the denial phenomenon

[ironneck]

GM's four cylinders are on par with honda in terms of reliability and power output, and they are on par with Toyota's 2JZ-GE legendary reliability. In terms of diesels yeah, the Americans are lagging.

Caddy's is coming up...the CTS-V makes the M5 look tame.

But you do know that BMW uses GM trannys...and so did Rolls Royce at one time...

as DK said...efficiency brother!

[DK II]

Denial?
Can someone explain to me
what that means?
Am I in denial?

You're delusional, but that is sth else.

[ironneck]

even if we are talking about power...italian and german cars are faster than american cars
please compare a shelby gt(over 500 PS) to a M3(420 PS) on the nürburgring...the M3 wins allthough the M3 has a smaller engine

it's all about efficiency!don't get me wrong,there are many great american cars but european cars are much better in every way

[Parker]

I swear I am not making this stuff up!  That is what one guy said when I pointed out that GM was in trouble more than a year ago.  The thread is still on the forums at caranddriver.com if you care to read it for yourself.

In the same thread, someone posted a pic of a Corvette and said that Toyota needed to copy it (the 'vette).  Then someone retorted by observing that “Toyota could build a car better than the Corvette [if they wanted to]. Toyota would much rather make cars that sell half-a-million copies per year. There isn't a hole lot of money to be made on Vettes. If GM is depending on the Corvette to save them, they're in deep doodoo.”

The American car lovers on caranddriver.com are in serious denial... even now

Lexus has the LF-A, that didn't meet their expectations, so that car has been pushed back to 2012...but with the economy in the tank it may never come out. But the Corvette Zr1 is already out...

As far a Denial, Americans are typically in denial mode, about many things. Their money, their health ("This doesn't make me look fat does it?"), Their relationships ("He says he loves me, that's enough, right?"), Politcs, drug usage, discipline of children, education...Basically thid country is is just broke. Period.

I think Paul Kennedy's "The Rise and Fall of The Great Powers", should be mandatory reading in High Schools and Colleges across the nation.  

[Parker]

even if we are talking about power...italian and german cars are faster than american cars
please compare a shelby gt(over 500 PS) to a M3(420 PS) on the nürburgring...the M3 wins allthough the M3 has a smaller engine

it's all about efficiency!don't get me wrong,there are many great american cars but european cars are much better in every way

The SHelby GT500 is a POS pig. Solid Rear Axle, of course the Italians, German's and Japanese are faster. Ford never wanted to spend money on a IRS. I firmly believe that within the Mustang's development time (since the 60's), the base GT should be taking out M3's by now. If the Ford GT500 was developed by Ford of Europe, this car would have been phenomenal.  But no, it was developed by SVT  and had Shelby's blessing (and badging).... 

[Bobby]

even if we are talking about power...italian and german cars are faster than american cars
please compare a shelby gt(over 500 PS) to a M3(420 PS) on the nürburgring...the M3 wins allthough the M3 has a smaller engine

it's all about efficiency!don't get me wrong,there are many great american cars but european cars are much better in every way

yes bmw is über to bad most of their current cars look like shit!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BMW_528xi_sedan.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BMW_E60_front_20080515.j pg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BMW_3er_Limousine07.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:3er_facelift_front.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:3er_facelift_rear.JPG

Barf

[DK II]

Thanks a lot, Vince Venom! You're a class act!

[ironneck]

yes bmw is über to bad most of their current cars look like shit!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BMW_528xi_sedan.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BMW_E60_front_20080515.j pg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BMW_3er_Limousine07.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:3er_facelift_front.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:3er_facelift_rear.JPG

Barf

i think most bmw's look fucking great!
watch out for the new bmw 7 series and the new bmw z4!
also the bmw cs!

[ironneck]

i hope they make this car one day...most beautiful thing i have seen

[Bobby]

i think most bmw's look fucking great!
watch out for the new bmw 7 series and the new bmw z4!
also the bmw cs!

i think most bmw's look fucking great!
watch out for the new bmw 7 series and the new bmw z4!
also the bmw cs!

I think they're too round these days, bubble shaped like audis. I like more straight lines. The Z series i've never been a fan of no matter what version.
They used to look great

[BayGBM]

Are any of you car guys in the forums on caranddriver.com,  motortrend.com, or elsewhere?

