Is there anything original in the Jesus story?

[MCWAY]

Well then, by that definition Jebus wasn't crucified either...

There is no way to know if he died on the cross or was killed by Longinus' spear... never know, he could have just slipped into a coma when the spear put him out of his misery.

Nice try. But trying to cast dobut on the scenario to save your behind, now that your claims have repeatedly been shown to be FALSE won't cut it.

As for your futile attempt to flip the script, regarding the spear wound Jesus received, as usual, that is but another limp-wristed skeptic claim, long refuted and sent to the scrap heap.

The reason Jesus’ legs weren’t broken, as were those of the men crucified with them, is because He’d died. Of course, there was one skeptic who thought differently. That would be the one who jabbed Him with the spear, causing “blood and water” to come out.

The Piercing of His Side

In the case of our Lord, the Gospel of John describes the piercing of Christ's side and the overflowing of blood and water [John 19:34]. Many have assumed that the passage referred to the piercing of the abdomen, and that the water resulted from puncturing the bladder or the presence of ascites (intra-abdominal fluid that can collect as a result of stress or disease). However, a study of the Greek word for "side" used in the passage is pleura, which clearly refers to the chest rather than the abdomen. Our lungs and the walls of the internal chest cavity are lined with a thin, clear membrane called the "pleural lining."  Thus it seems probable that the spear wound was to one side of the chest wall.  Tradition has depicted the right side, although John is not specific. Medically speaking, this would support the idea of the flow "blood and water ..." from Christ's side since the spear would first puncture the lung and allow the accumulated water, probably due to pulmonary edema, to flow out.

In congestive heart failure caused by stress, the right side of the heart enlarges and results in fluid collecting in the lungs (pulmonary edema) and pericardium.  As the spear continued through the lung, it would next puncture the pericardium (sac around the heart) allowing more "water" to drain out of the wound.  Finally, the enlarged right ventricle of the heart would be punctured causing a large flow of blood from the wound.  Thus the water probably represents clear fluid from the lungs and pericardial sac, and the blood is from a direct puncture of the right side of the heart. - Dr. Dan Brown, M.D., "A Doctor's View of the Crucifixion".

Death by crucifixion is essentially death by asphyxiation; you don’t get down off the cross alive. Plus, there’s the nature of the spear wound, entering the chest cavity and piercing the heart. In short, it would have killed Him, if He weren't already dead" -  Dr. Gary Habermas, from "Who is This Jesus? Is He Risen?"

You've taken a leap into absurdity here McWay... are you really insisting that had Jesus fallen off the cross and died hitting the ground that he then wasn't crucified?

WHAT!!!??? Now, you're resorting to concocting scenarios, that nobody has even mentioned to hide the fact that you STILL CANNOT PRODUCE the specific references to this "mystery religion" that claims Attis was crucified.

So, what’s the holdup? You find plenty of time to blubber, but when it’s time produce the references, it’s excuse, whine, complaint, excuse, whine, complaint, ad infinitum. Even by your standards, this is pathetic.

And, by definition, Jesus WAS crucified, because, boy genius, that’s what crucifixion means; you DIE on a cross. Jesus stayed on the cross, until it was confirmed that He was dead. He wasn’t drowned; He wasn’t castrated (by His own hand or by anyone else); He wasn’t set on fire, etc. THE CROSS WAS THE INSTRUMENT OF HIS DEATH.

Was a cross (or even a tree) the instrument used in Attis’ death? NO!!
Was a cross (or even a tree) the instrument used in Osiris’ death? NO!!
Was a cross (or even a tree) the instrument used in Dionysus death? NO!!

And the list goes on!!!

You quote from dictionaries then decide to use only one of the listed definitions, that's weak?

The Luke

I'm sorry!! Which one of those defintions of crucifixion mentioned something about chopping off your nuts or drowning to dying on a cross again?

One more time!! Where are these "mystery religion" accounts that specifically state that Attis died via crucifixion? Tick, tock, tick, tock.......

[big L dawg]

attis,osiris,dionysus,jesus,alah.there all man made.

[MCWAY]

An Luke, MCWAY is one of those faith heads who practices 'belief at all costs'; he would never even consider a single shred of anything that would run counter to his fundamentalist faith as it would be antithetical to his stance that the entire Bible is factual in all its details. I used to have these sparing matches with him all the time and he has been annihilated by other people with doctoral degrees in the field of ancient history and still did not concede defeat. He is the ultimate faith head.

As usual, Deicide, you suffer from a chronic case of revision history.

You did have these "sparing matches" with me. But, what you neglected to tell Luke is that every time the inaccuracies of your claims were exposed, you ran like a scalded dog to a site loaded with atheists, begging them for help, because you couldn't stand up to me by yourself. Unable to come up with any statements of your own, you kept cutting and pasting my posts here, taking them to that site, and using someone else's posts to make up for your own inadequacies.

Since that bastion of bravery failed to come here and address me directly (though he wasted little time, calling me names, despite not engaging with me directly), I went there and, as expected, for all his cursing, swearing, and shouting, his assertions were every bit as empty as yours. And, as usual, when the folks there with doctoral degrees in ancient history were confronted with material from those with comparable credentials, the result was more swearing, cursing, and name-calling (with precious little substance, afterward).

But, what else is new?

[The Luke]

McWay,


No one is going to argue with you at this point... you won't accept ANY evidence outside the four measly canonical gospels. So you've tied your opponents hands by dismissing any and all evidence outside the Gospel of Mark and the three other gospels known to be rewrites of Mark.

