Author Topic: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?  (Read 68060 times)

The Luke

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #250 on: November 26, 2008, 12:43:51 PM »
Let's see that post McWay... just list ONE original detail from the Jesus story...

You can't really make demands of the person who issued a challenge when you haven't met that challenge.


Just a simple post. Maybe even a list of the original details. Can you produce even one?



The Luke

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #251 on: November 26, 2008, 04:40:25 PM »
No scientist would ever accept the explanation: god did it as an explanation. Neither would any historian. You have your head up your ass MCWAY.
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MCWAY

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #252 on: November 27, 2008, 07:11:13 PM »
Let's see that post McWay... just list ONE original detail from the Jesus story...

You can't really make demands of the person who issued a challenge when you haven't met that challenge.


Just a simple post. Maybe even a list of the original details. Can you produce even one?



The Luke


Your blindness is exceeded only by your COWARDICE.

I answered your "challenge" since page 1. In case you forgot, I did mention something about the crucifixion, which went something like this:


To use a quip from Mr. T’s “Clubber Lang” character from Rocky III.

"I reject the challenge, because the Luke is no challenge. But, I’ll be more than happy to beat on him some more!!!"



I’ll give you 3:

1) Virgin birth (i.e. Mary had no sexual contact WHATOSEVER, when she conceived Christ. There was no supernatural whoremongering ala Zeus and his shenanigans; no coitus in birdie form with a dead guy with a faux schlong, etc.)

2) Death by crucifixion, not by chopping his balls off or being barbecued in the womb and resown in someone's leg.

3) His betrayal for 30 pieces of silver, by a close associate.


Of course, that leaves YOU with the task of showing what alleged allegories these accounts were lifted and why, which (for all of your blathering) you have yet to do).

That is, name the religion from which the Jesus account was supposedly borrowed and give the specifics as to why it was used.


Since then, you have made excuse, after excuse, after excuse, NOT TO PRODUCE a specific reference, stating that, in fact, Attis, Osiris, or any of these other figures from which Jesus was supposedly crafted died in that manner.

So, for the nth time, PRODUCE THE SPECIFIC references from these so-called "mystery religions" that show Attis, Osiris, or anyone else dying in this manner (in case you need reminding, drowning and self-castration do NOT equal crucifixion).

Your trying to project your pitiful shortcomings on me simply won't make the grade.

And, as stated multiple times, not only are your ridiculous claims about Jesus Christ wrong, you CAN'T EVEN GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT about the other deities. You screwed up on Attis, on Osiris, on Horus, just to name a few.

This was your weak laundry list from earlier:


Haven't you ever read about the solar-deity allegories used in Mystery Religions? You've got some Googling to do (or alternatively read Gandy and Freke's book).



It's always the same stuff:
-born of a virgin on 25th or December
-bright star marks his birthplace
-born in a cave/stable
-three kings attend his birth
-knows everything by age 12
-baptised in a river
-chooses twelve disciples (and a hidden thirteenth secret female disciple associated with a snake)
-performs miracles: heals the sick; the lame; the blind; raises the dead; feeds a multitude
-loses a shoe/foot/leg (Jebus has his feet washed)
-betrayed to the tyrant by his brother/twin/lover/disciple
-crucified (or similar variant)
-placed back in a tomb
-rises from the dead after three days
-ascends into heaven

And this all falls to pieces for the following reasons:

You have YET to show that Jesus, Horus, Osiris, Attis, or anyone else was born Dec. 25. The virgin-birth stuff (at minimum) disqualifies Horus.

The "three kings attend his birth" stuff also falls flat. "Three kings" don't attend Jesus' birth; For the nth time, they're wise men, exact number unknown, that find Jesus when He's about two. Of course, you don't have jack to show that those conditions apply to any of the other deities.

I've already cut your crucifixion claims to bits. Once again, the clock's still ticking for you to show that Attis, Osiris, or any of those other figures died via crucifixion.

As for the "rise from the dead in three days" thing, you're still in the hole, because at least two guys (Osiris, Attis) DO NOT RISE FROM THE DEAD AT ALL!!! One doesn't even die (Mithras).

The question now is, will you continue your cowering, or will you (sometime between now and Christ's return) produce some facts to back up your smack....for once?

MCWAY

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #253 on: November 29, 2008, 07:50:03 PM »
No scientist would ever accept the explanation: god did it as an explanation. Neither would any historian. You have your head up your ass MCWAY.

