Author Topic: My solution for the auto companies.................  (Read 5725 times)

Decker

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #75 on: November 12, 2008, 02:42:16 PM »
While some Unions have refused to change and hindered progress in recent times, dont forget that child labor laws, weekends, paid vacations, health insurance, equal pay for woman and minorities, workers safety, pay grade scales, pension funds, 401k, social security and paid maternity all exist because Unions fought and won them.

  There is nothing wrong with making money but it shouldn't be the sole motivation for living.  Taking care of people, people in your community and country is also part of being a decent human being on this planet.
  Take a look back at life in America before Unions came in and you'll see it wasn't a great place to be if you weren't wealthy.  Unchecked greed and unregulated capitalism is what led us into the great depression.  Unions and oversight are what won us WW2 and made us the greatest country in the world afterwords.

  My belief is that if you are a smart business owner there won't be a need for unions because you'll take care of your people on your own.

 Are some Unions corrupt = yes
Should Union laws be reevaluated = yes

But don't forget that businesses are granted an incorporation status because 'We the People' allow them to business on American soil.  Thats the law and it gives the people the right to decide how we let those companies do business.

There's a 'give an take' but trust me, overall...you dont want to live in a world without Union protection.

Well stated.

How quickly people forget the hardfought gains of our union progenitors.

Do we forget so quickly who was cleaning up? Unions have been declining and executive comp has exploded exponentially.

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #76 on: November 12, 2008, 02:52:49 PM »
Whatever happened to letting shitty companies just fail? Why should tax payers bail out companies who make a suckass product or run their business to the ground?

So a shitty company goes out of business... SO WHAT? A better more efficent one will take its place.

This bailout mentality is going to ruin us....

Hereford

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #77 on: November 12, 2008, 03:28:36 PM »
While some Unions have refused to change and hindered progress in recent times, dont forget that child labor laws, weekends, paid vacations, health insurance, equal pay for woman and minorities, workers safety, pay grade scales, pension funds, 401k, social security and paid maternity all exist because Unions fought and won them.

  There is nothing wrong with making money but it shouldn't be the sole motivation for living.  Taking care of people, people in your community and country is also part of being a decent human being on this planet.
  Take a look back at life in America before Unions came in and you'll see it wasn't a great place to be if you weren't wealthy.  Unchecked greed and unregulated capitalism is what led us into the great depression.  Unions and oversight are what won us WW2 and made us the greatest country in the world afterwords.

  My belief is that if you are a smart business owner there won't be a need for unions because you'll take care of your people on your own.

 Are some Unions corrupt = yes
Should Union laws be reevaluated = yes

But don't forget that businesses are granted an incorporation status because 'We the People' allow them to business on American soil.  Thats the law and it gives the people the right to decide how we let those companies do business.

There's a 'give an take' but trust me, overall...you dont want to live in a world without Union protection.


100% HORSESHIT!!!

Don't ever let a union shill tell you that the unions are responsible for all the worker protection laws in the US. Union efforts are meant to protect nobody but the unions.

Unions are responsible for the 401K. HAHAHAHAHA. Get the fuuck outta here with that BS.

The only thing unions do is provide job security for the under and unskilled, and drive up prices and lessen quality for the 99% of society who aren't in that particular labor group.

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #78 on: November 12, 2008, 06:41:42 PM »
100% HORSESHIT!!!

Don't ever let a union shill tell you that the unions are responsible for all the worker protection laws in the US. Union efforts are meant to protect nobody but the unions.

Unions are responsible for the 401K. HAHAHAHAHA. Get the fuuck outta here with that BS.

The only thing unions do is provide job security for the under and unskilled, and drive up prices and lessen quality for the 99% of society who aren't in that particular labor group.

Not true my friend. 

"Supporters of Unions, such as the ACTU or Australian Labor Party, often credit trade unions with leading the labor movement in the early 20th century, which generally sought to end child labor practices, improve worker safety, increase wages for both union workers, raise the entire society's standard of living, reduce the hours in a work week, provide public education for children, and bring of other benefits to working class families. [6]"

Quoted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unions

There is no perfect system (except anarchism) but the right to organize the people is the ONLY thing keeping the tyranny at bay.  Popular movements and demonstrations are the only check against authoritarianism.  History proves my point.

tu_holmes

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #79 on: November 12, 2008, 06:54:11 PM »
Unions were fine back in the late 1800s and early 20th century.