That's akin to asking for evidence that Harry Potter is a fictional character, when you'll only accept quotes from the Harry Potter Books themselves as evidence.


You'd win more people over (notice NO ONE except your fellow delusionist Loco has agreed with you) if you didn't so selectively pick which points to counter...
-you haven't addressed the obvious astronomical metaphors and imagery
-you haven't addressed any of the archaeological evidence (Bethlehem not existing etc)
-you haven't addressed the conformity of the Jesus myth with the long established dying/resurrected godman blueprint


You might have a point that Jesus died on the cross whereas Attis was nailed to a tree AFTER he bled to death... but the parallels can't be dismissed.


The Luke

[MCWAY]

McWay,


No one is going to argue with you at this point... you won't accept ANY evidence outside the four measly canonical gospels. So you've tied your opponents hands by dismissing any and all evidence outside the Gospel of Mark and the three other gospels known to be rewrites of Mark.

That's akin to asking for evidence that Harry Potter is a fictional character, when you'll only accept quotes from the Harry Potter Books themselves as evidence.

Ummmm.....genius. Evidence outside the canonical Gospels has been the very thing I've used to tear your measley arguments apart. Or, did you forget about the numerous references to the very mystery religions, about which you keep clucking that state, in no uncertain terms, how these figures (Attis, Osiris, Dionysus, etc.) died.

You'd win more people over (notice NO ONE except your fellow delusionist Loco has agreed with you) if you didn't so selectively pick which points to counter...
-you haven't addressed the obvious astronomical metaphors and imagery

What metaphors? You tried foolishing fusing the Jesus account with some astronomical mess. But, when asked to specifically show where the Gospels match that (which you claimed you could do), you came up with ZIP!!

As yet another friendly reminder, the Gospels give no indication of "three kings" visiting Jesus at His birth on Dec. 25, which was your assertion about the astronomical metaphors from the start. Not only do the accounts of Jesus not match this astrological foolishness, the accounts OF THE OTHER FIGURES DO NOT MATCH.

This isn't an issue of winning people over (as if the Necrosis, Deicide, and L Dawg, long known to be atheists/agnostics here, needed any help from your ramblings to agree with you). It's about whether the account of Jesus Christ was formed from these other religions. Based on the data from the Jesus account AND THOSE of these other figures, it is clear that they DO NOT match, not in form, not in function, nor in purpose.

-you haven't addressed any of the archaeological evidence (Bethlehem not existing etc)

There goes that selective memory again. I do recall stating that Bethlehem had been in existence at least ONE THOUSAND YEARS, before Jesus was even born. In fact, I gave as an example the account of Ruth, in which she and her mother-in-law return to Bethlehem, in order for Naomi to find other memories of her family. Naomi looks for a male member of her family to redeem Ruth and become her new husband, as a reward for her standing by her, after the death of her husband and son (Ruth's first husband). Unless you forgot (or never knew in the first place) Ruth is the GRANDMOTHER of King David, who became ruler of Israel, nearly a millienum before Christ's birth.

Those accounts would be part of the Dead Sea Scrolls, about which you were mumbling earlier.

Of course, this wouldn't be the first time, skeptics have claimed that something in the Bible never existed, only to be royally embarrased, once archaeological discovery verifies what Scripture stated to be true, from the get-go.

But, since you insist on setting yourself up for stuff like this.....

Bethlehem was first settled by the Canaanite tribes, naming the city Beit Lahama. They built a temple to the God Lahama on the present mount of the Nativity. Around 1200 BCE, the Philistines had a garrison stationed in Bethlehem because of its strategic location.

The city also is significant to Jews because it is the burial place of the matriarch Rachel and the birthplace of King David. Samuel anointed David king in Bethlehem (I Sam. 16:1-13) and David was a descendant of Ruth and Boaz, who were married in Bethlehem. Bethlehem is the birthplace of Jesus and therefore a holy site to Christians around the world. Following the Israelites rule, the Greeks occupied the region unitl the arrival of the Romans in 160 BCE.

The city, just 5 miles south of Jerusalem, was turned over to the Palestinian Authority as a result of the 1995 Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement. Bethlehem has a population of approximately 50,000 people, with the Muslims holding a slight majority. In Hebrew, the town is Bet Lehem ("House of Bread" ) and, in Arabic, it is Bet Lahm ("House of Meat"). For centuries, Christian pilgrims have made the roughly 2½ hour walk from Jerusalem to Manger Square. Today, the trip typically begins at the train station in Abu Tor and proceeds along the Hebron Road.

 

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Archaeology/archtoc.html

-you haven't addressed the conformity of the Jesus myth with the long established dying/resurrected godman blueprint

You mean that one used for Attis.....OOPS!! He wasn't resurrected; He was either turned into a tree or simply buried, with his nails and hair still growing

Or, perhaps, you meant Osiris....WAIT A MINUTE!!!! He gets stuck in the underworld.

Or, you really meant Mithras......UH OH!!!!! Mithras doens't even die, according the accounts about him. He kills a bull, instead.

So, what's was that "blueprint" again? Of course, that still doesn't take into the account your flawed claims that the figures that actually died did so by crucifixion. Again, what's the holdup, here? Where are the specific references about the "mystery religions" that show Attis, Osiris, Mithras, or any of the others, dying in that manner?

You might have a point that Jesus died on the cross whereas Attis was nailed to a tree AFTER he bled to death... but the parallels can't be dismissed.

