Hormones=AMAZING !

[wavelength]

not much:

Anthropometric and calorimetric evidence for the protein sparing effects of a new protein supplemented low calorie preparation
LF Van Gaal, D Snyders, IH De Leeuw and JL Bekaert


A commercial protein sparing modified fast (PSMF) preparation has been evaluated for the protein sparing effects in 15 morbidly obese patients. During a 500 kcal preparation, given during a 6-week period, mean body weight and BMI decreased significantly. Total body fat decreased from 55.8 to 41.4 kg and lean body mass and arm muscle circumference (AMC) remained unchanged. Using indirect calorimetry and under the same degree of energy expenditure, carbohydrate metabolic consumption was significantly diminished (166 to 61 g/24 hr; p less than 0.001) but fat consumption was increased (116 to 155 g/24 hr; p less than 0.05) while the metabolic turn-over of protein was unchanged. This new presented PSMF preparation seems to present the typical properties of a protein sparing modified fast.

now bare in mind this involved the participants eating only 120g of protein a day - with no excercise ( further protein sparing effects). 

Looks like they ate carbs and fats. What exactly was the macro composition? Unclear from that part.
Further, it's a study on morbidly obese patients, applicablity level even lower.

[WillGrant]

i agree with candy here.

there is not one single report in the many studies i have read on steroids, that someone responded better (statistically significant) to gear than another subject. the genetic thing is another myth

if the gear is legit - all subjects will respond. the only difference is how much protein/calories the subject gets.

anyone who has seen phil's video can see he has the easiest workouts I've seen.

1 set of 10, rest 1 set of 10 rest etc etc - never breaking sweat, or even out of breath - but clearly it's enough to stimulate growth on the gear he's on.

bodybuilding is a science - its the correct amount of sets/reps/weight + correct amount of gear + correct nutrition + correct diet strategies + correct conditioning strategies = Mr o.

Some may get one or 2 of the above right and get a pretty good physique - those that get it all right are on the Olympia stage.

Also this is why there are guru's in the sport  

Show me studies that proove Candi correct..e.g more gear = more mass and Im not talking scale weight,Im talking quality LBM in experienced bodybuilders who know how to diet and train correctly

[Fatpanda]

Ever heard the saying "You can't teach stupid arabs new tricks"....it applies to "MemberX".


Carry on.

yes theres a trend developing around

Looks like they ate carbs and fats. What exactly was the macro composition? Unclear from that part.
Further, it's a study on morbidly obese patients, applicablity level even lower.

they followed a protein sparring modified fast (psmf) - this means less than 1000cals / sometimes more depending on the amount of muscle mass on the patient- no carbs - minimum efa's (maybe 5g) - the rest protein (fibrous veg is also allowed).

it was designed by doctors to lead to maximum fat loss - minimum/no muscle loss.

[Fatpanda]

Show me studies that proove Candi correct..e.g more gear = more mass and Im not talking scale weight,Im talking quality LBM.

Dose-Dependent Effects of Testosterone on Regional Adipose Tissue Distribution in Healthy Young Men
Linda J. Woodhouse, Nidhi Gupta, Meenakshi Bhasin, Atam B. Singh, Robert Ross, Jeffrey Phillips and Shalender Bhasin
Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine (L.J.W., N.G., M.B., A.B.S., S.B.), Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, California 90059; School of Rehabilitation Sciences (L.J.W.), McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario Canada L8S 1C7; School of Physical and Health Education (R.R.), Queen’s University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada, K7L 3N6; and Harbor-University of California, Los Angeles Medical Center (J.P.), Torrance, California 90502

Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Linda Woodhouse, McMaster University, School of Rehabilitation Science, 1400 Main Street West, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8S 1C7. E-mail: woodhou@mcmaster.ca.

Testosterone supplementation reduces total body adipose tissue (AT), but we do not know whether the effects are uniformly distributed throughout the body or are region specific, or whether they are dose related.

We determined the effects of graded doses of testosterone on regional AT distribution in 54 healthy men (18–35 yr) in a 20-wk, randomized, double-blind study of combined treatment with GnRH agonist plus one of five doses (25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg/wk) of testosterone enanthate (TE). Total body, appendicular, and trunk AT and lean body mass were measured by dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry, and sc, intermuscular, and intraabdominal AT of the thigh and abdomen were measured by magnetic resonance imaging. Treatment regimens resulted in serum nadir testosterone concentrations ranging from subphysiological to supraphysiological levels. Dose-dependent changes in AT mass were negatively correlated with TE dose at all sites and were equally distributed between the trunk and appendices. The lowest dose was associated with gains in sc, intermuscular, and intraabdominal AT, with the greatest percent increase occurring in the sc stores. At the three highest TE doses, thigh intermuscular AT volume was significantly reduced, with a greater percent loss in intermuscular than sc depots, whereas intraabdominal AT stores remained unchanged. In conclusion, changes in testosterone concentrations in young men are associated with dose-dependent and region-specific changes in AT and lean body mass in the appendices and trunk. Lowering testosterone concentrations below baseline increases sc and deep AT stores in the appendices and abdomen, with a greater percent increase in sc depots. Conversely, elevating testosterone concentrations above baseline induces a greater loss of AT from the smaller, deeper intermuscular stores of the thigh

download the full study ( its free) and read it - its highly enlightening. muscle mass and fat mass is directly corelated to dose.

