Who is the Anti-Christ?

[loco]

...yeah, but the mentions of Jesus were added later by Christian scribes copying the books. Experts agree on this.

By that reasoning Jesus was a pro-abortion; atheist; transgender homosexual liberal... because I have a copy of one of the gospels in which I added such an admission by Jesus. It's a nonsensical argument.

Interpolations don't count... the Testimonium Flavianus is dismissed by experts because it definitely wasn't in the original written by Josephus. Likewise the Donation of Constantine is a forgery.


In fact, every single historical reference to Jesus has similarly turned out to be a fake/forgery/interpolation. There is now NO HISTORICAL EVIDENCE FOR JESUS EVER HAVING EXISTED.

Which should come as no surprise to those who understand that Jesus conforms perfectly to the astrological dying-resurrecting solar-deity godman metaphor... he is a metaphorical story device.


The Luke

No.  You are taking us in circles here.

Nope.

Unlike the controversial Testimonium Flavianum, the above quotation from the Antiquities is considered authentic in its entirety by almost all scholars.

Nope.  Actually, my research is more up to date than most atheists', at least the ones who bring up Josephus on this board.

Unlike the controversial Testimonium Flavianum, the above quotation from the Antiquities is considered authentic in its entirety by almost all scholars.

But besides that, the poor, persecuted early Christians had no access to Josephus' texts.  And though the later, powerful, Roman Catholic Church did have access to Josephus' Antiquities, they could not have possibly added the above quotation because the Roman Catholic church denies that James was the brother of Jesus.  They deny that Jesus had any brother and insist that Mary was a virgin all of her life on this earth.  Plus by then, the passage had already been mentioned in several places by the earlier Origen.

As for the controversial Testimonium Flavianum:

Josephus on Jesus - Current state of the debate

Judging from Dr. Alice Whealey's 2003 survey of the historiography, it seems that the majority of modern scholars consider that Josephus really did write something here about Jesus, but that the text that has reached us is corrupt to a perhaps quite substantial extent. In the words of the Catholic Encyclopedia entry for Flavius Josephus, "The passage seems to suffer from repeated interpolations." There has been no consensus on which portions are corrupt, or to what degree.
Alice Whealey writes:

Twentieth century controversy over the Testimonium Flavianum can be distinguished from controversy over the text in the early modern period insofar as it seems generally more academic and less sectarian. While the challenge to the authenticity of the Testimonium in the early modern period was orchestrated almost entirely by Protestant scholars and while in the same period Jews outside the church uniformly denounced the text's authenticity, the twentieth century controversies over the text have been marked by the presence of Jewish scholars for the first time as prominent participants on both sides of the question. In general, the attitudes of Protestant, Roman Catholic, Jewish and secular scholars towards the text have drawn closer together, with a greater tendency among scholars of all religious backgrounds to see the text as largely authentic. On the one hand this can be interpreted as the result of an increasing trend towards secularism, which is usually seen as product of modernity. On the other hand it can be interpreted as a sort of post-modern disillusionment with the verities of modern skepticism, and an attempt to recapture the sensibility of the ancient world, when it apparently was still possible for a first-century Jew to have written a text as favorable towards Jesus of Nazareth as the Testimonium Flavianum.

Dr. Alice Whealey: Josephus on Jesus: The Testimonium Flavianum Controversy from Late Antiquity to Modern Times (Studies in Biblical Literature, Vol. 36). Peter Lang Publishing (February 2003) ISBN-10: 0820452416


This proves the historisity of Jesus, and it proves your above statement false.

[The Luke]

I think I've already answered this nonsense earlier in this thread.

James the Just was NOT a Christian. James the Just was an Essene, and he declared HIMSELF the Messiah.

The Essenes never wrote ONE SINGLE WORD about Jesus... never mentioned his name. If your leaders brother was god, wouldn't that warrant a mention more so than the details of how to wash your hands (which they did record).


Besides, a mention of Jesus or his followers does NOT prove the historicity of Jesus... if you are going to accept that, then you would also have to accept the Gnostic Gospels; Nag Hammadi Library and Dead Sea Scrolls (better provenance)... all of which show beyond any shadow of a doubt that Jesus was a fictional/mythological character.

If you accept a Josephus reference to someone called "Lord" ("Christos") then why not accept the testimony of the Mandeans (the "Swamp Kurds") who have been insisting Jesus was the Antichrist since the beheading of John the Baptist?