The Luke

Problem is, the accounts about Attis DO NOT STATE that he was nailed to a tree, whatsoever (That is YOUR assertion which, you cannot back up with specific account references, despite numerous requests to do so). Of course, lost in all of this is what would be the point of nailing him to a tree, if he's already dead.

Recap:
How did he bleed to death, again..............BY SELF-CASTRATION.
Why did he do this to himself.......OUT OF LUST FOR HIS MAMA.

Jesus Christ did NOT chop off his nuts, nor did He lust for His mother. And, unlike Attis, He actually rose from the dead.

I almost forgot!!! You also stated that Attis was "crucified" by an evil tyrant. Yet, you have NOT produced this guy's name. Again, what's the holdup?

[Deicide]

Ummmm.....genius. Evidence outside the canonical Gospels has been the very thing I've used to tear your measley arguments apart. Or, did you forget about the numerous references to the very mystery religions, about which you keep clucking that state, in no uncertain terms, how these figures (Attis, Osiris, Dionysus, etc.) died.

What metaphors? You tried foolishing fusing the Jesus account with some astronomical mess. But, when asked to specifically show where the Gospels match that (which you claimed you could do), you came up with ZIP!!

As yet another friendly reminder, the Gospels give no indication of "three kings" visiting Jesus at His birth on Dec. 25, which was your assertion about the astronomical metaphors from the start. Not only do the accounts of Jesus not match this astrological foolishness, the accounts OF THE OTHER FIGURES DO NOT MATCH.

This isn't an issue of winning people over (as if the Necrosis, Deicide, and L Dawg, long known to be atheists/agnostics here, needed any help from your ramblings to agree with you). It's about whether the account of Jesus Christ was formed from these other religions. Based on the data from the Jesus account AND THOSE of these other figures, it is clear that they DO NOT match, not in form, not in function, nor in purpose.

There goes that selective memory again. I do recall stating that Bethlehem had been in existence at least ONE THOUSAND YEARS, before Jesus was even born. In fact, I gave as an example the account of Ruth, in which she and her mother-in-law return to Bethlehem, in order for Naomi to find other memories of her family. Naomi looks for a male member of her family to redeem Ruth and become her new husband, as a reward for her standing by her, after the death of her husband and son (Ruth's first husband). Unless you forgot (or never knew in the first place) Ruth is the GRANDMOTHER of King David, who became ruler of Israel, nearly a millienum before Christ's birth.

Those accounts would be part of the Dead Sea Scrolls, about which you were mumbling earlier.

Of course, this wouldn't be the first time, skeptics have claimed that something in the Bible never existed, only to be royally embarrased, once archaeological discovery verifies what Scripture stated to be true, from the get-go.

But, since you insist on setting yourself up for stuff like this.....

Bethlehem was first settled by the Canaanite tribes, naming the city Beit Lahama. They built a temple to the God Lahama on the present mount of the Nativity. Around 1200 BCE, the Philistines had a garrison stationed in Bethlehem because of its strategic location.

The city also is significant to Jews because it is the burial place of the matriarch Rachel and the birthplace of King David. Samuel anointed David king in Bethlehem (I Sam. 16:1-13) and David was a descendant of Ruth and Boaz, who were married in Bethlehem. Bethlehem is the birthplace of Jesus and therefore a holy site to Christians around the world. Following the Israelites rule, the Greeks occupied the region unitl the arrival of the Romans in 160 BCE.

The city, just 5 miles south of Jerusalem, was turned over to the Palestinian Authority as a result of the 1995 Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement. Bethlehem has a population of approximately 50,000 people, with the Muslims holding a slight majority. In Hebrew, the town is Bet Lehem ("House of Bread" ) and, in Arabic, it is Bet Lahm ("House of Meat"). For centuries, Christian pilgrims have made the roughly 2½ hour walk from Jerusalem to Manger Square. Today, the trip typically begins at the train station in Abu Tor and proceeds along the Hebron Road.

 

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Archaeology/archtoc.html

You mean that one used for Attis.....OOPS!! He wasn't resurrected; He was either turned into a tree or simply buried, with his nails and hair still growing

Or, perhaps, you meant Osiris....WAIT A MINUTE!!!! He gets stuck in the underworld.

Or, you really meant Mithras......UH OH!!!!! Mithras doens't even die, according the accounts about him. He kills a bull, instead.

So, what's was that "blueprint" again? Of course, that still doesn't take into the account your flawed claims that the figures that actually died did so by crucifixion. Again, what's the holdup, here? Where are the specific references about the "mystery religions" that show Attis, Osiris, Mithras, or any of the others, dying in that manner?

Problem is, the accounts about Attis DO NOT STATE that he was nailed to a tree, whatsoever (That is YOUR assertion which, you cannot back up with specific account references, despite numerous requests to do so). Of course, lost in all of this is what would be the point of nailing him to a tree, if he's already dead.

Recap:
How did he bleed to death, again..............BY SELF-CASTRATION.
Why did he do this to himself.......OUT OF LUST FOR HIS MAMA.

Jesus Christ did NOT chop off his nuts, nor did He lust for His mother. And, unlike Attis, He actually rose from the dead.

I almost forgot!!! You also stated that Attis was "crucified" by an evil tyrant. Yet, you have NOT produced this guy's name. Again, what's the holdup?

Head meet wall. 

As I said Robert Price has not been addressed and he has annhilated you.

Owned by Bob.

[OzmO]

Anyone care to summarize this debate in point form?

