Poll finds 23% of Texans think Obama is Muslim

[Dos Equis]

And when that child hits the age of reason, they leave the Catholic church. So all that was pointless...

Not the point.  

[Dos Equis]

how the hell do you pray before you can talk?

how do you even know what it means to pray?

She could fold her hands, say some baby jibberish, and say "Amen."    Extremely smart kid.  She was probably around 18 months old (possibly younger), if I recall correctly.   

[OzmO]

I'm not talking about Obama.  I don't know or care what his religion was at birth, etc.  I'm just addressing your contention that a person isn't "born" a certain religion.  This might be splitting hairs, but what I described is essentially a person being "born" a certain religion.  When a person is indoctrinated from the time they are able to sit upright and often before they can even talk, that's effectively being a certain religion since birth.

For example, my oldest kid could pray before she could talk.  So, yes she trained, but she was trained since birth.  It really is a distinction without a difference IMO.   
 

What defines a person a muslim, christian, hindu, etc.?  Not that they are born that way.  Everythind you have described is being raised muslim, christian, hindu, etc. after birth.

that's why thinking someone is born a certain religion or profession is ludicrous.

[Straw Man]

She could fold her hands, say some baby jibberish, and say "Amen."    Extremely smart kid.  She was probably around 18 months old (possibly younger), if I recall correctly.   

so saying baby jibberish is the equivalent of praying in your world?

[Dos Equis]

What defines a person a muslim, christian, hindu, etc.?  Not that they are born that way.  Everythind you have described is being raised muslim, christian, hindu, etc. after birth.

that's why thinking someone is born a certain religion or profession is ludicrous.

When does that religious training start?  For many it starts at birth, so it's not ludicrous at all.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not talking about anything genetic.  This is something that starts with many kids before they can talk, and in the case of Catholics when the baby is christened as an infant.

So yes I am describing how a person is raised, but it happens for many so early in life that it really doesn't matter whether you want to call it "born that way" or "raised that way."  It's not even the kid's choice.   

[Straw Man]

When does that religious training start?  For many it starts at birth, so it's not ludicrous at all.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not talking about anything genetic.  This is something that starts with many kids before they can talk, and in the case of Catholics when the baby is christened as an infant.

So yes I am describing how a person is raised, but it happens for many so early in life that it really doesn't matter whether you want to call it "born that way" or "raised that way."  It's not even the kid's choice.    

is that how it was for your kids?

[OzmO]

When does that religious training start?  For many it starts at birth, so it's not ludicrous at all. 

Yes that's extremely ludicrous.  Religious training at birth.     Yeah like the infant understands the scripture being read to him/her while the cord is being cut!  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA H

People are born one of 2 things:   BOYS or GIRLS

So yes I am describing how a person is raised, but it happens for many so early in life that it really doesn't matter whether you want to call it "born that way" or "raised that way."  It's not even the kid's choice.

Yeah it does matter because it's grossly incorrect.

EVERYTHING you have described relates to being raised.

 Imagine the dismay when a Christian Family gives birth to a Muslim. 

[Dos Equis]

Yes that's extremely ludicrous.  Religious training at birth.    

People are born one of 2 things:   BOYS or GIRLS

Yeah it does matter because it's grossly incorrect.

EVERYTHING you have described relates to being raised.

 Imagine the dismay when a Christian Family gives birth to a Muslim. 

I'm not talking about genetics.  As I said, it's really a distinction without a difference.

You've apparently never seen parents take their babies to Sunday School.   

[OzmO]

I'm not talking about genetics.  As I said, it's really a distinction without a difference.

You've apparently never seen parents take their babies to Sunday School.   

Yeah and the babies understand whats being taught.      

Aside from that, those are far removed from being born. 

Religious training at birth.   Yeah like the infant understands the scripture being read to him/her while the cord is being cut!  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA H

[Dos Equis]

Yeah and the babies understand whats being taught.      

Aside from that, those are far removed from being born. 

Religious training at birth.   Yeah like the infant understands the scripture being read to him/her while the cord is being cut!  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA H

You're missing the point.  Of course they don't understand everything.  They start understanding many things at around 6 months.  They understand what you're saying about many things before 12 months.  Many of them can talk before age 2.  Do they understand scripture?  No.  That's stupid and I didn't say that.  But I can see you really don't want to have a serious discussion, so I won't waste my time.     

In any event, you should go to church sometime, early, and visit the classes where these toddlers are.  You might learn something.    

[Decker]

I wish he was Muslim.  That matters only to the right people.  It don't mean a thing to our political system.

This is the trivia that occupies our political discourse.

[Straw Man]

You're missing the point.  Of course they don't understand everything.  They start understanding many things at around 6 months.  They understand what you're saying about many things before 12 months.  Many of them can talk before age 2.  Do they understand scripture?  No.  That's stupid and I didn't say that.  But I can see you really don't want to have a serious discussion, so I won't waste my time.     

In any event, you should go to church sometime, early, and visit the classes where these toddlers are.  You might learn something.    

I seriously doubt that kids even at the ages of grade school can really have a good understanding of the concept of a God at least to the same level of fear that the adults carry around with them

That the reason why the Catholics have confirmation at ~ 8th grade.  

