women (n = 48, approximately 46 y old, BMI = 33 kg/m(2)) during weight loss. The study was a 4-mo weight loss trial using a 2 x 2 block design (Diet x Exercise). Diets were equal in total energy (7.1 MJ/d) and lipids ( approximately 30% energy intake) but differed in protein content and the ratio of carbohydrate:protein at 1.6 g/(kg . d) and <1.5 (PRO group) vs. 0.8 g/(kg . d) and >3.5 (CHO group), respectively. Exercise comparisons were lifestyle activity (control) vs. a supervised exercise program (EX: 5 d/wk walking and 2 d/wk resistance training). Subjects in the PRO and PRO + EX groups lost more total weight and fat mass and tended to lose less lean mass (P = 0.10) than the CHO and CHO + EX groups. Exercise increased loss of body fat and preserved lean mass. The combined effects of diet and exercise were additive for improving body composition. Serum lipid profiles improved in all groups, but changes varied among diet treatments. Subjects in the CHO groups had larger reductions in total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol, whereas subjects in the PRO groups had greater reductions in triacylglycerol and maintained higher concentrations of HDL cholesterol. This study demonstrated that a diet with higher protein and reduced carbohydrates combined with exercise additively improved body composition during weight loss, whereas the effects on blood lipids differed between diet treatments.

[io856]

Excellent find fatpanda

[wavelength]

I AGREE

Dietary protein and exercise have additive effects on body composition during weight loss in adult women.Layman DK, Evans E, Baum JI, Seyler J, Erickson DJ, Boileau RA.
Department of Food Science and Human Nutrition, University of Illnois, Urbana, 61801, USA. dlayman@uiuc.edu

This study examined the interaction of 2 diets (high protein, reduced carbohydrates vs. low protein, high carbohydrates) with exercise on body composition and blood lipids in women (n = 48, approximately 46 y old, BMI = 33 kg/m(2)) during weight loss. The study was a 4-mo weight loss trial using a 2 x 2 block design (Diet x Exercise). Diets were equal in total energy (7.1 MJ/d) and lipids ( approximately 30% energy intake) but differed in protein content and the ratio of carbohydrate:protein at 1.6 g/(kg . d) and <1.5 (PRO group) vs. 0.8 g/(kg . d) and >3.5 (CHO group), respectively. Exercise comparisons were lifestyle activity (control) vs. a supervised exercise program (EX: 5 d/wk walking and 2 d/wk resistance training). Subjects in the PRO and PRO + EX groups lost more total weight and fat mass and tended to lose less lean mass (P = 0.10) than the CHO and CHO + EX groups. Exercise increased loss of body fat and preserved lean mass. The combined effects of diet and exercise were additive for improving body composition. Serum lipid profiles improved in all groups, but changes varied among diet treatments. Subjects in the CHO groups had larger reductions in total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol, whereas subjects in the PRO groups had greater reductions in triacylglycerol and maintained higher concentrations of HDL cholesterol. This study demonstrated that a diet with higher protein and reduced carbohydrates combined with exercise additively improved body composition during weight loss, whereas the effects on blood lipids differed between diet treatments.

That's why there's the first principle. They didn't test on higher than 1.6g/kg.

[Fatpanda]

HERE'S ANOTHER THAT SHOWS HOW VALUABLE PROTEIN IS WHILE DIETING.

A randomized trial of a hypocaloric high-protein diet, with and without exercise, on weight loss, fitness, and markers of the Metabolic Syndrome in overweight and obese women.Meckling KA, Sherfey R.
Department of Human Health and Nutritional Sciences, University of Guelph, Guelph, ON N1G 2W1, Canada. kmecklin@uoguelph.ca