The Luke

[loco]

I think I've already answered this nonsense earlier in this thread.

James the Just was NOT a Christian. James the Just was an Essene, and he declared HIMSELF the Messiah.

The Essenes never wrote ONE SINGLE WORD about Jesus... never mentioned his name. If your leaders brother was god, wouldn't that warrant a mention more so than the details of how to wash your hands (which they did record).


Besides, a mention of Jesus or his followers does NOT prove the historicity of Jesus... if you are going to accept that, then you would also have to accept the Gnostic Gospels; Nag Hammadi Library and Dead Sea Scrolls (better provenance)... all of which show beyond any shadow of a doubt that Jesus was a fictional/mythological character.

If you accept a Josephus reference to someone called "Lord" ("Christos") then why not accept the testimony of the Mandeans (the "Swamp Kurds") who have been insisting Jesus was the Antichrist since the beheading of John the Baptist?


The Luke

I'm giving you secular scholars, and you're giving me conspiracy theories.   

James was the brother of Jesus Christ.  Both the Gospels and the non-Christian, 1st century historian, Josephus mention it.  Scholars agree as I have shown.  You can believe whatever and whoever you want to believe.

[The Luke]

James was the brother of Jesus Christ.  Both the Gospels and the non-Christian, 1st century historian, Josephus mention it.  Scholars agree as I have shown.  You can believe whatever and whoever you want to believe.

So what...?

Mary Magdalene was Jesus' wife and chief disciple, then the first Christian pope ...according to the Gospel of Mary Magdalene.

Pontius Pilate was a believing Christian who executed Jesus only to fulfill prophecy, was beheaded by the Christian Roman Emperor, then ascended into heaven (with his wife) in the arms of the Archangel Gabriel, witnessed by the entire Roman court... according to the Gospel of Pontius Pilate.

Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus because Jesus asked him to do so in order to fulfill prophecy, which Judas did because such was his role as chief disciple... according to the Gospel of Judas.

Judas was Jesus' identical twin brother who selflessly took Jesus' place on the cross... according to the Gnostic Gospels (and Cathar; Bogomil; Albigensian; Aryan and Old Believer traditions).

Thomas, "Doubting Thomas", met an elderly Jesus at a wedding in Kashmir ('twixt India and Pakistan) around 80 AD which denies Jesus' supposed bodily ascension into Heaven... according to the Gospel of Thomas.

Jesus was a transcendentalist Buddhist who separated his Daemon (holy spirit or heavenly twin) from his Eidelon (bodily manifestation) in order that only his body (Eidelon twin) was crucified... Jesus' Daemon manifestation watched the crucifixion from afar laughing all the time, as now he would no longer be reincarnated but ascend to Heaven... according to the Gnostic Gospels (and Cathar; Bogomil; Albigensian; Aryan and Old Believer traditions).

Jesus was the Antichrist, who asked his wifes sister (Mary Magdalene's sister Salome, step daughter of Herod) to arrange the execution of the true Christ John the Baptist, and then took delivery of the Baptist's head... using the Baptist's head to keep the true Christ's (John the Baptist's) spirit in thrall, he forced the Baptist's spirit to perform miracles, for which the Antichrist (Jesus) took credit. The subsequent religion which grew up around this Satanic figure (Jesus) is the method by which the Antichrist damns all souls to Hell... according to the Gospels of the Mandean Swamp Kurds of Iraq.



Between the Nag Hammadi texts; Dead Sea Scrolls and Gnostic Gospels there are something like 16 different disciples. These texts can't even agree on the twelve disciples names.

Sometimes Judas is Jesus' twin brother.
Sometimes Thomas is Jesus' twin brother.
Sometimes Judas takes Jesus' place on the cross.
Sometimes Thomas takes Jesus' place on the cross.
Sometimes Jesus' body is crucified, but his spirit separates from his physicality and survives.
Sometimes Jesus rises from the dead, sometimes he doesn't.
Sometimes Jesus is taken off the cross before he dies and merely recovers, then goes into exile.
Sometimes Jesus ascends into heaven, sometimes he doesn't.
Sometimes Jesus is the Antichrist, and John the Baptist is the true Christ.
Sometimes Mary Magdalene is Jesus' wife, she even ascends into heaven daily for a conjugal visit.
Sometimes Mary Magdalene is the chief disciple.
Sometimes Buddha is crucified.
Sometimes Jesus is the reincarnation of Buddha.