[Tapeworm]

TA's principals were originally all about dieting.  He has ammended and changed them over time, and I applaud him for doing so, but I think they are still meant to be applied to fat loss only.  

Will, come on.  More steroids means more lbm gain.  The difference between 4g a week and 5g a week will probably be less than the difference between 0g and 1000g but we don't need double blind studies to show us that AAS promotes muscle mass.

[Fatpanda]

it was a joke, calm down, people can't have a little fun on here? 

but you were mean, and called me fat 

[Tapeworm]

Maybe he calls it panda.

[Fatpanda]

  

[wavelength]

they followed a protein sparring modified fast (psmf) - this means less than 1000cals / sometimes more depending on the amount of muscle mass on the patient- no carbs - minimum efa's (maybe 5g) - the rest protein (fibrous veg is also allowed).

it was designed by doctors to lead to maximum fat loss - minimum/no muscle loss.

Are there studies on a PSMF for non-obese lifters going from let's say 15% to a lower body weight? Have you ever tried or know of people who have? I don't think in this study, the morbidly obese people were people coming from a weight lifting background and I also don't think they have been doing any kind of exercise during their fast, right?

What I have tried in the past is a cutting diet with very high protein, moderate fats, and practically no carbs. The results on body composition were horrible. I was literally losing strength and muscle mass while keeping fat mass. Could be a genetic thing though.

[wavelength]

TA's principals were originally all about dieting.  He has ammended and changed them over time, and I applaud him for doing so, but I think they are still meant to be applied to fat loss only.

I agree about the dieting part. I always said that I don't know yet how the principles would work for a bulk. That's my next project.

I also don't know whether he changed them over time or if he just clarified details later on. When I started my first threads, he chimed in and basically confirmed everything I said about my current diet. The only thing that was changed from my original rules was that I started with 0.5g / lb body mass for protein, since I knew that below that value is too low, at least for me. It was then suggested by TA and other members, that we should use LBM instead of body mass and use 1g / lb of LBM. I still think that a lower value is also sufficient for me, but since I am above that in my current diet, and I have never tried values in between, I went with what TA suggested for the first principle.

[wavelength]

but you were mean, and called me fat 

What would TA say here?

[WillGrant]

Dose-Dependent Effects of Testosterone on Regional Adipose Tissue Distribution in Healthy Young Men
Linda J. Woodhouse, Nidhi Gupta, Meenakshi Bhasin, Atam B. Singh, Robert Ross, Jeffrey Phillips and Shalender Bhasin
Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine (L.J.W., N.G., M.B., A.B.S., S.B.), Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, California 90059; School of Rehabilitation Sciences (L.J.W.), McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario Canada L8S 1C7; School of Physical and Health Education (R.R.), Queen’s University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada, K7L 3N6; and Harbor-University of California, Los Angeles Medical Center (J.P.), Torrance, California 90502

Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Linda Woodhouse, McMaster University, School of Rehabilitation Science, 1400 Main Street West, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8S 1C7. E-mail: woodhou@mcmaster.ca.

Testosterone supplementation reduces total body adipose tissue (AT), but we do not know whether the effects are uniformly distributed throughout the body or are region specific, or whether they are dose related.

We determined the effects of graded doses of testosterone on regional AT distribution in 54 healthy men (18–35 yr) in a 20-wk, randomized, double-blind study of combined treatment with GnRH agonist plus one of five doses (25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg/wk) of testosterone enanthate (TE). Total body, appendicular, and trunk AT and lean body mass were measured by dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry, and sc, intermuscular, and intraabdominal AT of the thigh and abdomen were measured by magnetic resonance imaging. Treatment regimens resulted in serum nadir testosterone concentrations ranging from subphysiological to supraphysiological levels. Dose-dependent changes in AT mass were negatively correlated with TE dose at all sites and were equally distributed between the trunk and appendices. The lowest dose was associated with gains in sc, intermuscular, and intraabdominal AT, with the greatest percent increase occurring in the sc stores. At the three highest TE doses, thigh intermuscular AT volume was significantly reduced, with a greater percent loss in intermuscular than sc depots, whereas intraabdominal AT stores remained unchanged. In conclusion, changes in testosterone concentrations in young men are associated with dose-dependent and region-specific changes in AT and lean body mass in the appendices and trunk. Lowering testosterone concentrations below baseline increases sc and deep AT stores in the appendices and abdomen, with a greater percent increase in sc depots. Conversely, elevating testosterone concentrations above baseline induces a greater loss of AT from the smaller, deeper intermuscular stores of the thigh

download the full study ( its free) and read it - its highly enlightening. muscle mass and fat mass is directly corelated to dose.