Today, unions are just money making schemes... They take a portion of an employees salary and give them nothing... They are a business, nothing more.

In today's global economy, a large corporation leaves the US because of the unions... Unions are worthless now... The labor laws protect the people, not the unions.

Unions are crap...

Hereford

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #80 on: November 12, 2008, 07:34:16 PM »
Not true my friend. 

"Supporters of Unions, such as the ACTU or Australian Labor Party, often credit trade unions with leading the labor movement in the early 20th century, which generally sought to end child labor practices, improve worker safety, increase wages for both union workers, raise the entire society's standard of living, reduce the hours in a work week, provide public education for children, and bring of other benefits to working class families. [6]"

Quoted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unions

There is no perfect system (except anarchism) but the right to organize the people is the ONLY thing keeping the tyranny at bay.  Popular movements and demonstrations are the only check against authoritarianism.  History proves my point.

Wow. You quoted the unions in support of the unions.

So when some highschool dropout is making more than a college professor to screw lug nuts onto a car, and he feels like $60 an hour isn't good enough, he is justified in going on strike to get another 8% per year eh?

Hahaha Unions raise the standard of living for everyone... what a bunch of bullshit.

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #81 on: November 12, 2008, 07:40:32 PM »
Not sure if it is already in the thread but I heard something this morning that if the government stepped in, in any way, that they could restructure the union deals.

The unions, government safety restrictions, and poorly made vehicles will continue to haunt the US auto industry.
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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #82 on: November 12, 2008, 07:48:26 PM »
If GM couldn't save money during a time they were recording their biggest sales then they are doomed to fail.

tu_holmes

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #83 on: November 12, 2008, 07:49:08 PM »
If GM couldn't save money during a time they were recording their biggest sales then they are doomed to fail.

Xs 2

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #84 on: November 12, 2008, 07:56:56 PM »
Not sure if it is already in the thread but I heard something this morning that if the government stepped in, in any way, that they could restructure the union deals.

The unions, government safety restrictions, and poorly made vehicles will continue to haunt the US auto industry.

The Democrats are in the unions hip pockets. Dems will never cross organized labor.

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #85 on: November 12, 2008, 08:05:34 PM »
The Democrats are in the unions hip pockets. Dems will never cross organized labor.
What's nice is that at present the Republicans are not biting on the auto bail out.  Once the ball is handed to Obama and Co. then it is on them to make the decision.  They will surely blame the Republicans but in the end the people of the country and more specifically those employed by the auto industry will expect Obama to make the "change".
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tu_holmes

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #86 on: November 12, 2008, 08:18:03 PM »
What's nice is that at present the Republicans are not biting on the auto bail out.  Once the ball is handed to Obama and Co. then it is on them to make the decision.  They will surely blame the Republicans but in the end the people of the country and more specifically those employed by the auto industry will expect Obama to make the "change".

I don't see why... I thought the bank bailout was crap and I think bailing out the Detroit would be ridiculous.

That would be a mistake for Obama to bail them out.

Question... Why does everyone believe the dems will start bailing out people more than the Republicans did.

I still think McCain was the reason the bank bailout went from 700 to 850 billion.

danielson

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #87 on: November 12, 2008, 08:21:18 PM »
I don't see why... I thought the bank bailout was crap and I think bailing out the Detroit would be ridiculous.



I am all for bailing out Detroit!
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tu_holmes

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #88 on: November 12, 2008, 08:24:31 PM »
I am all for bailing out Detroit!

Well, we can bail you out dude... :D

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #89 on: November 12, 2008, 08:25:05 PM »
I don't see why... I thought the bank bailout was crap and I think bailing out the Detroit would be ridiculous.

That would be a mistake for Obama to bail them out.

Question... Why does everyone believe the dems will start bailing out people more than the Republicans did.

I still think McCain was the reason the bank bailout went from 700 to 850 billion.
No, what I'm saying is that the Republicans are going to focus on other issues and let Obama decide what to do.  Never said that Obama will bail them out.
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danielson

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #90 on: November 12, 2008, 08:25:39 PM »
Well, we can bail you out dude... :D

Crime is going up, police forces are being cut in half. Life sucks around here and I am 30 miles north of that hellhole Detroit.
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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #91 on: November 12, 2008, 08:37:48 PM »
Ok.
All of you who opposes a bailout of the car industry.
Knowing that 1 in every 10 jobs in USA is affected by this industry.