[The Luke]

If there is indeed no parallel between the astrological allegory Mystery Religions and the Jesus story, then why did early Chrurch fathers openly admit such parallels and concoct the risible Doctrine of Diabolical Mimicry?

Christian leaders living in the first and second century actually went to the trouble of explaining to their detractors that the Divil (like the Devil but more of a prankster), knowing Jesus was coming to fulfill prophecy had preemptively created many other dying/resurrecting godmen in order to discredit the "original" Jebus story.

If these gods didn't mimic Jesus (or Jesus didn't mimic them) then why the need to explain the parallels?


Why did Justin Martyr admit that Perseus (of Golden Fleece fame) had been born without sexual intercourse; was crucified; only to rise from to the dead? We have no record nowadays of such a story, and anyone searching for such a story would only be able to find the folklore version, with the trip to Colchis; Medea and the Golden Fleece.

Could it be that when the astrological dying/resurrecting godman Mystery Religion story came to Greece the folklore hero Perseus was grafted into the story?



The Luke

[Deicide]

If there is indeed no parallel between the astrological allegory Mystery Religions and the Jesus story, then why did early Chrurch fathers openly admit such parallels and concoct the risible Doctrine of Diabolical Mimicry?

Christian leaders living in the first and second century actually went to the trouble of explaining to their detractors that the Divil (like the Devil but more of a prankster), knowing Jesus was coming to fulfill prophecy had preemptively created many other dying/resurrecting godmen in order to discredit the "original" Jebus story.

If these gods didn't mimic Jesus (or Jesus didn't mimic them) then why the need to explain the parallels?


Why did Justin Martyr admit that Perseus (of Golden Fleece fame) had been born without sexual intercourse; was crucified; only to rise from to the dead? We have no record nowadays of such a story, and anyone searching for such a story would only be able to find the folklore version, with the trip to Colchis; Medea and the Golden Fleece.

Could it be that when the astrological dying/resurrecting godman Mystery Religion story came to Greece the folklore hero Perseus was grafted into the story?



The Luke

Head meet Wall.

[MCWAY]

If there is indeed no parallel between the astrological allegory Mystery Religions and the Jesus story, then why did early Chrurch fathers openly admit such parallels and concoct the risible Doctrine of Diabolical Mimicry?

Christian leaders living in the first and second century actually went to the trouble of explaining to their detractors that the Divil (like the Devil but more of a prankster), knowing Jesus was coming to fulfill prophecy had preemptively created many other dying/resurrecting godmen in order to discredit the "original" Jebus story.

This was already covered here - http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/JesusEvidence4.htm



The actual quote is:

"Be well assured, then, Trypho," I continued, "that I am established in the knowledge of and faith in the Scriptures by those counterfeits which he who is called the devil is said to have performed among the Greeks; just as some were wrought by the Magi in Egypt, and others by the false prophets in Elijah's days. For when they tell that Bacchus [or Dionysos], son of Jupiter [or Zeus], was begotten by [Jupiter's] intercourse with Semele, and that he was the discoverer of the vine; and when they relate, that being torn in pieces, and having died, he rose again, and ascended to heaven; and when they introduce wine into his mysteries, do I not perceive that [the devil] has imitated the prophecy announced by the patriarch Jacob, and recorded by Moses? And when they tell that Hercules was strong, and travelled over all the world, and was begotten by Jove of Alcmene, and ascended to heaven when he died, do I not perceive that the Scripture which speaks of Christ, 'strong as a giant to run his race,' has been in like manner imitated? And when he [the devil] brings forward Aesculapius as the raiser of the dead and healer of all diseases, may I not say that in this matter likewise he has imitated the prophecies about Christ? But since I have not quoted to you such Scripture as tells that Christ will do these things, I must necessarily remind you of one such: from which you can understand, how that to those destitute of a knowledge of God, I mean the Gentiles, who, 'having eyes, saw not, and having a heart, understood not,' worshipping the images of wood, [how even to them] Scripture prophesied that they would renounce these [vanities], and hope in this Christ." (Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 69)

Commentary: Justin notes Dionysos was not virgin born (Zeus had intercourse with Semele, etc) and was "torn in [to] pieces" (by the Titans), not crucified. He also notes it was the O.T. prophecies recorded by Moses that the Greeks were "imitating."[/quote]

If these gods didn't mimic Jesus (or Jesus didn't mimic them) then why the need to explain the parallels?

He's not explaining the "parallels"; he's explaining the DIFFERENCES. Jesus was virgin-born; Dionysus was not. Jesus was crucified; Dionysus was not, etc.

Why did Justin Martyr admit that Perseus (of Golden Fleece fame) had been born without sexual intercourse; was crucified; only to rise from to the dead? We have no record nowadays of such a story, and anyone searching for such a story would only be able to find the folklore version, with the trip to Colchis; Medea and the Golden Fleece.

Could it be that when the astrological dying/resurrecting godman Mystery Religion story came to Greece the folklore hero Perseus was grafted into the story?


The Luke

Try that again, Luke!!!






Justin also writes:


“From what has been already said, you can understand how the devils, in imitation of what was said by Moses, asserted that Proserpine was the daughter of Jupiter, and instigated the people to set up an image of her under the name of Kore [Cora, i.e., the maiden or daughter] at the spring-heads. For, as we wrote above, Moses said, "In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form and unfurnished: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." In imitation, therefore, of what is here said of the Spirit of God moving on the waters, they said that Proserpine [or Coral] was the daughter of Jupiter. And in like manner also they craftily feigned that Minerva was the daughter of Jupiter, not by sexual union, but, knowing that God conceived and made the world by the Word, they say that Minerva is the first conception; which we consider to be very absurd, bringing forward the form of the conception in a female shape. And in like manner the actions of those others who are called sons of Jupiter sufficiently condemn them.”