[ironneck]

Are any of you car guys in the forums on caranddriver.com,  motortrend.com, or elsewhere?

autobild.de ^^

[ironneck]

I think they're too round these days, bubble shaped like audis. I like more straight lines. The Z series i've never been a fan of no matter what version.
They used to look great

mh i personally prefere the "bubble shape",flows better

[NarcissisticDeity]

The SHelby GT500 is a POS pig. Solid Rear Axle, of course the Italians, German's and Japanese are faster. Ford never wanted to spend money on a IRS. I firmly believe that within the Mustang's development time (since the 60's), the base GT should be taking out M3's by now. If the Ford GT500 was developed by Ford of Europe, this car would have been phenomenal.  But no, it was developed by SVT  and had Shelby's blessing (and badging).... 

1999 Mustang Cobra had IRS and Mustang fans HATED it hence they went back to a solid rear axle and you're high if you think the GT500 is a POS it does what it's designed to do and it does it well

[NarcissisticDeity]

even if we are talking about power...italian and german cars are faster than american cars
please compare a shelby gt(over 500 PS) to a M3(420 PS) on the nürburgring...the M3 wins allthough the M3 has a smaller engine

it's all about efficiency!don't get me wrong,there are many great american cars but european cars are much better in every way

The new Corvette ZR1 will destroy anything from the factory from Germany & Italy and Japan around the ring and do it in some cases for 1/3rd the price as well ! do a little research before you type.

[Bobby]

wouldn't mind any of these...

[NarcissisticDeity]

This Dodge Viper is faster around the Nurburgring than ANY stock Porsche , Ferrari , Pagani , Maserati , McLaren , Corvette , Koeningsegg , Lamborghini , Bugatti , etc

[DK II]

You idiots are discussing Vettes and M3s. We are talking automobile industry here. People buy cars where a family and a full weeks shopping fit in and that runs 1000 miles with one filling. Those sports cars are a niche, they bring no money for a normal car manufacturer. Toyota is No1 because they focus on cars people need, not some bogus race car only a few can afford. THAT is the cream on top, and Toyota knows this. I have visited Toyota plants in Japan, Toyota's headquarters and believe me, Toyota is thinking way beyond automobiles. You all will have a Toyota at home in 10 years, not necessarily a car though.

[NarcissisticDeity]

You idiots are discussing Vettes and M3s. We are talking automobile industry here. People buy cars where a family and a full weeks shopping fit in and that runs 1000 miles with one filling. Those sports cars are a niche, they bring no money for a normal car manufacturer. Toyota is No1 because they focus on cars people need, not some bogus race car only a few can afford. THAT is the cream on top, and Toyota knows this. I have visited Toyota plants in Japan, Toyota's headquarters and believe me, Toyota is thinking way beyond automobiles. You all will have a Toyota at home in 10 years, not necessarily a car though.

The fast cars get people into the dealerships to buy ecno-boxes and one of the sole reasons Toyota kicked everyone's ass is reliability , people got sick and tired of fixing that POS from the big three ME included , I've own two Hondas and they ran like sewing machines , the can ran whenever you turned that key , the cheap Japanese steel in another story lol

[Parker]

1999 Mustang Cobra had IRS and Mustang fans HATED it hence they went back to a solid rear axle and you're high if you think the GT500 is a POS it does what it's designed to do and it does it well

Truth be told, they  only did a minor redesign of the rear axle, they said that drag racers wouldn't like the IRS, but it was because didn't want to spend money on the Mustang (it was rumored to have the a version of the Lincoln LS IRS). Only a few of the V8 buyers actually turn their cars into drag racers, and V6 engines Mustangs today sell the V8's by a huge margin. Also Mercedes AMG's make huge HP and torques figures, and the old SL65 could do 11.6 with the AC on, and they all have IRS.

Many mustang fans are like today's complaining Corvette fans, they like cheap HP, and that is what the Mustang is cheap...even the 65 coupe had a rip off design of the a 1956 one off Ferrari (what you thought the Mustang was a original design, it 's not). Cheap interior, it's built to a budget, hell they made a big deal of being able to change the color of the dash lighting. The only good thing about the Mustang is the engine. I wish Ford would poor more money into better cars, and as I said, had this been designed in a Ford of Europe studio and engineered there, it would be of better qaulity.