ALL of these texts have the same or better provenance than ANY of the canonical gospels... they can't all be right.


The Luke

[loco]

So what...?

Mary Magdalene was Jesus' wife and chief disciple, then the first Christian pope ...according to the Gospel of Mary Magdalene.

Pontius Pilate was a believing Christian who executed Jesus only to fulfill prophecy, was beheaded by the Christian Roman Emperor, then ascended into heaven (with his wife) in the arms of the Archangel Gabriel, witnessed by the entire Roman court... according to the Gospel of Pontius Pilate.

Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus because Jesus asked him to do so in order to fulfill prophecy, which Judas did because such was his role as chief disciple... according to the Gospel of Judas.

Judas was Jesus' identical twin brother who selflessly took Jesus' place on the cross... according to the Gnostic Gospels (and Cathar; Bogomil; Albigensian; Aryan and Old Believer traditions).

Thomas, "Doubting Thomas", met an elderly Jesus at a wedding in Kashmir ('twixt India and Pakistan) around 80 AD which denies Jesus' supposed bodily ascension into Heaven... according to the Gospel of Thomas.

Jesus was a transcendentalist Buddhist who separated his Daemon (holy spirit or heavenly twin) from his Eidelon (bodily manifestation) in order that only his body (Eidelon twin) was crucified... Jesus' Daemon manifestation watched the crucifixion from afar laughing all the time, as now he would no longer be reincarnated but ascend to Heaven... according to the Gnostic Gospels (and Cathar; Bogomil; Albigensian; Aryan and Old Believer traditions).

Jesus was the Antichrist, who asked his wifes sister (Mary Magdalene's sister Salome, step daughter of Herod) to arrange the execution of the true Christ John the Baptist, and then took delivery of the Baptist's head... using the Baptist's head to keep the true Christ's (John the Baptist's) spirit in thrall, he forced the Baptist's spirit to perform miracles, for which the Antichrist (Jesus) took credit. The subsequent religion which grew up around this Satanic figure (Jesus) is the method by which the Antichrist damns all souls to Hell... according to the Gospels of the Mandean Swamp Kurds of Iraq.



Between the Nag Hammadi texts; Dead Sea Scrolls and Gnostic Gospels there are something like 16 different disciples. These texts can't even agree on the twelve disciples names.

Sometimes Judas is Jesus' twin brother.
Sometimes Thomas is Jesus' twin brother.
Sometimes Judas takes Jesus' place on the cross.
Sometimes Thomas takes Jesus' place on the cross.
Sometimes Jesus' body is crucified, but his spirit separates from his physicality and survives.
Sometimes Jesus rises from the dead, sometimes he doesn't.
Sometimes Jesus is taken off the cross before he dies and merely recovers, then goes into exile.
Sometimes Jesus ascends into heaven, sometimes he doesn't.
Sometimes Jesus is the Antichrist, and John the Baptist is the true Christ.
Sometimes Mary Magdalene is Jesus' wife, she even ascends into heaven daily for a conjugal visit.
Sometimes Mary Magdalene is the chief disciple.
Sometimes Buddha is crucified.
Sometimes Jesus is the reincarnation of Buddha.

ALL of these texts have the same or better provenance than ANY of the canonical gospels... they can't all be right.


The Luke

 

Way to avoid my challenge after all your arguing about Josephus.

Produce a single version of Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews that does not mention Jesus Christ at all.

[The Luke]

Produce a single version of Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews that does not mention Jesus Christ at all.

...they all mention Jesus, but the mentions of Jesus are interpolations.


The Luke

[loco]

...they all mention Jesus, but the mentions of Jesus are interpolations.


The Luke

And as I have shown, scholars disagree.  And as for the James brother of Jesus Christ text, I've shown you that Christians could not have done that.

[The Luke]

And as I have shown, scholars disagree.  And as for the James brother of Jesus Christ text, I've shown you that Christians could not have done that.

...why not?

Please quote the reference you are referring to and why Christians couldn't have written it. (Because I know you are wrong).


The Luke

[loco]

...why not?

Please quote the reference you are referring to and why Christians couldn't have written it. (Because I know you are wrong).