What a scientist or historian accepts is dependent on the specific subject matter, Deicide. That, of course, makes your blanket statement an easy one to refute.

In particular, the feeble attempts of atheists like Price to come up with an explanation for Christianity's success in the 1st century (and beyond), WITHOUT the Resuurection, ring supremely hollow.

Every contrived notion by non-believers has pretty much been taken apart by Christian scholars and historians, such as the men I've listed earlier.

To quote author, Josh McDowell, "The shallowness of the critic speaks louder than the voice of the believer."

And, on this forum, you seem to have the inside track on shallowness.

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #254 on: November 29, 2008, 10:16:06 PM »
What a scientist or historian accepts is dependent on the specific subject matter, Deicide. That, of course, makes your blanket statement an easy one to refute.

In particular, the feeble attempts of atheists like Price to come up with an explanation for Christianity's success in the 1st century (and beyond), WITHOUT the Resuurection, ring supremely hollow.

Every contrived notion by non-believers has pretty much been taken apart by Christian scholars and historians, such as the men I've listed earlier.

To quote author, Josh McDowell, "The shallowness of the critic speaks louder than the voice of the believer."

And, on this forum, you seem to have the inside track on shallowness.

atheism is on the rise, religion correlates inversely with intellect.


loco

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #255 on: November 30, 2008, 03:42:35 AM »
atheism is on the rise, religion correlates inversely with intellect.

Necrosis, are you going to try to give us your explanation? 

The Luke, Deicide, Necrosis,

Please let me see your explanation for Christianity's explosive growth in the 1st century in the mist of so much persecution, unlike all these ancient myths that you claim Christianity is a copy of? 

How did Christianity manage to grow so quickly in such a short period of time, then continue to grow in the mist of horrible persecution for almost 300 years before Christianity was finally legalized, before the Roman Catholic Church came into power?

The Bible has the only explanation.  Jesus Christ is not only real, but multitudes saw him die, then he rose from the dead and over 500 people saw him alive again. 

Unlike you, I do not have enough faith to believe otherwise.

But please, do state your alternative explanation for Christianity's rapid success and growth, while explaining why these many competing myths you talk about did not follow the same fate.

Christianity has been around for over 2,000 years, and today it is here to stay.

Deicide

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #256 on: November 30, 2008, 03:50:21 AM »
Quote
What a scientist or historian accepts is dependent on the specific subject matter, Deicide. That, of course, makes your blanket statement an easy one to refute.

No, it is not. Saying something was a miracle explains nothing, answers nothing and is unacceptable. Imagine if all PhD candidates merely wrote dissertations saying: it is a miracle. Scientists who claim that something is a miracle are not scientists. Historians use critical thought and analysis to understand the past. They take the social and political circumstances of the time and put them together to form a coherent pciture; they don't just say, it was a miracle.

Quote
In particular, the feeble attempts of atheists like Price to come up with an explanation for Christianity's success in the 1st century (and beyond), WITHOUT the Resuurection, ring supremely hollow
.

Feeble attempts? I think he rather nailed it on the head and most rational people do as well.

Quote
Every contrived notion by non-believers has pretty much been taken apart by Christian scholars and historians, such as the men I've listed earlier.

The only peopel who believe this are you and the other fundies.

Quote
To quote author, Josh McDowell, "The shallowness of the critic speaks louder than the voice of the believer."

And, on this forum, you seem to have the inside track on shallowness.

As do you for propping up false and fallacious arguments on a regular basis that only your fellow nutters buy.
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MCWAY

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #257 on: November 30, 2008, 11:39:31 AM »
No, it is not. Saying something was a miracle explains nothing, answers nothing and is unacceptable. Imagine if all PhD candidates merely wrote dissertations saying: it is a miracle. Scientists who claim that something is a miracle are not scientists. Historians use critical thought and analysis to understand the past. They take the social and political circumstances of the time and put them together to form a coherent pciture; they don't just say, it was a miracle.

Were you referring to Ph.Ds like the late Dr. Bruce Metzger, Dr. D. James Kennedy, Dr. D. A. Carson, et. al? I guess you forgot about those guys.

Or historians like Dr. Paul Meier (Professor of Ancient History, Western Michigan University) or Dr. Edwin Yamauchi (Professor of Ancient History, University of Miami, Ohio)?




Feeble attempts? I think he rather nailed it on the head and most rational people do as well.

The only peopel who believe this are you and the other fundies.

AHHH YESSS!!!! The tired old "it's just you fundies" argument, when you can't dismiss the Biblical scholars that hold to the resurrection.