The Shelby GT500 does 0-60 in 4.5 secs, for a car that has the GT's 5.4 SC engine (500-550 HP) that is shitty indeed. The E46 M3 CSL does it in that much or quicker, with only 360 HP, but it is lighter. The GT500 is a pig, it's close to 4000 pounds, and with a solid rear axle, that means, it doesn't handle for anything, and it's slow.

It's unacceptable. Ford can't make a descent car, hell they even F up the GT, they put the wrong engine in it. They were designing and testing a V10 that made more HP, at the very same time they were building the GT, where did the V10 end up, in the Shelby GR-1 concept, that never saw production...Again FORD...the F in Ford stands "F" up.

ND, that is why I have a Lexus. I had a Ford Taurus, my dad is a FORD man thru and thru, but I want reliability, plus performance, but most importantly reliability

[NarcissisticDeity]

Truth be told, they  only did a minor redesign of the rear axle, they said that drag racers wouldn't like the IRS, but it was because didn't want to spend money on the Mustang (it was rumored to have the a version of the Lincoln LS IRS). Only a few of the V8 buyers actually turn their cars into drag racers, and V6 engines Mustangs today sell the V8's by a huge margin. Also Mercedes AMG's make huge HP and torques figures, and the old SL65 could do 11.6 with the AC on, and they all have IRS.

Many mustang fans are like today's complaining Corvette fans, they like cheap HP, and that is what the Mustang is cheap...even the 65 coupe had a rip off design of the a 1956 one off Ferrari (what you thought the Mustang was a original design, it 's not). Cheap interior, it's built to a budget, hell they made a big deal of being able to change the color of the dash lighting. The only good thing about the Mustang is the engine. I wish Ford would poor more money into better cars, and as I said, had this been designed in a Ford of Europe studio and engineered there, it would be of better qaulity.

The Shelby GT500 does 0-60 in 4.5 secs, for a car that has the GT's 5.4 SC engine (500-550 HP) that is shitty indeed. The E46 M3 CSL does it in that much or quicker, with only 360 HP, but it is lighter. The GT500 is a pig, it's close to 4000 pounds, and with a solid rear axle, that means, it doesn't handle for anything, and it's slow.

It's unacceptable. Ford can't make a descent car, hell they even F up the GT, they put the wrong engine in it. They were designing and testing a V10 that made more HP, at the very same time they were building the GT, where did the V10 end up, in the Shelby GR-1 concept, that never saw production...Again FORD...the F in Ford stands "F" up.

ND, that is why I have a Lexus. I had a Ford Taurus, my dad is a FORD man thru and thru, but I want reliability, plus performance, but most importantly reliability

Truth be told, they  only did a minor redesign of the rear axle, they said that drag racers wouldn't like the IRS, but it was because didn't want to spend money on the Mustang (it was rumored to have the a version of the Lincoln LS IRS). Only a few of the V8 buyers actually turn their cars into drag racers, and V6 engines Mustangs today sell the V8's by a huge margin. Also Mercedes AMG's make huge HP and torques figures, and the old SL65 could do 11.6 with the AC on, and they all have IRS.

The drag racers didn't like it , to much wheel hop off the line and lets face it the Mustang's focus group is straight line speed freaks , they tried the Euro-Stang in 1984 SVO ring a bell? turbo-4 , four wheel dics much more expensive than a GT and a lot slower Ford tried and the owners revolted and they listed , Ford wanted to make the Mustang FWD the UAW trended a strike another revolt Ford listened

And the V6 Mustangs always out sold the V8s even in the 60s people wanted the look without the price

It's unacceptable. Ford can't make a descent car, hell they even F up the GT, they put the wrong engine in it. They were designing and testing a V10 that made more HP, at the very same time they were building the GT, where did the V10 end up, in the Shelby GR-1 concept, that never saw production...Again FORD...the F in Ford stands "F" up.

