Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!

[Overload]

come on vet you can do better than that

after i made that post i thought of about 5 things all that were contradictory in some way that were much better counter arguments than what youve got there.


  


anyway you wont find that 'rest the glands bullshit' anywhere else on the internet

When someone proves you wrong, just say "Thank you".

[DIVISION]

When someone proves you wrong, just say "Thank you".

He will not say "Thank you".

He will say "Fuck you".   



DIV

[Fatpanda]

perhaps the benefit from taking insulin is actually just the result of proper pre/post workout nutrition

The body produces an exact amount of insulin it needs to process an exact amount of sugar - NO MORE OR LESS OR COMA WOULD ENSUE.

when insulin is taken exogenously this glucose/insulin ration has to be closely monitored to avoid coma etc.

i simply do not see the benefit in talking exogenous insulin, when the body already does he job (and does it better).

[Captain Equipoise]

perhaps the benefit from taking insulin is actually just the result of proper pre/post workout nutrition

The body produces an exact amount of insulin it needs to process an exact amount of sugar - NO MORE OR LESS OR COMA WOULD ENSUE.

when insulin is taken exogenously this glucose/insulin ration has to be closely monitored to avoid coma etc.

i simply do not see the benefit in talking exogenous insulin, when the body already does he job (and does it better).

The whole benefit of taking insulin is to help maximize and go beyond the amount of nutrients your body (and it's naturaly insulin production) can shuttle into your muscles and cells.

[Fatpanda]

The whole benefit of taking insulin is to help maximize and go beyond the amount of nutrients your body (and it's naturaly insulin production) can shuttle into your muscles and cells.

yes but eating a candy bar produces just as much insulin or more naturally as is normally taken for bodybuilding purposes - wheres the maximization and going beyond there?

"A carb meal can easily raise insulin levels much higher than injecting insulin. For example, a candy bar with 44 grams of carbs, 3 grams of protein, and 11 grams of fat will raise insulin from a baseline level 5 mU/L to a peak of 42 mU/L in 30 min. It takes 180 min for insulin to return to baseline (1).

Contrast that with an injection of Actrapid Insulin (Novo GmbH, Germany), a humalog type of insulin. 10 IU injected sq into the thigh raises insulin from baseline to 20 mU/L after 90 min, with insulin decreasing to baseline after 300 min. (2)

The areas under the curves (AUC), representing the total bioavailable insulin are similar:

For the candy bar AUC was 3518 mU/L min

For actrapid AUC was 3796 mU/L min"

[abc123]

From what I've been told, above 12 IU is superphysiological.  That's why it's a waste of time to take 10IU PWO.  Your body can produce that much insulin on it's own.  Most Pros (or at least the ones I know) take 20IU to take advantage of the superphysiological effects.

[Fatpanda]

there is no muscle protein synthesis or breakdown advantage from insulin levels above 15microU/L. Which is only slightly above base levels of 5-10microU/L as shown in this study:

Branched-chain amino acids as fuels and anabolic signals in human muscle.Rennie MJ, Bohé J, Smith K, Wackerhage H, Greenhaff P.
Medical Sciences, University of Aberdeen, Aberdeen AB24 3FX, UK. michael.rennie@nottingham.ac.uk

During exercise, there is an increase in amino acid (AA) oxidation accompanied by a depression in whole-body protein synthesis and an increase in protein breakdown. Leucine oxidation increases in proportion to energy expenditure, but the total contribution of BCAA to fuel provision during exercise is minor and insufficient to increase dietary protein requirements. When investigating the effects of AA on the control of muscle protein synthesis (MPS), we showed that increased availability of mixed AAs caused a rise in human MPS to about the same extent as complete meals. Leucine alone (and to some extent other essential, but not nonessential, AAs) can stimulate MPS for a short period, suggesting that leucine acts as a signal as well as a substrate. MPS stimulation by infused AAs shows tachyphylaxis, returning to basal rates after 2 h, possibly explaining why chronically elevated leucine delivery does not elevate MPS clinically. Increased availability of essential amino acids (EAAs) results in dose-related responses of MPS, but, in elderly subjects, there is blunted sensitivity and responsiveness associated with decreased total RNA and mRNA for signaling proteins and signaling activity. Increases of MPS due to EAAs are associated with elevation of signaling activity in the mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR)/p70 ribosomal subunit S6 kinase eukaryotic initiation factor 4 binding protein 1 pathway, without requiring rises of plasma insulin availability above 10 microU/mL. However, at insulin of <5 microU/mL, AAs appear to stimulate MPS without increasing mTOR signaling. Further increasing availability of insulin to postprandial values increases signaling activity, but has no further effect on MPS.


 
so tell me again why people take exogenous insulin.