Where does it say anything over 1 gram of test a week? Candi is saying to "mega dose"
That study has nothing to do with what he said about ramping up gear use untill you start gaining lbm ?

[Cleanest Natural]

yeah, he created a bad ass body with all those drugs, the only problem was he never turned the key (trained) or put in any gas (ate)... the dude was a little fucking fairy and ate like a damn bird.. my mother trains harder than he did and all she does is she walks 20 mins every morning... mike zumpano said duchaine ate 1800 calories a day... what a joke.. duchaine is everyhting wrong with bodybuilding drugs... guys who think like him should be shot..

well pointedout

I also think that dan duchain is overrated and my take on him was that he was heavy into rec drugs and experimented a loton others ..which is not good ..

And his appeal to the masses : I put in in the same category w/ Borressen due to the fact that he had the gift of gab ...he knew how to package and sell ideas .

But both him and Borressen were troubled individuals who fucked themselves up royally.

I still stand by the fact that the 3-4000 posts GH15 made on getbig are THE MOST PRECIOUS THING GIVEN TO THE BB COMMUNITY BY THE BB ESTABLISHMENT IN THE HYSTORY OF THIS DISCIPLINE.

[WillGrant]

well pointedout

I also think that dan duchain is overrated and my take on him was that he was heavy into rec drugs and experimented a loton others ..which is not good ..

And his appeal to the masses : I put in in the same category w/ Borressen due to the fact that he had the gift of gab ...he knew how to package and sell ideas .

But both him and Borressen were troubled individuals who fucked themselves up royally.

I still stand by the fact that the 3-4000 posts GH15 made on getbig are THE MOST PRECIOUS THING GIVEN TO THE BB COMMUNITY BY THE BB ESTABLISHMENT IN THE HYSTORY OF THIS DISCIPLINE.

Candi knows nothing of Dan,if he did he would know DD Lived the BB lifestyle to the extreme for a number of years,he competed have you? has candi? no.
So Candi saying he ate like a bird and trained like a fairy is more rubbish being put forth by a know nothing shit stain , much like your self 

Whilst we are touching on "training like a fairy" Candy ive seen some of the junk you have posted  about how you are training,if you are 210pds wanting to get to 230pds increasing your gear from 1g to 2g a week wont help with that shit training routine you are using.

You need to get your basics right first , but what can you expect from someone who jumps into gear before they know how to train , right ?

[Cleanest Natural]

Candi knows nothing of Dan,if he did he would know DD Lived the BB lifestyle to the extreme for a number of years,he competed have you? has candi? no.
So Candi saying he ate like a bird and trained like a fairy is more rubbish being put forth by a know nothing shit stain , much like your self 

Whilst we are touching on "training like a fairy" Candy ive seen some of the junk you have posted  about how you are training,if you are 210pds wanting to get to 230pds increasing your gear from 1g to 2g a week wont help with that shit training routine you are using.

You need to get your basics right first , but what can you expect from someone who jumps into gear before they know how to train , right ?

I did my first show in 94...lol...you do the math hotshot ...

stop talking ..youare embarrassing yourself.

duchain was a guy heavily into rec drugs ...if that'syur idea of whotolisten to ....

he fucking advocated DNP for crying out loud ..

also there are plenty of not so nice stories about Dan you don't know

[WillGrant]

I did my first show in 94...lol...you do the math hotshot ...

stop talking ..youare embarrassing yourself.

duchain was a guy heavily into rec drugs ...if that'syur idea of whotolisten to ....

he fucking advocated DNP for crying out loud ..

also there are plenty of not so nice stories about Dan you don't know

The math? well the math says you still look average even with gear use..
I think you  need to stop talking Sev , you really do not know what you are talking about.

Whats Dan being into recs , using DNP and you thinking you know someone because you "heard it" got to do with Dan living the bodybuilding lifestyle and training hard?

Absolutly nothing..

Candy said he ate like a bird and trained like a fairy, I pointed out this was not true when Dan first got into the lifestyle and AAS (before the other stuff)he was dedicated as much as anyone but he soon realised that no ammount of steroids will change your genetic fate..

So before you start another idiotic thread run along and learn a bit more and try some real gear 

[Cleanest Natural]

The math? well the math says you still look average even with gear use..
I think you  need to stop talking Sev , you really do not know what you are talking about.