I disagree I think the GT was one hell of a car and the 03/04 Mustang Cobras are amazing cars for what they were designed for , straight line speed , but as a whole Ford is playing catch-up and so has the rest of Detroit

Many mustang fans are like today's complaining Corvette fans, they like cheap HP, and that is what the Mustang is cheap...even the 65 coupe had a rip off design of the a 1956 one off Ferrari (what you thought the Mustang was a original design, it 's not). Cheap interior, it's built to a budget, hell they made a big deal of being able to change the color of the dash lighting. The only good thing about the Mustang is the engine. I wish Ford would poor more money into better cars, and as I said, had this been designed in a Ford of Europe studio and engineered there, it would be of better qaulity.

Your got it right Americans want cheap HP and they get what the pay for in the form of solid rear axle and cheap interiors , Ford's quality has improved over the years thanks to Honda & Toyota but again they're still playing catch

ND, that is why I have a Lexus. I had a Ford Taurus, my dad is a FORD man thru and thru, but I want reliability, plus performance, but most importantly reliability

Some old timers just refuse to change but I see a LOT of older people in Japanese cars because their reputations for dead reliability speaks for themselves , I know dye-in-the-wool BIG 3 types driving Japanese now and when the Big 3 can give them that type of reliability they'll return

[ironneck]

ND YOU ARE STUPID!!!
a bugatti fucks all of your american cars...not even questionable

[Buffgeek]

While I agree that foreign Cars are better in most cases, I dont think that is the reason American Companies are getting crushed.

What is the biggest difference between GM, dodge, Ford, and Crystler vs Honda of American, and Toyota of America??

UNIONS!!!!  Honda and Toyota kept the unions out by incentivizing (sp) their workers though pay for performance and stock. These foreign companies in America have been making a killing here ever since.

The Auto Unions have become fat a bloated and have run the American Auto industry to the ground. These companies spend more on Healthcare than Steel. Its hard to invest in R&D and turn a profit when your human capital is dragging your bottom line into the gutter.

[The Luke]

The Auto Unions have become fat a bloated and have run the American Auto industry to the ground. These companies spend more on Healthcare than Steel. Its hard to invest in R&D and turn a profit when your human capital is dragging your bottom line into the gutter.

...you just regurgitate whatever FOX News tells you, BuffGeek. Your every post is an insult to thinking people everywhere.

Unions are killing the American car industry? WTF? Japanese workers are treated better than any American factory worker could ever dream of being treated.

American cars are just twenty years behind European and American engineering standards... simple as that:
-leaf spring suspension (Jesus, I have that on my classic 70's sports car and I'm going to replace it)
-inefficient engines (the 1,800 cc [1.8 litre] Lotus Exige would blitz that Corvette around Nurberg)
-poor fuel efficiency (the French won't touch a car that gets less than 50 mpg)
-poor power outputs: Americans measure brake horsepower at the crank, Europeans measure it on a dynonometer. The American answer is always to simply add heavy gauge steel to the frame and a huge V8 under the hood... they never even consider engineering more power from a smaller engine.

This technology lag is due to American car manufacturers having a captive market/populace for so long... that and the classic American "not-knowing-shit" attitude.


I used the Lotus Exige as an example here because for $70k you can get an 850 kg (1,900 lb) dinky European sports car that not only handles and corners better than ANY American production sports car (in ANY price range), but it does 0-60 mph in less than four seconds... and all of that from a 1.8 litre engine... what's that Viper? Six litres?


ND listed several foreign manufacturers whose cars couldn't possibly beat the big Dodge Viper pictured.

How ignorant is that considering each and every one of those manufacturers produce a model that could smoke that Viper around the Nurberg ring:
-Porsche   ...the GT3 version of the 911 turbo
-Ferrari   ...the F430 (you wouldn't even need a competent driver with the advanced drivers aid software)
-Pagani   ...the Zonda
-Maserati   ...the Quattraporte
-McLaren   ...the McLaren F1 (fastest production car in the world when new)
-Koeningsegg   ...the new top of the line TG model has nearly 700 horsepower
-Lamborghini   ...just the basic (relatively) cheap Gallardo would beat the Viper due to it's FWD
-Bugatti   ...don't they make the 1,000 horsepower Veyron believed to be the best car in the world?

...perhaps Americans aren't really in denial. Perhaps they're just plain stoooopid.


The Luke

[DK II]

American cars suck, plain and simple.

What the fuck do you even care for a race on the Nürburgring, a Dodge Viper or Corvette SCREAMS pimp or new money.

Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, these are cars with class.