[Van_Bilderass]

From what I've been told, above 12 IU is superphysiological.  That's why it's a waste of time to take 10IU PWO.  Your body can produce that much insulin on it's own.  Most Pros (or at least the ones I know) take 20IU to take advantage of the superphysiological effects.

I doubt 12IU qualifies as supraphysiological, though I'm not sure. Does anyone have data on physiological insulin range? Vet?

This thought probably comes from sliding scale sample insulin protocols such as this:

[Vet]

I doubt 12IU qualifies as supraphysiological, though I'm not sure. Does anyone have data on physiological insulin range? Vet?

This thought probably comes from sliding scale sample insulin protocols such as this:

12 IU isn't supraphysiological.  as a matter of fact, its a completely different unit so comarison is very difficult.    Insulin doses depend on the body mass (both fat and muscle content) of the individual, the carbohydrate content of the meal, the activity level of the individual pre and post consumption, and the individuals relative insulin sensitivity.   I will take up to 20 units of Humalog before a meal sometimes.  Other times I take 6-10.   I'm a 300+ lb guy. 

To truely evaluate insulin, you need to measure serum insulin concentrations.  Its not the most reliable test because of the bodies counter regulatory hormones---ie a high cortisol levle will increase insulin levels with normal blood glucose levels resulting.   Is that person supraphsyiological? No, because their blood glucose levels are normal.   

Generally speaking, hypoglycemia in the presence of insulin levels greater than 250-300 pmol/L are considered "probably" abnormal.   Hypooglycemia with serum insulin levels 300-350 pmol/L are considered more confirmatory, but blood glucose and counter regulatory hormones MUST be considered.  You generally don't consider insulin levels if the patient isn't hypoglycemic. 

[StillTippin]

12 IU isn't supraphysiological.  as a matter of fact, its a completely different unit so comarison is very difficult.    Insulin doses depend on the body mass (both fat and muscle content) of the individual, the carbohydrate content of the meal, the activity level of the individual pre and post consumption, and the individuals relative insulin sensitivity.   I will take up to 20 units of Humalog before a meal sometimes.  Other times I take 6-10.   I'm a 300+ lb guy. 

To truely evaluate insulin, you need to measure serum insulin concentrations.  Its not the most reliable test because of the bodies counter regulatory hormones---ie a high cortisol levle will increase insulin levels with normal blood glucose levels resulting.   Is that person supraphsyiological? No, because their blood glucose levels are normal.   

Generally speaking, hypoglycemia in the presence of insulin levels greater than 250-300 pmol/L are considered "probably" abnormal.   Hypooglycemia with serum insulin levels 300-350 pmol/L are considered more confirmatory, but blood glucose and counter regulatory hormones MUST be considered.  You generally don't consider insulin levels if the patient isn't hypoglycemic. 

Wow Vet, didn't know you were that big!  Do you ever find that people treat you like a "meathead" before they realize what you do and how much knowledge you have?

[tbombz]

300lb 

[DIVISION]

Wow Vet, didn't know you were that big!  Do you ever find that people treat you like a "meathead" before they realize what you do and how much knowledge you have?

Vet is treated like a meathead except at his job.

I have a feeling even the animals he treats have a fear of him.   



DIV

[Rimbaud]

I would diffidently take my cats to see Vet. 

[DIVISION]

I would diffidently take my cats to see Vet. 

Your kittens would have a choice of Winstrol or EQ for injection.

Turn your kitten in to a puma!   



DIV

[Rimbaud]

Your kittens would have a choice of Winstrol or EQ for injection.