Whats Dan being into recs , using DNP and you thinking you know someone because you "heard it" got to do with Dan living the bodybuilding lifestyle and training hard?

Absolutly nothing..

Candy said he ate like a bird and trained like a fairy, I pointed out this was not true when Dan first got into the lifestyle and AAS (before the other stuff)he was dedicated as much as anyone but he soon realised that no ammount of steroids will change your genetic fate..

So before you start another idiotic thread run along and learn a bit more and try some real gear 

Epic trying to act like you know when in factYOU DON'T !

Everybody considers you a joke around here ...you're only confirming it..

[WillGrant]

Epic trying to act like you know when in factYOU DON'T !

Everybody considers you a joke around here ...you're only confirming it..

Hahaha monster showing you care what anyone thinks about you on an internet board..

Look homo so far Iv owned you with every post you never have a comeback and if you do I shoot it down..

And I know 110 % more than you 

[Cleanest Natural]

Hahaha monster showing you care what anyone thinks about you on an internet board..

Look homo so far Iv owned you with every post you never have a comeback and if you do I shoot it down..

And I know 110 % more than you 

I noticed you can talk  big ...now post a pic or a video to se all that fine knowledge @ work

hhahahahahahahaa ..that's right 

[Camel Jockey]

how do you know he has good genetics?


he could have went straight to mega doses and slin and in three years time anybody who goes straight to mega doses hard trianing and lots of food will beocme a monster... maybe if you know for a fact phil was only using minima amounts then you can say he has amazing genetics BUT you dont know.. phil could have average genetics...

He looks ripped in that picture of him playing ball and his calves look big too!

Phil can still take to the house! How many pros you know that can dunk a basketball?

[Fatpanda]

Where does it say anything over 1 gram of test a week? Candi is saying to "mega dose"
That study has nothing to do with what he said about ramping up gear use untill you start gaining lbm ?

 

if you don't gain muscle on 600mg of test a week, you are not human

[Fatpanda]

Are there studies on a PSMF for non-obese lifters going from let's say 15% to a lower body weight? Have you ever tried or know of people who have? I don't think in this study, the morbidly obese people were people coming from a weight lifting background and I also don't think they have been doing any kind of exercise during their fast, right?

What I have tried in the past is a cutting diet with very high protein, moderate fats, and practically no carbs. The results on body composition were horrible. I was literally losing strength and muscle mass while keeping fat mass. Could be a genetic thing though.

i have posted 3 studies now that show the value of more protein while cutting - are you still questioning this? the value of more protein while dieting is without question. i could find lots of better studies ( i have read lots of better studies) but these are the first ones i came across last night.

the psmf shows that it is possible to maintain ALL lean mass with the low intake of 120g protein alone - nothing more. obviously the leaner you get the more muscle wil be at risk, however it stands to reason that a slight increase in protein level would be enough to sustain any lean mass - regardless of bodyfat level.

[tbombz]

fatpanda i already described a cutting diet and why protie is cutting diet food.. some guys wll never learn or they will never accept whats accurate...they would rather believe what they want to believe than actually know the truth

me however i hate to be wrong, i want to be right 100% of the time, so anytime i see some thing i think that is proved wrong i will immidietly transfer my beliefs to what is proven to be correct..i see no point in having any incorrect beliefes... why be wrong when you can be right ? 

[Fatpanda]

fatpanda i already described a cutting diet and why protie is cutting diet food.. some guys wll never learn or they will never accept whats accurate...they would rather believe what they want to believe than actually know the truth

me however i hate to be wrong, i want to be right 100% of the time, so anytime i see some thing i think that is proved wrong i will immidietly transfer my beliefs to what is proven to be correct..i see no point in having any incorrect beliefes... why be wrong when you can be right ? 

thats why you are looking bigger and better every month 

when you stop learning, you stop growing 

wave and will are losing objectivity.

they believe they are right despite what science tells them. 

[wavelength]

thats why you are looking bigger and better every month 

when you stop learning, you stop growing 

wave and will are losing objectivity.

they believe they are right despite what science tells them. 

Nopes, I just don't care about science (of which its applicability or validity I can't check anyway), I only care about my experience. As I said, I wouldn't hit myself over the head with a hammer twice just because an egghead tells me it shouldn't have hurt the first time around.

I'm always willing to change my methods, if my experience shows me that something else works better. This is exactly the way I got to my current method over the past 10 years.

And yes, you have presented studies which show that increased protein intake during a diet improves body composition, and I never denied that. The only question is if there is a certain level at which further increase makes no sense anymore or even has negative effect on body composition. The study with the obese people indicates that such an upper level does not exist. Since my experience indicates otherwise, I can only assume that what works for the avarage, morbidely obese, physically inactive person just doesn't work for me.

So if you are so sure that a protein only diet is best for cutting, why don't you try it on your next cut? I would be interested in the results and your progress pics.