Fortunately, atheists like you DO NOT arbitrate who's "rational" and who isn't.


As do you for propping up false and fallacious arguments on a regular basis that only your fellow nutters buy.

Wishful thinking on your part, which is why the frustration for you atheists continues to show, as for all your so-called "rationale", your attempts to explain away the Christian faith and the Resurrection have continued to fall flat.

Deicide

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #258 on: November 30, 2008, 01:01:21 PM »
Were you referring to Ph.Ds like the late Dr. Bruce Metzger, Dr. D. James Kennedy, Dr. D. A. Carson, et. al? I guess you forgot about those guys.

Or historians like Dr. Paul Meier (Professor of Ancient History, Western Michigan University) or Dr. Edwin Yamauchi (Professor of Ancient History, University of Miami, Ohio)?



AHHH YESSS!!!! The tired old "it's just you fundies" argument, when you can't dismiss the Biblical scholars that hold to the resurrection.

Fortunately, atheists like you DO NOT arbitrate who's "rational" and who isn't.


Wishful thinking on your part, which is why the frustration for you atheists continues to show, as for all your so-called "rationale", your attempts to explain away the Christian faith and the Resurrection have continued to fall flat.

Epic Head Banging Against Wall...you are definitely one of the most stubborn fundies I have ever seen.
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Necrosis

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #259 on: November 30, 2008, 01:29:02 PM »
Were you referring to Ph.Ds like the late Dr. Bruce Metzger, Dr. D. James Kennedy, Dr. D. A. Carson, et. al? I guess you forgot about those guys.

Or historians like Dr. Paul Meier (Professor of Ancient History, Western Michigan University) or Dr. Edwin Yamauchi (Professor of Ancient History, University of Miami, Ohio)?



AHHH YESSS!!!! The tired old "it's just you fundies" argument, when you can't dismiss the Biblical scholars that hold to the resurrection.

Fortunately, atheists like you DO NOT arbitrate who's "rational" and who isn't.


Wishful thinking on your part, which is why the frustration for you atheists continues to show, as for all your so-called "rationale", your attempts to explain away the Christian faith and the Resurrection have continued to fall flat.

do you believe that noahs ark actually happened? or that a man lived in a whale for days? lets focus on the ark i love that story.

MCWAY

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #260 on: November 30, 2008, 04:54:04 PM »
Epic Head Banging Against Wall...you are definitely one of the most stubborn fundies I have ever seen.

Why? Because I am unphased by skeptic drivel, wrapped up in a blanket of profanity, by atheists obsessed by something they don't believe to exist?

 ;D

do you believe that noahs ark actually happened? or that a man lived in a whale for days?


Do you believe that two big rocks smashed together, 5 billions years ago (by accident, with no guidance whatsoever), resulting in the goo that turned into this critter (with no sentient guidance) or that critter (with no sentient guidance), somehow ending up with "Unga-Munga", the caveman (your supposed great-great-great-great.........grandpa)?  ;D


lets focus on the ark i love that story.

Fine with me.

You can start here:

There are many descriptions of the remarkable event. Some of these have come from Greek historians, some from the Babylonian records; others from the cuneiform tablets, and still others from the mythology and traditions of different nations, so that we may say that no event has occurred either in ancient or modern times about which there is better evidence or more numerous records, than this very one which is so beautifully but briefly described in the sacred Scriptures. It is one of the events which seems to be familiar to the most distant nations—in Australia, in India, in China, in Scandinavia, and in the various parts of America. It is true that many look upon the story as it is repeated in these distant regions, as either referring to local floods, or as the result of contact with civilized people, who have brought it from historic countries, and yet the similarity of the story is such as to make even this explanation unsatisfactory.” Stephen D. Peet, “The Story of the Deluge,” American Antiquarian, Vol. 27, No. 4,

You can continue with "Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study"

Here's a brief slide synopsis of the book:

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/ark/sld001.htm


Deicide

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #261 on: November 30, 2008, 05:11:25 PM »
Why? Because I am unphased by skeptic drivel, wrapped up in a blanket of profanity, by atheists obsessed by something they don't believe to exist?

 ;D

Do you believe that two big rocks smashed together, 5 billions years ago (by accident, with no guidance whatsoever), resulting in the goo that turned into this critter (with no sentient guidance) or that critter (with no sentient guidance), somehow ending up with "Unga-Munga", the caveman (your supposed great-great-great-great.........grandpa)?  ;D

Fine with me.