Turn your kitten in to a puma!   



DIV

Nah, the ones already crazy as hell anyway. He was nuetered at five years old & it took him two years to settle down. 

[DIVISION]

Nah, the ones already crazy as hell anyway. He was nuetered at five years old & it took him two years to settle down. 

If I ever get a cat it's going to be one of those bodytypes that looks like a miniature bear cub.

They're rare.......but I've seen them.

I will not buy a scraggly type cat.......

I want a cat that will dominate the other cats.   



DIV

[Rimbaud]

If I ever get a cat it's going to be one of those bodytypes that looks like a miniature bear cub.

They're rare.......but I've seen them.

I will not buy a scraggly type cat.......

I want a cat that will dominate the other cats.   



DIV

You'd love psycho then. 

[io856]

Just putting some thoughts out there...

Ok so the exogenous insulin used in bodybuilding tends to be at physiological levels. However it seems to be a current trend to use insulin before workouts. The body naturally decreases the release of insulin during exercise and increases the release of glucagon (Zinker, Mohr, Kelly, Namdaran, Bracy, Wasserman 1994). What effects arise from the higher amounts of insulin during training?

Zinker BA, Mohr T, Kelly P, Namdaran K, Bracy DP, Wasserman DH.
Exercise-induced fall in insulin: mechanism of action at the liver and effects on muscle glucose metabolism.
Am J Physiol. 1994 May;266(5 Pt 1):E683-9.

[StillTippin]

Just putting some thoughts out there...

Ok so the exogenous insulin used in bodybuilding tends to be at physiological levels. However it seems to be a current trend to use insulin before workouts. The body naturally decreases the release of insulin during exercise and increases the release of glucagon (Zinker, Mohr, Kelly, Namdaran, Bracy, Wasserman 1994). What effects arise from the higher amounts of insulin during training?

Zinker BA, Mohr T, Kelly P, Namdaran K, Bracy DP, Wasserman DH.
Exercise-induced fall in insulin: mechanism of action at the liver and effects on muscle glucose metabolism.
Am J Physiol. 1994 May;266(5 Pt 1):E683-9.

Maybe allows the muscle to be fed more during exercise rather than waiting until after the workout?

[DIVISION]

Ok so the exogenous insulin used in bodybuilding tends to be at physiological levels. However it seems to be a current trend to use insulin before workouts.

No.

Actually, the trend is to use exogenous insulin post-workout with meals.



DIV

[Emmortal]

No.

Actually, the trend is to use exogenous insulin post-workout with meals.



DIV

That's the standard way people have been using it, but the more advanced users have been using it pre-workout.

[DIVISION]

That's the standard way people have been using it, but the more advanced users have been using it pre-workout.

Perhaps this allows for faster absorbtion of carbs post-workout through some undetermined mechanism of action.

I believe Vanadyl Sulfate works this way on a much smaller scale.....



DIV

[busyB]

You'd love psycho then. 

Ok, bring Psycho when you come to AZ and we will put him up against my cat, JaMarcus McFadden!

7-8 lbs, lean, muscular, not declawed and on a high protein diet! 

It's like Michael Vick all over again....

DISCLAIMER: No cats were hurt during this post 

[Rimbaud]

Ok, bring Psycho when you come to AZ and we will put him up against my cat, JaMarcus McFadden!

7-8 lbs, lean, muscular, not declawed and on a high protein diet! 

It's like Michael Vick all over again....

DISCLAIMER: No cats were hurt during this post 

Note: Psycho...14 pound alley cat with four wheel drive (not declawed). Know for fighting around the neighborhood until he was turned into a house cat by yours truly.

[Vet]

Perhaps this allows for faster absorbtion of carbs post-workout through some undetermined mechanism of action.

I believe Vanadyl Sulfate works this way on a much smaller scale.....



DIV

its going to be more likely to induce hypyglycemia, which, under specific conditions will result in increased amino acid uptake and GH release.  The thing is you have to time everything absolutely right.  There are too many variables involved for me to think that this is something that could be reliably reproduced without negative consequences.   The counterregulatory hormone release (cortisol, epinephrine, etc) that the body has to be considered.