The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of 3:1 and 1:1 carbohydrate to protein ratios, hypocaloric diets with and without exercise, and risk factors associated with the Metabolic Syndrome in overweight and obese Canadian women. Groups were designated as control diet (CON), control diet with exercise (CONEx), high-protein (HP), or high-protein with exercise (HPEx). Free-living women from the Guelph community were studied in a university health and fitness facility. The participants were 44 of 60 overweight and obese women who had been randomized to the 4 weight-loss programs. Habitual diets of the subjects were energy restricted and were to contain either a 1:1 or 3:1 ratio of carbohydrate to protein energy. Subjects either exercised 3 times/week or maintained their normal level of activity for 12 weeks. The main outcome measures were weight loss, blood lipids, blood pressure, insulin, body composition, nitrogen balance, fitness, and resting energy expenditure. All groups lost weight over the 12 week period: -2.1 kg for the CON group, -4.0 kg in the CONEx group, -4.6 kg in the HP group, and -7.0 kg in the HPEx. All participants exhibited improved body composition, decreased blood pressure, and decreased waist and hip circumference. Actual diets consumed by the subjects contained ratios of carbohydrate to protein of 3.0:1, 2.7:1, 1.5:1, and 0.96:1 for the CON, CONEx, HP, and HPEx groups, respectively. Cardiovascular fitness improved in both exercise groups. There were no changes in resting energy expenditure. No adverse events were reported. Significant changes in blood lipids included decreased total cholesterol in the HP and CONEx groups, decreased low-density lipoprotein cholesterol in the HP group only, and decreased blood triglycerides in the HPEx group only. High-density lipoprotein cholesterol, fasting blood glucose, and fasting insulin levels were unaltered by diet or exercise. A high-protein diet was superior to a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet either alone or when combined with an aerobic/resistance-training program in promoting weight loss and nitrogen balance, while similarly improving body composition and risk factors for the Metabolic Syndrome in overweight and obese Canadian women.

[Fatpanda]

That's why there's the first principle. They didn't test on higher than 1.6g/kg.

yes they aren't perfect studies but both show the benefit of higher protein amounts while in calorie deficit.

[ASJChaotic]

all roid rage

 

[wavelength]

HERE'S ANOTHER THAT SHOWS HOW VALUABLE PROTEIN IS WHILE DIETING.

A randomized trial of a hypocaloric high-protein diet, with and without exercise, on weight loss, fitness, and markers of the Metabolic Syndrome in overweight and obese women.Meckling KA, Sherfey R.
Department of Human Health and Nutritional Sciences, University of Guelph, Guelph, ON N1G 2W1, Canada. kmecklin@uoguelph.ca

The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of 3:1 and 1:1 carbohydrate to protein ratios, hypocaloric diets with and without exercise, and risk factors associated with the Metabolic Syndrome in overweight and obese Canadian women. Groups were designated as control diet (CON), control diet with exercise (CONEx), high-protein (HP), or high-protein with exercise (HPEx). Free-living women from the Guelph community were studied in a university health and fitness facility. The participants were 44 of 60 overweight and obese women who had been randomized to the 4 weight-loss programs. Habitual diets of the subjects were energy restricted and were to contain either a 1:1 or 3:1 ratio of carbohydrate to protein energy. Subjects either exercised 3 times/week or maintained their normal level of activity for 12 weeks. The main outcome measures were weight loss, blood lipids, blood pressure, insulin, body composition, nitrogen balance, fitness, and resting energy expenditure. All groups lost weight over the 12 week period: -2.1 kg for the CON group, -4.0 kg in the CONEx group, -4.6 kg in the HP group, and -7.0 kg in the HPEx. All participants exhibited improved body composition, decreased blood pressure, and decreased waist and hip circumference. Actual diets consumed by the subjects contained ratios of carbohydrate to protein of 3.0:1, 2.7:1, 1.5:1, and 0.96:1 for the CON, CONEx, HP, and HPEx groups, respectively. Cardiovascular fitness improved in both exercise groups. There were no changes in resting energy expenditure. No adverse events were reported. Significant changes in blood lipids included decreased total cholesterol in the HP and CONEx groups, decreased low-density lipoprotein cholesterol in the HP group only, and decreased blood triglycerides in the HPEx group only. High-density lipoprotein cholesterol, fasting blood glucose, and fasting insulin levels were unaltered by diet or exercise. A high-protein diet was superior to a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet either alone or when combined with an aerobic/resistance-training program in promoting weight loss and nitrogen balance, while similarly improving body composition and risk factors for the Metabolic Syndrome in overweight and obese Canadian women.

Meltdown.
Clearly not applicable to a superhuman Austrian oak.

[ASJChaotic]

clearly there is a cut off point for calories.

i'm not sure if bm in that study includes the ffm amount or is seperate. - i need the full study.

if its included then that study actually shows that 2000 cals extra a day produces minimum fat gain, but good muscle gain.

if its not included then the fat gain and muscle gain were around equal.