You can start here:

There are many descriptions of the remarkable event. Some of these have come from Greek historians, some from the Babylonian records; others from the cuneiform tablets, and still others from the mythology and traditions of different nations, so that we may say that no event has occurred either in ancient or modern times about which there is better evidence or more numerous records, than this very one which is so beautifully but briefly described in the sacred Scriptures. It is one of the events which seems to be familiar to the most distant nations—in Australia, in India, in China, in Scandinavia, and in the various parts of America. It is true that many look upon the story as it is repeated in these distant regions, as either referring to local floods, or as the result of contact with civilized people, who have brought it from historic countries, and yet the similarity of the story is such as to make even this explanation unsatisfactory.” Stephen D. Peet, “The Story of the Deluge,” American Antiquarian, Vol. 27, No. 4,

You can continue with "Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study"

Here's a brief slide synopsis of the book:

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/ark/sld001.htm



Epic lack of understanding...as usual... ::)
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Necrosis

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #262 on: November 30, 2008, 06:22:36 PM »


 ;D

Do you believe that two big rocks smashed together, 5 billions years ago (by accident, with no guidance whatsoever), resulting in the goo that turned into this critter (with no sentient guidance) or that critter (with no sentient guidance), somehow ending up with "Unga-Munga", the caveman (your supposed great-great-great-great.........grandpa)?  ;D


http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/ark/sld001.htm



no boat could fit the animals, they would have to be fed for 150 days, would have to have no causualties at all, and predators and prey would somehow have to ignore each other.

did the grizzily bear swim across the atlantic? all the insects to?

No rational person could beleive this happened.

leonp1981

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #263 on: November 30, 2008, 06:59:15 PM »
no boat could fit the animals, they would have to be fed for 150 days, would have to have no causualties at all, and predators and prey would somehow have to ignore each other.

did the grizzily bear swim across the atlantic? all the insects to?

No rational person could beleive this happened.

Of course that happened.  Two of every animal, even the random species in the Amazon that we haven't even discovered yet!!!  They all got the memo!

big L dawg

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #264 on: November 30, 2008, 08:21:39 PM »
no boat could fit the animals, they would have to be fed for 150 days, would have to have no causualties at all, and predators and prey would somehow have to ignore each other.

did the grizzily bear swim across the atlantic? all the insects to?

No rational person could beleive this happened.

agreed...and the idiots that believe this think there opinion should be takin seriously.
DAWG

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #265 on: November 30, 2008, 09:30:23 PM »
agreed...and the idiots that believe this think there opinion should be takin seriously.
they should be laughed at and ridiculed for wasting peoples time. Stupidity is ugly, something would should not tolerate. educate yourselves.

MCWAY

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #266 on: December 01, 2008, 04:46:29 AM »
Of course that happened.  Two of every animal, even the random species in the Amazon that we haven't even discovered yet!!!  They all got the memo!

Apparently, you didn't bother to check out the slide, or you wouldn't have posted this blurb about "species".

The large number of species of animals in existence today is often used to illustrate the supposed impossibility of the ark. However, it would have been sufficient to bring just representative animals from each GENUS in the taxonomic rank, not every species. All of the species for a given genus have the same amount of genetic complexity (just expressed physically in different ways, such as differing coloration or size), and both creationists and evolutionists agree that the variations identified as species can all be derived from a suitable common ancestor. In addition, it was only necessary to bring aboard those animals that lived on land (land mammals, land birds, land reptiles, amphibians).

MCWAY

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #267 on: December 01, 2008, 07:14:05 AM »
agreed...and the idiots that believe this think there opinion should be takin seriously.

Hmmmm......being called an idiot by someone who apparently bombed basic grammar (the word is "their", not "there"). Now, that's rich!!!

they should be laughed at and ridiculed for wasting peoples time. Stupidity is ugly, something would should not tolerate. educate yourselves.

In that case, we should all be getting a chuckle out of you and L Dawg, as your basic punctuation and sentence structure mirror that of the average 4th grader.

Maybe, you two should take a refresher in basic grammar, before you start running your mouths about people educating themselves and being "idiots".


The Luke

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #268 on: December 01, 2008, 11:47:34 AM »
Apparently, you didn't bother to check out the slide, or you wouldn't have posted this blurb about "species".