Notice that Justin is arguing that demons mostly copied the older Jewish beliefs—not the Christian beliefs. For some reason Justin draws a parallel between God, the Father using God the Son to imagine and create the world, with the Roman goddess Minerva being “the first conception.” Minerva was believed to be the Roman goddess of wisdom who had leaped out of Jupiter’s head fully grown. Further, the New Testament never states that God “conceived the World.” This is hardly a strong parallel with Jesus’ virgin birth.

http://www.preventingtruthdecay.org/jmq.shtml

And, there's more!!!!

Zeus may have had union with Danae not in human form, but in a shower of gold, but all the same the union is a satisfaction of his lust for the
human maid. Everywhere it is the love of the god for the mortal woman, and not merely the exclusion of a human father of the child, which stands in the forefront of interest....Could anything be more utterly remote from the representation in Matthew and Luke than these stories of the amours of Zeus?

We should never forget that the appeal of Justin Martyr and Origen to the pagan stories of divine begetting is an argumentum ad hominen. "You hold", Justin and Origen say in effect to their pagan opponents, "that the virgin birth of Chirstis unbelievable; well is it any more unbelieveable than the story that you yourselves believe?" When Justin....refers to the birth of Perseus as a birth from (or through) a virgin, he is going beyond what the pagan sources contained. There seems to be no clear evidence that pagan sources used the word "virgin" as referring to the mothers of heroes, mythical or historical, who were represented as being begotten of the gods". - Dr. J. Gresham Machen, Princeton Theological Seminary, "The Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ".






'We propound nothing new or different'

 

The other quote from Justin appearing in the movie is this one (my emphasis):

When we say that Jesus Christ was produced without sexual union, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended to heaven, we propound nothing new or different from what you believe regarding those whom you call the sons of Jupiter."
- Justin Martyr, church father [21:30]

Here Justin is trying to convince a skeptical pagan audience that there were parallels between pagan myths and the Christ story. It was the pagans who didn't see this, as explained above. However, the parallels that Justin gives aren't between Christianity and pagan ideas, they are between Hebrew writings and pagan myths. But what actual examples did he use?

 

Let's look at some of the parallels listed in Justin's "First Apology", and see how convincing they sound. These are all taken from Chapters 32 and 33. Notice how Justin is tying back to Hebrew prophecies (my emphasis below):

The prophet Moses, then, Was, as we have already said, older than all writers; and by him, as we have also said before, it was thus predicted: "There shall not fail a prince from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until He come for whom it is reserved; and He shall be the desire of the Gentiles, binding His foal to the vine, washing His robe in the blood of the grape." The devils, accordingly, when they heard these prophetic words, said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and gave out that he was the discoverer of the vine, and they number wine [or, the ass] among his mysteries; and they taught that, having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven.

Remember Price's comment about what the pagans were saying: "What you say about Jesus we've been saying about Dionysus and Hercules all the time". Well, ironically, Justin is actually saying, "What you say about Bacchus/Dionysus the Hebrews were saying about Jesus all this time". Would a pagan have accepted that similarity as valid, do you think?

 

Jesus Mythers who use Justin rarely show that Justin is showing the similarities between pagan myths and Hebrew ones. But if there is a similarity between Christianity on the one hand, and the Bacchus myth and Moses passage on the other hand, then the most obvious candidate for copying would have been from the Hebrew writings (Though I suspect that some Jesus Mythers may even claim that Christians copied from both the Moses passage in the Old Testament AND the Bacchus myth).

 

Justin gets into a bit of a tangle with this next parallel, believing the pagans have confused the story of Jesus riding a foal and ascending into heaven to produce the tale of Bellerophon ascending to heaven on a flying horse:

And because in the prophecy of Moses it had not been expressly intimated whether He who was to come was the Son of God, and whether He would, riding on the foal, remain on earth or ascend into heaven, and because the name of "foal" could mean either the foal of an ass or the foal of a horse, they, not knowing whether He who was foretold would bring the foal of an ass or of a horse as the sign of His coming, nor whether He was the Son of God, as we said above, or of man, gave out that Bellerophon, a man born of man, himself ascended to heaven on his horse Pegasus.

Here you can see that Justin is stretching to find the parallel between Hebrew Scriptures and the Greek myth. Another example:

And when they heard it said by the other prophet Isaiah, that He should be born of a virgin, and by His own means ascend into heaven, they pretended that Perseus was spoken of.

This is a closer parallel. There are only one or two gods "born of a virgin" outside of Christ (despite the numerous claims otherwise around the internet). Perseus is one of those. His mother had been locked away since she was a young girl, and Jupiter had come down in a golden shower to impregnate her.
 
http://members.optusnet.com.au/gakuseidon/God_Who_Wasnt_There_analysis_Part2.htm

Lost in all of this (notwithstanding the shower stuff about Zeus, which is effectively his finding another way to get his freak on, with an unsuspecting mortal woman), I'm sad to say that Perseus' death is not reported to be by crucifixion.

[big L dawg]

no one better say nuthin bad about scientology,or I'll show them how there wrong by quoting an L Ron Hubbard book.

