Insulin? Risk vs. Reward?!

[tbombz]

I would like to see some pics of some of these guys on here running all this GH, thyroid, anabolics and insulin. I hope they at least resemble top level bodybuilders after all that. I mean it would be pretty sad to just look average and have to take all that shit.

do you believe its possible for somebody to use all those substances, eat decently well, train regularly, and still look average ?

[Rimbaud]

do you believe its possible for somebody to use all those substances, eat decently well, train regularly, and still look average ?

Of course it's possible.

[Emmortal]

do you believe its possible for somebody to use all those substances, eat decently well, train regularly, and still look average ?

It certainly is.  I know a few guys who would put anyone on this board to shame with the dosages they run and you wouldn't even know the took anything at all by looking at them.

[Rimbaud]

It certainly is.  I know a few guys who would put anyone on this board to shame with the dosages they run and you wouldn't even know the took anything at all by looking at them.

I always feel bad for those guys.

[tbombz]

okay oKay let me re phrase


 taking all LEGIT  substances.

lol

[io856]

It certainly is.  I know a few guys who would put anyone on this board to shame with the dosages they run and you wouldn't even know the took anything at all by looking at them.

maybe a few of the items they use are fake or underdosed?

theres plenty of that out there...
just a thought

[Rimbaud]

okay oKay let me re phrase


 taking all LEGIT  substances.

lol

Yes, it's possible. Some people just don't have the genetics to respond well.

[The ChemistV2]

do you believe its possible for somebody to use all those substances, eat decently well, train regularly, and still look average ?

By average, I mean an average gym rat, not an average untrained guy. Let's put it this way, I know some guys at my gym that are on some serious stuff and they don't really look any better than me at 45 and natural.  I have pics in my 20's when I was only taking 6 winstrol tabs a day and I look better than some of these guys that say they're on Gh and insulin, etc. The point is if you're going to risk causing some eventual, possibly permanent endocrine imbalances, you better look pretty phenomenol in return or else it's not really worth it.

[Emmortal]

maybe a few of the items they use are fake or underdosed?

theres plenty of that out there...
just a thought

Quite the possibility, I'm pretty sure they aren't running HG gear.  I also just don't think they respond well.  I'm not really close with them but they talk to be about their cycles and I was pretty blown away heh.  I also think they probably aren't really dedicated to their diet and training as they should be.  All of which are deciding factors.

[abc123]

Im not knocking anyone that uses it...but some of these horror stories sway me from ever using it..besides my goal in life is not to be a professional bodybuilder...its not worth the risk for me...rather take some abombs and test...how has it effected you health wise from using insulin?

Personally, I think A bombs are much worse for your health than insulin.  Not even close...  Now, if you overdose on insulin that's another story...

[abc123]

BTW, since I started insulin & GH, I've gotten much better overall results than ever before, all while using lower doses of anabolics.   Could I be 20 lbs heavier?  Sure, easy, but I'm not willing to up the anabolics to crazy doses, or even above 500 mg of Test EW for that matter.  In reality, I will probably lower my dose of anabolics soon so I don't outgrow all of my business clothes. 

Current: 218 lbs and ~ 7-8% bf @ 6'

I just don't have the desire to be much bigger, but with the way I use insulin I stay lean all year long.

[io856]

By average, I mean an average gym rat, not an average untrained guy. Let's put it this way, I know some guys at my gym that are on some serious stuff and they don't really look any better than me at 45 and natural.  I have pics in my 20's when I was only taking 6 winstrol tabs a day and I look better than some of these guys that say they're on Gh and insulin, etc. The point is if you're going to risk causing some eventual, possibly permanent endocrine imbalances, you better look pretty phenomenol in return or else it's not really worth it.

Who is to say what is worth it?

Ok,  so you say they might have crappy genetics. Perhaps their development achieved from abuse of certain drugs is far more satisfying to them than maybe to you. Just because they may not compare well to a top level bodybuilder does not necessarily mean they are not happy with their results. Who is to say that drug excesses should be accompanied by a top level physique?

[abc123]

Who is to say what is worth it?

Ok,  so you say they might have crappy genetics. Perhaps their development achieved from abuse of certain drugs is far more satisfying to them than maybe to you. Just because they may not compare well to a top level bodybuilder does not necessarily mean they are not happy with their results. Who is to say that drug excesses should be accompanied by a top level physique?

Yeah, I'm married now and off the market, but I was always very satisfied with getting a lot of pussy rather than being huge.  Who cares about having a top level physique?

[Vet]

Come on now, he was talking from an athlete standpoint. What he said wasn't incorrect. I mean, do you disagree that it primarily blunts protein breakdown while it doesn't increase protein synthesis (until extreme concentrations are achieved*)? From an athlete standpoint.



Take a look at this. See the "is insulin a performance enhancing drug?" section. Do you disagree with what is written there?

http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/cgi/reprint/170/1/13

You haven't really answered the question whether you think exogenous insulin can be anabolic (directly or indirectly) beyond what you can achieve through dietary manipulation. What do you say? Although I haven't been impressed with it myself I'm sure it does help an athlete in certain situations, to a certain degree. All the mechanisms may not have been clearly elucidated but it's been in use long enough to not be totally a placebo drug (has been used for decades by athletes, for example Russian Olympic athletes**).