2000 excess calories a day will add 16 pounds of fat on you in 1 month ......

[Stavios]

Say hello to Lois Lane in Smallville for me then

awesome show 

[Fatpanda]

Meltdown.
Clearly not applicable to a superhuman Austrian oak.

or a bamboo munching panda 

[wavelength]

yes they aren't perfect studies but both show the benefit of higher protein amounts while in calorie deficit.

Never denied that. The question is where is the point where further increase has no or only insignificant benefits.

[Fatpanda]

2000 excess calories a day will add 16 pounds of fat on you in 1 month ......

well it was an extra 2000 cals after workouts only - 4x a week

so if it was including the ffm number with the bm number, it once again shows the benefit of post w/o nutrition 

[wavelength]

or a bamboo munching panda 

As long as you're melting down, might as well join the team of non-masochists all the way!

[Fatpanda]

Never denied that. The question is where is the point where further increase has no or only insignificant benefits.

well are we talking naturals or.........  

clearly kevin levrone, and others have built muscle during their pre contest diet's despite being in calorie deficit. so more protein does have positive effects - gear helps this.

a natural would be lucky to hold onto all his muscle - i think its more likely they would lose some no matter how much protein they ate.

[Fatpanda]

As long as you're melting down, might as well join the team of non-masochists all the way!

i'm not melting, one adonis principle may have ben upheld/validated, however the other one is clearly not.

when in calorie reduction, its best to eat more protein 

panda principle no:1

[wavelength]

when in calorie reduction, its best to eat more protein 

panda principle no:1

Same as AD principle 1. The question is what is the upper limit where further increase makes no sense anymore.

tbombz claimed there is no upper limit, so 95% protein would theoretically be perfect (taking into account that basic needs must be met, such as essential fats).

So what is this upper limit in the panda principle?

[ASJChaotic]

Same as AD principle 1. The question is what is the upper limit where further increase makes no sense anymore.

tbombz claimed there is no upper limit, so 95% protein would theoretically be perfect (taking into account that basic needs must be met, such as essential fats).

So what is this upper limit in the panda principle?

considering that before panda there is a "fat"
I wouldn't count too much on the Fatpanda principles 

[Fatpanda]

Same as AD principle 1. The question is what is the upper limit where further increase makes no sense anymore.

tbombz claimed there is no upper limit, so 95% protein would theoretically be perfect (taking into account that basic needs must be met, such as essential fats).

So what is this upper limit in the panda principle?

not much:

Anthropometric and calorimetric evidence for the protein sparing effects of a new protein supplemented low calorie preparation
LF Van Gaal, D Snyders, IH De Leeuw and JL Bekaert


A commercial protein sparing modified fast (PSMF) preparation has been evaluated for the protein sparing effects in 15 morbidly obese patients. During a 500 kcal preparation, given during a 6-week period, mean body weight and BMI decreased significantly. Total body fat decreased from 55.8 to 41.4 kg and lean body mass and arm muscle circumference (AMC) remained unchanged. Using indirect calorimetry and under the same degree of energy expenditure, carbohydrate metabolic consumption was significantly diminished (166 to 61 g/24 hr; p less than 0.001) but fat consumption was increased (116 to 155 g/24 hr; p less than 0.05) while the metabolic turn-over of protein was unchanged. This new presented PSMF preparation seems to present the typical properties of a protein sparing modified fast.

now bare in mind this involved the participants eating only 120g of protein a day - with no excercise ( further protein sparing effects). 

[Fatpanda]

considering that before panda there is a "fat"
I wouldn't count too much on the Fatpanda principles 

i'm teaching here son - you should be learning 

[chaos]

i'm teaching here son - you should be learning 

Ever heard the saying "You can't teach stupid arabs new tricks"....it applies to "MemberX".


Carry on.

[WillGrant]

AXA i have no problem with you. however your like me, two years ago. i try to save you from yourself cuz you say alot of stuff that is like basic as fuck yet you act like its so new, and most of it is like 1/10th correct only, but basically incorrect in most situations.

You still do not know wtf you are talking about

[WillGrant]

Nope, I wasn't being sarcastic. Show me one thing tbombz has posted which is glaringly incorrect.

Then you are clueless also.

[io856]

Then you are clueless also.

ohk