What would you suggest to be done instead?

Because it's easy to stand on the side and just thrash any suggestion. What should be done instead?

I can state that I definitely don't like the bailout idea. But it seems like there is no system for re-schooling these employees, no system to use their know-how in other industries.

But I think a good start could be to launch a huge infrastructure program, like China did a few days ago.
It would create jobs and fix the lagging infrastructure, eg collapsing bridges.   
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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #92 on: November 12, 2008, 09:26:24 PM »
Ok.
All of you who opposes a bailout of the car industry.
Knowing that 1 in every 10 jobs in USA is affected by this industry.



Where did you get that statistic and at what levels are these other jobs affected? Do these other jobs collpase if the big 3 collapse? Do they lose some money but capable of adapting? Are 1 in 10 jobs strictly car realated in the States?

JBGRAY

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #93 on: November 12, 2008, 10:51:51 PM »
Legacy costs, lack of US economic protectionist policies, Unions(partly to blame), and general public perception on the overall quality of US autos are all to blame.

The "Big 3" are still paying tons in health insurance to former and retired workers.  Those health insurance costs are hugely more expensive than what the Japanese and European work force has to pay.  In accordance with Union demands on providing healthcare to the Big 3's workforce, costs are huge in this area alone.

Most other nations have protectionist policies.  We don't.  Try to sell an American car overseas and it is immediately slapped with a huge tariff, whereas we get flooded with imports. The Japanese and European brands even get to have assembling plants here with a non-unionized workforce and no tariffs.  To counter this, the Big 3 are forced more and more to outsource parts and factories to places such as Mexico and China.  Why bail out the struggling US companies when our government legislates unfair and uneven competition designed to kill the US automotive industry?  Sounds like a huge waste of money.

Unions have quickly been getting dismantled the last few decades.  There is less true Union membership nowadays than there have ever has before.  Their power is greatly diminished.  While I think a few of their demands are a bit excessive today, one only has to look overseas to the slave-labor abused factory workers in China what happens without adequate worker protection. 

American cars have really sharpened up in comparison with their Japanese and European counterparts.  Fuel efficiency has greatly increased across the board and can very much compare when comparing similar models to its competition.  The days of '70s Chrysler and the "truck interior" Corvette days are very much over.  The amount of cheaply-produced Chinese parts within many of their models does greatly impact overall quality, however.

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #94 on: November 12, 2008, 10:52:42 PM »
No, what I'm saying is that the Republicans are going to focus on other issues and let Obama decide what to do.  Never said that Obama will bail them out.
Ok, just checking..

Crime is going up, police forces are being cut in half. Life sucks around here and I am 30 miles north of that hellhole Detroit.

It's really a sad state of affairs isn't it?

Pittsburgh had many of the same issues when the steel industry fell apart.... Fucking sucks.

Hereford

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #95 on: November 12, 2008, 11:24:27 PM »
Legacy costs, lack of US economic protectionist policies, Unions(partly to blame), and general public perception on the overall quality of US autos are all to blame.

The "Big 3" are still paying tons in health insurance to former and retired workers.  Those health insurance costs are hugely more expensive than what the Japanese and European work force has to pay.  In accordance with Union demands on providing healthcare to the Big 3's workforce, costs are huge in this area alone.

Most other nations have protectionist policies.  We don't.  Try to sell an American car overseas and it is immediately slapped with a huge tariff, whereas we get flooded with imports. The Japanese and European brands even get to have assembling plants here with a non-unionized workforce and no tariffs.  To counter this, the Big 3 are forced more and more to outsource parts and factories to places such as Mexico and China.  Why bail out the struggling US companies when our government legislates unfair and uneven competition designed to kill the US automotive industry?  Sounds like a huge waste of money.

Unions have quickly been getting dismantled the last few decades.  There is less true Union membership nowadays than there have ever has before.  Their power is greatly diminished.  While I think a few of their demands are a bit excessive today, one only has to look overseas to the slave-labor abused factory workers in China what happens without adequate worker protection. 