The large number of species of animals in existence today is often used to illustrate the supposed impossibility of the ark. However, it would have been sufficient to bring just representative animals from each GENUS in the taxonomic rank, not every species. All of the species for a given genus have the same amount of genetic complexity (just expressed physically in different ways, such as differing coloration or size), and both creationists and evolutionists agree that the variations identified as species can all be derived from a suitable common ancestor. In addition, it was only necessary to bring aboard those animals that lived on land (land mammals, land birds, land reptiles, amphibians).

...quoting such apologist bullshit in order to spar above your intellect level only demonstartes how dim you are McWay.

If you understood even some of what you continuously copy and paste you'd be too smart to be a Christian, let alone a fundamentalist Christian. The above explanation is mathematically impossible, the dimensions of the Ark are given in the Bible... it's just not big enough, I won't even mention the genetic evidence to the contrary.



The Luke

PS- the Bible Noah's Ark story is lifted directly from Sumerian mythology (Google: "Uta Napishtim"), presumably plagiarized during the Babylonian captivity like much of Genesis was.

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #269 on: December 01, 2008, 11:50:16 AM »
Hmmmm......being called an idiot by someone who apparently bombed basic grammar (the word is "their", not "there"). Now, that's rich!!!

In that case, we should all be getting a chuckle out of you and L Dawg, as your basic punctuation and sentence structure mirror that of the average 4th grader.

Maybe, you two should take a refresher in basic grammar, before you start running your mouths about people educating themselves and being "idiots".



damn man you so owned me and my typing shills.I won't recover from that one.
DAWG

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #270 on: December 01, 2008, 01:57:49 PM »
Hmmmm......being called an idiot by someone who apparently bombed basic grammar (the word is "their", not "there"). Now, that's rich!!!

In that case, we should all be getting a chuckle out of you and L Dawg, as your basic punctuation and sentence structure mirror that of the average 4th grader.

Maybe, you two should take a refresher in basic grammar, before you start running your mouths about people educating themselves and being "idiots".



i am lazy. Yet my iq is still higher then yours, along with more education and awards in academia.

You lack rational inquiry and logic. This is my beef. You think noah knew about gensus and species? why wouldnt the animals eat each other? how did he feed the carnivores? how did he get to all the animals on different continents etc etc etc..

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #271 on: December 01, 2008, 02:00:28 PM »
damn man you so owned me and my typing shills.I won't recover from that one.

yes pwnd, the use of comma's incorrectly makes us stupid, yet the inability to grasp simple concepts, recognize an argument lacking axioms or the basic bastardization of logic are forgivable.

leonp1981

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #272 on: December 01, 2008, 02:03:54 PM »
Apparently, you didn't bother to check out the slide, or you wouldn't have posted this blurb about "species".

The large number of species of animals in existence today is often used to illustrate the supposed impossibility of the ark. However, it would have been sufficient to bring just representative animals from each GENUS in the taxonomic rank, not every species. All of the species for a given genus have the same amount of genetic complexity (just expressed physically in different ways, such as differing coloration or size), and both creationists and evolutionists agree that the variations identified as species can all be derived from a suitable common ancestor. In addition, it was only necessary to bring aboard those animals that lived on land (land mammals, land birds, land reptiles, amphibians).


Stop nitpicking at one specific word.  That's just being daft.  The Ark can not have happened.  It's impossible.  Look at a typical example of a boat from around the time of the Ark.  Could that have transported two elephants, rhino's, hippo's, etc?  Not a chance.

And I don't believe that you could have taken two animals from each genus, regardless of species.  Yes, animals have evolved into different variations of the same creature, but not in the relatively insignificant amount of time since the Ark supposedly set sail.  Evolution takes millenia, not a couple of thousand years.

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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #273 on: December 01, 2008, 02:08:22 PM »
Stop nitpicking at one specific word.  That's just being daft.  The Ark can not have happened.  It's impossible.  Look at a typical example of a boat from around the time of the Ark.  Could that have transported two elephants, rhino's, hippo's, etc?  Not a chance.

And I don't believe that you could have taken two animals from each genus, regardless of species.  Yes, animals have evolved into different variations of the same creature, but not in the relatively insignificant amount of time since the Ark supposedly set sail.  Evolution takes millenia, not a couple of thousand years.

Unfortunately millenia are a few thousand years. :-\ Perhaps you meant millions? :)
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Re: Is there anything original in the Jesus story?
« Reply #274 on: December 01, 2008, 02:09:27 PM »
Unfortunately millenia are a few thousand years. :-\ Perhaps you meant millions? :)

Doh!   ;D

Yep, err, what you said.   :-[