[The Luke]

"When we say that Jesus Christ was produced without sexual union, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended to heaven, we propound nothing new or different from what you believe regarding those whom you call the sons of Jupiter."
- Justin Martyr, Church Father [21:30]

...or perhaps he was referring to the Ephesian Mystery Religions which differed from the folklore versions of Hercules; Mithras; Perseus; Prometheus etc wherein each of these gods were crucified and then rose again three days later.


There's even a tradition (which also predates Christianity) in which Buddha himself was crucified, only to rise from the dead three days later.



The Luke

[MCWAY]

...or perhaps he was referring to the Ephesian Mystery Religions which differed from the folklore versions of Hercules; Mithras; Perseus; Prometheus etc wherein each of these gods were crucified and then rose again three days later.


There's even a tradition (which also predates Christianity) in which Buddha himself was crucified, only to rise from the dead three days later.


The Luke

And where, oh where, are all these traditions? I'm losing count of how many times I've asked you to produce the specific references about these guys that back your claims about crucifixion. If you can't produce them, your saying that these "mystery religions" differ from the "folklore versions" is basically hollow.

Plus, you forgot about the rest of Justin's quote:

The prophet Moses, then, Was, as we have already said, older than all writers; and by him, as we have also said before, it was thus predicted: "There shall not fail a prince from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until He come for whom it is reserved; and He shall be the desire of the Gentiles, binding His foal to the vine, washing His robe in the blood of the grape." The devils, accordingly, when they heard these prophetic words, said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and gave out that he was the discoverer of the vine, and they number wine [or, the ass] among his mysteries; and they taught that, having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven.

Again, the distinction between this son of Jupiter and Jesus Christ is being made. Dionysus gets torn to pieces (and those pieces eaten, except his heart). That does NOT happen to Jesus Christ; His body isn't broken at all, much less dismembered and devoured by animals or fish.


To top it all off, I've posted the "mystery religion" versions of some of these figures and, as mentioned some time ago, their birth, purpose, and death DO NOT MATCH that of Jesus Christ. They ain't following this so-called "blueprint" you mention.

At least two gods die without resurrecting; one doens't die at all. Those that do meet their end don't croak via crucifixion. Several of them are anything but "virgin-born". And the differences get more staggering, as more investigation is done about them.

[The Luke]

McWay,


You keep skipping over the Kashmiri Issa...

You know, the guy who was crucified for blasphemy by the Romans on the orders of Pilate around 30 AD in Jerusalem, then rose from the dead three days later. That guy.

Seeing as his life story/gospel was written decades before any of the canonical gospels, surely the Jesus story is in breach of copyright?

Expecting a side-step...


The Luke

[MCWAY]

McWay,


You keep skipping over the Kashmiri Issa...

You know, the guy who was crucified for blasphemy by the Romans on the orders of Pilate around 30 AD in Jerusalem, then rose from the dead three days later. That guy.

Seeing as his life story/gospel was written decades before any of the canonical gospels, surely the Jesus story is in breach of copyright?

Expecting a side-step...


The Luke

You keep experiencing memory loss. I do recall stating that Issa was Jesus' Muslim name and that the belief by some folks is that He traveled to India. He supposedly studied Buddhism and took those teaching back to Israel. And all of this allegedly occured during the 18-year gap, between His going to the temple in Jerusalem at age 12 and the start of His ministry around age 30.

In other words, the Kashmiri Issa and Jesus are believed to be one and the same.

But, since you want to talk about skipping stuff, how many times are you going to skip over delivering the goods, about the references that back your claims about Attis (or any of those other dudes) dying via crucifixion?

The short answer is, of course, that you'll do that indefinitely, because you can't produce the goods, just as you can't do such to support this latest extracted-from-your-rectum claim.

Here's a little reminded about Attis:

"The Mother of the gods also shed bitter tears from which an almond tree sprang up, and then she took the sacred pine-tree, under which Attis had emasculated himself, into her den and joined the funeral laments of Agdistis, smiting her breasts and walking around the trunk of the tree. Agdistis begged Jupiter [or Zeus] to bring Attis back to life (revivisceret), but that was not permitted. Instead the god agreed that the body of Attis should not putrefy, that his hair should always grow and that his little finger should move for eternity. Satisfied with these favours, Agdistis consecrated the dead man's body to Pessinous and honoured him with yearly ceremonies and priestly services." (Lancellotti, page 4-5)

I believe Attis counts as one of those sons of Jupiter. But, guess what, dear old dad keeps him DEAD!!!

[The Luke]

In other words, the Kashmiri Issa and Jesus are believed to be one and the same.

...you do know that Issa is buried in Kashmir, don't you?

How can he be Jesus if he died in Kashmir in 80ish AD?



The Luke

[MCWAY]

...you do know that Issa is buried in Kashmir, don't you?

How can he be Jesus if he died in Kashmir in 80ish AD?


The Luke

Why don't you ask this guy?

Reviewed by Chris Mercogliano
This truly extraordinary - some would claim utterly unbelievable - piece of scholarship contains no messages from the Archangel Gabriel, no interviews with extra-terrestrials, and no Elvis, Princess Di (or Jesus) sightings. What it does contain are decades of verifiable research performed by a distinguished seventy-three-year-old Indian Professor of History who has drawn the - some would also claim utterly fantastic - conclusion that Jesus of Nazareth did not die on the cross as hundreds of millions of Christians like myself are taught to believe. Instead, he spent the second half of his life studying and teaching in the East before he died in the Himalayan province now known as Kashmir.