[The Coach]

I wish he was Muslim.  That matters only to the right people.  It don't mean a thing to our political system.

This is the trivia that occupies our political discourse.

I'd venture to say he is since he never renounced it.

[Dos Equis]

I wish he was Muslim.  That matters only to the right people.  It don't mean a thing to our political system.

This is the trivia that occupies our political discourse.

Doesn't matter to me either.  The only thing I would care about is dishonesty (if he lied about it). 

[OzmO]

You're missing the point.  Of course they don't understand everything.  They start understanding many things at around 6 months.  They understand what you're saying about many things before 12 months.  Many of them can talk before age 2.  Do they understand scripture?  No.  That's stupid and I didn't say that.  But I can see you really don't want to have a serious discussion, so I won't waste my time.     

In any event, you should go to church sometime, early, and visit the classes where these toddlers are.  You might learn something.    

You mean i might learn the ridiculous notion that people are born Muslim?   


You still fail to under the distinction between being raised and being born.

I'd agree with you about the raising part.  But to say Born, is again, silly.   

[240 is Back]

Doesn't matter to me either.  The only thing I would care about is dishonesty (if he lied about it). 

good call.

[Dos Equis]

I seriously doubt that kids even at the ages of grade school can really have a good understanding of the concept of a God at least to the same level of fear that the adults carry around with them

That the reason why the Catholics have confirmation at ~ 8th grade.  

I don't know Christians who walk around in fear.  That aside, kids are extremely smart.  They are able to grasp the concept of God very early in life.  A complete understanding and appreciation?  No.  But their basic understanding starts very early in life.  

As I mentioned, Catholics baptize babies.  

But groups like Baptists don't, because they believe a person should be at the "age of accountability" and make a conscious decision to get baptized.  

[OzmO]

Catholics don't baptize babies at birth.  Another important distinction. 

[Dos Equis]

Catholics don't baptize babies at birth.  Another important distinction. 

Yeah they wait a whole month.  lol.  Another distinction without a difference. 

[Straw Man]

I don't know Christians who walk around in fear.  That aside, kids are extremely smart.  They are able to grasp the concept of God very early in life.  A complete understanding and appreciation?  No.  But their basic understanding starts very early in life.  

As I mentioned, Catholics baptize babies.  

But groups like Baptists don't, because they believe a person should be at the "age of accountability" and make a conscious decision to get baptized.  

Catholics are aware that kids go through motions, pretend to do stuff to please their parents and really aren't capable of understanding or making such choice at a young age.  That's why they have confirmation at ~ 14.  At the point the child has to choose to be a member of the church.   You go to classes, have a sponsor and eventually get confirmed.  I remember because when I was this age, after going through all the classes I decided I didn't want to go through with confirmation and, as would be expected, my very Catholic parents would have none of that and I was pretty much forced to do it.....which I pointed out kind of defeats the whole purpose of the sacrament.

[OzmO]

Yeah they wait a whole month.  lol.  Another distinction without a difference. 

Some do, while others wait longer.   However the distinction stands, they are far from being born.

Other than that, it still doesn't make the baby anything other than a boy or girl.  Save, what every other people might think the baby is. 

[Dos Equis]

Catholics are aware that kids go through motions, pretend to do stuff to please their parents and really aren't capable of understanding or making such choice at a young age.  That's why they have confirmation at ~ 14.  At the point the child has to choose to be a member of the church.   You go to classes, have a sponsor and eventually get confirmed.  I remember because when I was this age, after going through all the classes I decided I didn't want to go through with confirmation and, as would be expected, my very Catholic parents would have none of that and I was pretty much forced to do it.....which I pointed out kind of defeats the whole purpose of the sacrament.

How old were you when you started going to classes? 

[Decker]

I'd venture to say he is since he never renounced it.

Enquiring minds want to know.

[Straw Man]

Yeah they wait a whole month.  lol.  Another distinction without a difference. 

Bum - you seem clueless about Catholics.  Unbaptized babies can never go to heaven with some might consider to be a HUGE difference.

This changed recently, but upbaptized babies had to go a a make believe place called Limbo.  

A few years ago there was talk that the church was going to "cancel" Limbo (and George Carlins joke about it was that he hoped all those babies got promoted to heaven and weren't just cut loose in space).  I don't know if this ever got done or even exactly how (magic wand perhaps?)  

[Dos Equis]

Bum - you seem clueless about Catholics.  Unbaptized babies can never go to heaven with some might consider to be a HUGE difference.

This changed recently, but upbaptized babies had to go a a make believe place called Limbo.  

A few years ago there was talk that the church was going to "cancel" Limbo (and George Carlins joke about it was that he hoped all those babies got promoted to heaven and weren't just cut loose in space).  I don't know if this ever got done or even exactly how (magic wand perhaps?)  

That's not why I mentioned the baptism of babies.  I was making the point that religious training/indoctrination starts at birth for many.  I specifically mentioned Catholics, because they baptize babies, send kids to mass, and can send them to Catholic school from Kindergarten through college.

I was not addressing whether any of that is appropriate, at what age a kid actually makes a commitment to become a practicing Catholic, whether a kid goes to heaven, etc.  Completely different subject(s).