American cars have really sharpened up in comparison with their Japanese and European counterparts.  Fuel efficiency has greatly increased across the board and can very much compare when comparing similar models to its competition.  The days of '70s Chrysler and the "truck interior" Corvette days are very much over.  The amount of cheaply-produced Chinese parts within many of their models does greatly impact overall quality, however.

So wtf? You propose we should 'slap huge tariffs' on imported cars?

The ONLY reason anyone buys American cars nowdays is because they are cheaper than Euro and Jap counterparts.

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #96 on: November 13, 2008, 03:20:47 AM »
The stuff about the US cars getting slapped with huge tariffs here in Europe just isn't true.
It's the environmental tariffs that has been a problem.
But eg the PT Cruiser, which initially created a stir for its shape, is considered trash because its low quality, both driving and longevity.
One of the biggest US successes the last 10 years in Europe has been the Ford Ka. Small car, very popular in the mediterranean countries. 
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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #97 on: November 13, 2008, 04:10:05 AM »
True, lol at these guys who buy a NEW car every 5 years, the thing literally decreases 50% in value. Epic self ownage.

The best thing to do is buy a car from a rental dealership (Hertz) because it's depreciated, yet still in great condition and you'd have your pick of mileage, color, etc.....

The best value for what you'd spend on late model car.

I paid 10K cash for a '98 Chevy Monte Carlo back in '99 and it had about 10K miles on it......great condition.

I still have that car, no problems and it's the best investment I ever made.

I'll do the same thing when I buy my next car.....

There's nothing like paying cash.   ;D



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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #98 on: November 13, 2008, 05:45:54 AM »
The auto industry is a disaster.  I've lived in southeast Michigan my whole life.  My father was with GM hydraulics my whole childhood.  I have more that a few drunk relatives that make near six figures on their 30th+ year at one of the big three. 

My buddy owns a union employed steel company.  He pays $78 per hour, per person for union employees.  $78 an hour for people that barely graduated high school and live on vicodin and pocket vodka lunches. 

There are people begging for jobs in Michigan.  He could hire out full staffs with an hour notice at $15 an hour.....the problem is, running non-union crews in a union guarded business is impossible.  The entire industry will make it their goal to bury your business.


I had a friend in high school that would work 110 hr weeks for Ford all summer.  His father was an engineer there. 
110 hour work weeks....the kid didn't put in 110 hours of "work" the entire summer.  He wouldn't even be near the plant 110 hours a week.

My father is still in the Auto industry.  He's in sales now and the stories you hear about the auto plants is mind boggling. 

The stuff they find when a plant closes is ridiculous. 
Janitor closets decked out with beds, TV's, mini fridges....

Tool shelves with hidden sleeping shelves.

There's a story everyone loves to tell about a "hidden room" that was found in one of the plants....the plants are so huge that there are essentially an unlimited amount of places to "hide."  One of these rooms supposedly stored a mountain of empty beer cans and bottles that amounted to around $1,000 in return deposits......


The auto industry as it stands in America can't survive.  You can't pay non-skilled labor that kind of money and expect a profit.  You certainly can't run the kind of profit margin they run when it's nearly impossible to sell your cars in foreign markets. 
Try to buy an American car in Japan and see what it costs you after the import tax mark-ups. 
Buy Japanese in America and you get a better car with better gas mileage and PAY LESS for it. 
You can't afford an American car in the overseas markets. 

They foreign markets protect their own industries.  I'm not necessarily for upping tax fees on foreign cars, but with the situation as it stands, something has to change. 



The big 3 bring in an insane amount of money.  The cash flow with them is absurd.  It's always on the radio talk shows here....it's amazing the money that flows in and out.  They make A LOT of money, but because they spend SO MUCH money, the profit margin is nothing. 

They'll never be a good investment because of that profit margin.  There is such a small margin of possible profit that the difference between a great quarter and a quarter of billions in losses is just a small percentage change. 

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Re: My solution for the auto companies.................
« Reply #99 on: November 13, 2008, 05:58:17 AM »
4) start building more efficient, reliable cars that get better gas mileage, there's a reason why Toyota is killing the American car companies

Would you go against international patent laws and infringe on patents owned by Toyota, Honda and Nissan?
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