Obviously, if the theory that Christ lived to a ripe old age were somehow proven, it would stand the entire Christian world on its head overnight, thanks to a millennium of emotional, spiritual, political and economic investment in his supposed martyrdom at the hands of the Roman conquerors of the Holy Land. But Professor Hassnain is not out to discredit modern Christianity, with which he says he has no axe to grind. Though a traditional Northern Indian Muslim by birth, over time he crossed over into Sufism, a mystical branch of Islam, and therefore now believes that all religions should be honored equally as expressions of a divine oneness. Hassnain is careful to point out that Judaism, Christianity and Islam can all be traced to the same historical root: Abraham. He says that his motivation for spending so many years of his life researching the earthly existence of the flesh and blood Jesus owes itself to his reverence for one of humanity's great prophets and to his deeply-held desire to free up Christianity's monopoly on Him whom they call the Son of God.

His hope in so doing is that at least some of the chasm of misunderstanding between the world's great religions might thereby be bridged. No, Fida Hassnain is no crackpot, which I'm sure he will be labeled by Christian "authorities" everywhere should they ever happen to get their hands on this admittedly incredible book. Rather he is a scholar of the highest order who himself is a direct descendent of a grandson of Mohammed on his mother's side. And he has left few stones unturned in his voluminous research, which as Director of Archives for the Jammu and Kashmir states in the 1960s, he was then in a rare position to begin. Nor is he the first to write a book alleging that Jesus physically survived the crucifixion. The previously published Jesus Lived in India, by Holger Kersten, made the same claim. Kersten, it should be noted, relied heavily on Professor Hassnain's discoveries about Jesus' "second life" in the East.

http://www.spinninglobe.net/histjesusearch.html

Since a number of Muslims believe that Jesus existed BUT did not die on the cross, the idea that He's buried in Kashmir isn't that hard to grasp, from that perspective.

Now, I believe you're supposed to be producing some of those references that state that Attis, Osiris, Buddha, and those other gods died via crucifixion. The clock keeps ticking and you keep running.

[The Luke]

I've actually watched documentaries in which film crews traveled up the Kasmiri holy mountain, past the sacred tomb of Issa's loyal donkey, up to Issa's tomb (a later Muslim holy man is also interned there).

You can even see the carved footprints of Issa's feet in the stone... including the nail holes from his crucifixion. It's not a wild eyed claim that Jesus is buried SOMEWHERE in Kashmir... the tomb is a tourist attraction, and has been since 80 AD.

The carvings on the mausoleum walls which proclaimed Issa's assertion that he was in fact the same Jesus that Christians worship as a risen god were hacked off by early Christian pilgrims... luckily Muslim scholars had already recorded them.


So which is it McWay?

Was there another Christ named Issa, who also performed miracles; died on the cross and rose from the dead?

Or is the one and only original Jesus buried in Kashmir?


The Luke

[MCWAY]

I've actually watched documentaries in which film crews traveled up the Kasmiri holy mountain, past the sacred tomb of Issa's loyal donkey, up to Issa's tomb (a later Muslim holy man is also interned there).

You can even see the carved footprints of Issa's feet in the stone... including the nail holes from his crucifixion. It's not a wild eyed claim that Jesus is buried SOMEWHERE in Kashmir... the tomb is a tourist attraction, and has been since 80 AD.

The carvings on the mausoleum walls which proclaimed Issa's assertion that he was in fact the same Jesus that Christians worship as a risen god were hacked off by early Christian pilgrims... luckily Muslim scholars had already recorded them.


So which is it McWay?

Was there another Christ named Issa, who also performed miracles; died on the cross and rose from the dead?

Or is the one and only original Jesus buried in Kashmir?


The Luke

Personally, I'd say none of the above. But the guy who believes that Issa/Jesus is buried in India feels differently.

A Search for the Historical Jesus, like other works disputing the death on the cross theory, then takes us through a microanalysis of what little written record remains of the crucifixion, as well as of possible physical evidence like the Shroud of Turin, in which Jesus' body is believed to have been wrapped after it was removed from the cross. Hassnain's argument that Jesus survived his ordeal is quite convincing; more so, I have found, than the account offered by the New Testament, as is his argument that Christ then slowly traveled back to the East, where he would die of natural causes many decades later. Along the way Hassnain cites numerous sources in addition to the Tibetan scrolls which he never got to see&emdash;including the Bible, the Gnostic Gospels and the Dead Sea scrolls, as well as substantial archaeological evidence, to make his case.

In essence, this Dr. Hassnain is basically using the old Swoon theory, claiming that Jesus Christ survived the crucifixion, was somehow revived by being in that tomb, and (having never died) He appeared to His disciples and others, which apparently is how He allegedly ends up back in India.

But, going back to the words of Dr. Habermas, "you don't get down from the cross alive". Add to that, the extra-Biblical references that report Jesus' death, and the Swoon theory basically comes up short.


BTW, the clock's still ticking. Where are these specific references to the "mystery religions", claiming that Attis (or even Buddha, for that matter) died via crucifixion and was raised from the dead? You keep making the claims; but, to this day, you've come up with NOTHING!!!!

[The Luke]

Personally, I'd say none of the above. But the guy who believes that Issa/Jesus is buried in India feels differently.

A Search for the Historical Jesus, like other works disputing the death on the cross theory, then takes us through a microanalysis of what little written record remains of the crucifixion, as well as of possible physical evidence like the Shroud of Turin, in which Jesus' body is believed to have been wrapped after it was removed from the cross. Hassnain's argument that Jesus survived his ordeal is quite convincing; more so, I have found, than the account offered by the New Testament, as is his argument that Christ then slowly traveled back to the East, where he would die of natural causes many decades later. Along the way Hassnain cites numerous sources in addition to the Tibetan scrolls which he never got to see&emdash;including the Bible, the Gnostic Gospels and the Dead Sea scrolls, as well as substantial archaeological evidence, to make his case.