*
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/274/6/E1067

**
http://www.sportsci.org/encyc/drafts/Pharmacology.doc

The problem I've got with insulin is the counterregulatory hormones that everyone seems to forget so easily.    Will it help an athlete who has induced subclinical diabetes by taking GH and high dose androgens---absolutely because of the drug induced insulin resistant state they have put themselve into.  


Will it help a natural athelete?    No, I dont' think it will anymore than natural insulin manipulation.  


Did that answer your question?

[io856]

Theres so many guys out there with unbelievable physiques who are nameless and faceless. BayGBM posts all these photos of guys he finds attractive who could easily place at a pro show. Yet we don't even know their name or anything about them for that matter. Sevastase posts many pictures of phenomenal physiques from Europe we know nothing about. There are many many great top level physiques out there which have yielded minimal rewards in the greater scheme of things.  This suggests to me that many of the benefits of bodybuilding are not extrinsic but rather intrinsic. I doubt these faceless and nameless people were dieting, training and spending thousands on drugs just for a $100 photoshoot for gay material.

So once again I question the "need" for a top level physique from an individual using high doses and an array of substances?

[tbombz]

that right, there are plenty of gus aroun the globe who could compete o the olympia stage if they chose to, but dont 9for whatever reason).

take a look at that massive white guy from south africa.

[The ChemistV2]

Who is to say what is worth it?

Ok,  so you say they might have crappy genetics. Perhaps their development achieved from abuse of certain drugs is far more satisfying to them than maybe to you. Just because they may not compare well to a top level bodybuilder does not necessarily mean they are not happy with their results. Who is to say that drug excesses should be accompanied by a top level physique?

Well, I've been in this game a while. Been training since I was 13 years old. I know guys personally, and I see them on the forums ..late 20's, whining that they no longer produce decent test levels, need to go on HRT for life. Now you'll see guys that will abuse thyroid drugs, and will eventually have some serious imbalances there. It is only logical, if you know how the endocrine system works, that long term insulin use will eventually prevent the pancreas from secreting optimum insulin levels. If you think being on insulin for life is so great, maybe you don't know diabetics that have gone blind or lost limbs. Replace any hormone in your body and eventually the body produces less of it's own. Insulin is no exception. Imagining having all these problems and all you achieved out of it was a mediocre physique? But again, as you said, for some people (usually those with deep rooted insecurities) it may be all worth it.

[Vet]

Vet, please don't go.  We value your opinion.  Just don't respond to the trolls. 

Yeah, I know stupid is as stupid does.  



I also know that little fuck knows he rubs me the wrong way.  He reminds me of the loudmouthed geeky kid in a highschool science class.  Willing to argue about anything, but never really making sense.  

[Emmortal]

The problem I've got with insulin is the counterregulatory hormones.    Will it help an athlete who has induced subclinical diabetes by taking GH and high dose androgens---absolutely because of the drug induced insulin resistant state they have put themselve into. 

This was pretty much the sole reason for my undertaking of insulin use, high doses of GH pretty much need insulin to counteract the subclinical diabetes issue.

[Vet]

I would like to see some pics of some of these guys on here running all this GH, thyroid, anabolics and insulin. I hope they at least resemble top level bodybuilders after all that. I mean it would be pretty sad to just look average and have to take all that shit.

I would too.  

[Vet]

Well, I've been in this game a while. Been training since I was 13 years old. I know guys personally, and I see them on the forums ..late 20's, whining that they no longer produce decent test levels, need to go on HRT for life. Now you'll see guys that will abuse thyroid drugs, and will eventually have some serious imbalances there. It is only logical, if you know how the endocrine system works, that long term insulin use will eventually prevent the pancreas from secreting optimum insulin levels. If you think being on insulin for life is so great, maybe you don't know diabetics that have gone blind or lost limbs. Replace any hormone in your body and eventually the body produces less of it's own. Insulin is no exception. Imagining having all these problems and all you achieved out of it was a mediocre physique? But again, as you said, for some people (usually those with deep rooted insecurities) it may be all worth it.

I see your logic, but I don't think it would work that way with out a genetic predisposition.  They are much more likely to induce TypeII diabetes from GH abuse.   

[Vet]

I always feel bad for those guys.

I don't.

 The ones I feel sorry for are the ones who cannot fathom how a person taking all those drugs won't have an olympia level physique.  They miss the point completely that different people respond differently to drugs of all types, anabolics included.  They also miss the point of how important mindset, training, and diet are.   

[tbombz]

Replace any hormone in your body and eventually the body produces less of it's own.

not true. in fact only one hormone works that way and its testosterone.

[Emmortal]

I see your logic, but I don't think it would work that way with out a genetic predisposition.  They are much more likely to induce TypeII diabetes from GH abuse.   

Thing is though I haven't heard of this actually happening and I know a few guys who've been running GH since the mid 90's.  I'm not saying it's not a possibility because I believe it to be, but I just haven't heard/seen it happen.

[The ChemistV2]

I see your logic, but I don't think it would work that way with out a genetic predisposition.  They are much more likely to induce TypeII diabetes from GH abuse.   

Well, I respect your opinion on this, so I'll ask you this. Do you feel if a non-diabetic were to chronically take large doses of insulin for a long period of time and then stopped, there would be no effect on their own natural insulin production?