In essence, this Dr. Hassnain is basically using the old Swoon theory, claiming that Jesus Christ survived the crucifixion, was somehow revived by being in that tomb, and (having never died) He appeared to His disciples and others, which apparently is how He allegedly ends up back in India.

But, going back to the words of Dr. Habermas, "you don't get down from the cross alive". Add to that, the extra-Biblical references that report Jesus' death, and the Swoon theory basically comes up short.


BTW, the clock's still ticking. Where are these specific references to the "mystery religions", claiming that Attis (or even Buddha, for that matter) died via crucifixion and was raised from the dead? You keep making the claims; but, to this day, you've come up with NOTHING!!!!

...complete evasion.
You just copy and paste for the sake of copy and pasting... your answer here is a complete non-sequitur.

Issa's tomb is open to the public. It's been a pilgrimage centre since 80 AD.


So either there was a Christ before Christ, making the Jesus story plagiarism... or Jesus IS Issa.

Which one will you admit to, a buried Jesus... or an obvious source for the Jesus myth?



The Luke

[MCWAY]

...complete evasion.
You just copy and paste for the sake of copy and pasting... your answer here is a complete non-sequitur.

Issa's tomb is open to the public. It's been a pilgrimage centre since 80 AD.


So either there was a Christ before Christ, making the Jesus story plagiarism... or Jesus IS Issa.

Which one will you admit to, a buried Jesus... or an obvious source for the Jesus myth?



The Luke

I admit to neither, as the historical and archaeological evidence does NOT point to Issa being Jesus Christ. Again, the scholarship behind this is but yet another rehash of the "Swoon theory".

The evasion would fall on you, as you brought up this Issa mess, in a futile attempt to cover your behind, since you CANNOT back up your claim about Attis or the other gods, dying via crucifixion. Every time, and I mean, EVERY TIME, you get asked to do this, you cry, whine, bleat, complain, change the subject, and come up with a buttload of excuses.

[The Luke]

If Issa isn't Jesus, as you assert, then you now have your EXACT DUPLICATE of Jesus from which the Jesus myth was plagiarised (Issa's history was written decades before any of the gospels).

Just to recap, Issa:
-healed the sick
-healed the lame
-healed the blind
-raised the dead
-was crucified by the Romans in Jerusalem, for heresy
-died on the cross
-was placed in a tomb
-rose from the dead on the third day
-he even showed his followers the holes in his hands and feet

...so isn't this the Christ before Christ you claimed couldn't exist?


Expecting another side-step...


The Luke

[loco]

utter destruction of christianity right here. Brutal parellels.

Come on Necrosis, you are an intelligent and educated person.  Why would you say something like this from watching something on YouTube, without investigating it yourself?  You're not the type to take at faith value everything you see on the Internet, or what The Luke preaches to you.

Did you look in the Bible to see if it's true that Jesus was born on December 25th, or that he was visited by 3 kings?  I have, and it is not in the Bible.  The videos provide no references and nothing to back up their claims, much like our own The Luke here. 

Did you do your own research to see if these ancient mythical deities were really born on December 25th and were really visited by 3 kings?  It is probably not true for all of them, just like it isn't true about Jesus.  And if it is true about those ancient myths, all you have proven is that some Roman Catholic Church traditions are based on ancient myths, that's all.

These videos are not any different than the unsubstantiated claims The Luke has been making already.

[loco]

The Luke, Deicide, Necrosis,

Please let me see your explanation for Christianity's explosive growth in the 1st century in the mist of so much persecution, unlike all these ancient myths that you claim Christianity is a copy of? 

How did Christianity manage to grow so quickly in such a short period of time, then continue to grow in the mist of horrible persecution for almost 300 years before Christianity was finally legalized, before the Roman Catholic Church came into power?

The Bible has the only explanation.  Jesus Christ is not only real, but multitudes saw him die, then he rose from the dead and over 500 people saw him alive again. 

Unlike you, I do not have enough faith to believe otherwise.

But please, do state your alternative explanation for Christianity's rapid success and growth, while explaining why these many competing myths you talk about did not follow the same fate.

[MCWAY]

If Issa isn't Jesus, as you assert, then you now have your EXACT DUPLICATE of Jesus from which the Jesus myth was plagiarised (Issa's history was written decades before any of the gospels).

Just to recap, Issa:
-healed the sick
-healed the lame
-healed the blind
-raised the dead
-was crucified by the Romans in Jerusalem, for heresy
-died on the cross
-was placed in a tomb
-rose from the dead on the third day
-he even showed his followers the holes in his hands and feet

...so isn't this the Christ before Christ you claimed couldn't exist?


Expecting another side-step...


The Luke

Then, you must be looking in the mirror, because side-stepping is your specialty.  

As usual, you are making claims out the wazoo, with no references to support them. But, that should hardly come as a surprise, seeing as you have YET to answer the call, with regards to producing references about those other gods, being crucified.

When your Osiris claims got shot down, you switched to Attis. After your Attis takes got tanked, you jumped to Perseus. And, since that got put down, now you’re on the Issa bandwagon. And, as the trend continues to be, when your feeble assertions collapse about Issa, you’ll try to prop up another “flavor-of-the-month” deity.