The Luke

Unlike the controversial Testimonium Flavianum, the above quotation from the Antiquities is considered authentic in its entirety by almost all scholars.

But besides that, the poor, persecuted early Christians had no access to Josephus' texts.  And though the later, powerful, Roman Catholic Church did have access to Josephus' Antiquities, they could not have possibly added the above quotation because the Roman Catholic church denies that James was the brother of Jesus.  They deny that Jesus had any brother and insist that Mary was a virgin all of her life on this earth.  Plus by then, the passage had already been mentioned in several places by the earlier Origen.

[Soul Crusher]

[MCWAY]

Well, Well!!!

It's been nearly a YEAR, and Luke has yet to answer Loco's challenge about a copy of Josephus' Antiquities that DOES NOT make a reference to Jesus Christ.

This pretty much shoot to pieces yet another claim of his, as well as his silly assertion that there exists no historical evidence for Jesus Christ.

[The Luke]

Well, Well!!!

It's been nearly a YEAR, and Luke has yet to answer Loco's challenge about a copy of Josephus' Antiquities that DOES NOT make a reference to Jesus Christ.

This pretty much shoot to pieces yet another claim of his, as well as his silly assertion that there exists no historical evidence for Jesus Christ.

...the Slavonic Jesus (the oldest copy of it) lacks one of the references (proving it to be an interpolation), the other is only a reference to "the Anointed": a title common to dozens of gods and people.

I think I've answered this three times already. Can't you guys read? Or do you just dislike the answers?


The Luke

[loco]

...the Slavonic Jesus (the oldest copy of it) lacks one of the references (proving it to be an interpolation), the other is only a reference to "the Anointed": a title common to dozens of gods and people.

I think I've answered this three times already. Can't you guys read? Or do you just dislike the answers?


The Luke

No.  We already had this discussion, remember?  You failed to substantiate your bold, baseless claims:

...I'm sorry I've actually made a mistake here, seems my memory isn't as reliable as I thought it was.

I'm generally just stirring the shit here, so I don't Google-fu or copy-and-paste my opinions like McWay and his cronies.


So I was wrong, the "Slavic Josephus" I referred to is actually more generally known as the Slavonic Josephus or "The Old Josephus". I'm not sure when it was actually discovered (another mistake of mine) but it was actually verified and exhaustively compared to traditional versions of Josephus in 2003... that's where my confusion arose. None of this research was published before 2003.

This older version of Josephus refers to a character known as "Judas of Galilee" instead of Jesus and places the nativity story during 25 BC. Among many other differences.

It is now clear that ALL of Josephus' references to Jesus are obvious forgeries/interpolations... and the case for a historical Jesus now has NO BASIS IN FACT. Jesus is a fictional character... as we should assume of any person who's life conforms to the astrological metaphor of the dying/resurrecting godman.

You can read all about it here:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/unter01.htm

Apologies...


The Luke

No.

The Slavonic Josephus is not older than the Greek and Arabic versions of the Antiquities of the Jews.  And guess what, all three, the Greek, the Arabic and the Slavonic versions mention Jesus Christ, not just once but twice. 

H. Leeming, K. Leeming:  Josephus' Jewish War and Its Slavonic Version: A Synoptic Comparison (Arbeiten Zur Geschichte Des Antiken Judentums Und Des Urchristentums, Bd. 46.) by Flavius Josephus (Author). Brill Academic Publishers (April 2003) ISBN-10: 9004114386

Dr. Alice Whealey: Josephus on Jesus: The Testimonium Flavianum Controversy from Late Antiquity to Modern Times (Studies in Biblical Literature, Vol. 36). Peter Lang Publishing (February 2003) ISBN-10: 0820452416

The Luke, I challenge you to produce a single version of Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews that does not mention Jesus Christ at all.

...eh, yes, but it's an interpolation. Added in by Christian scribes later on.

Most experts seem to agree that the interpolations probably started when the references to Judas the Galileean were "corrected" to refer to Jesus. This is what the Slavonic Josephus shows.


The Luke

No.

Josephus mentions both, Judas the Galilean and Jesus Christ as two different people.  Likewise, the New Testament mentions both Jesus Christ, and in Acts 5:37 Judas the Galilean.  They are clearly two different people.

Besides, Judas the Galilean did not pay taxes to Rome and encouraged other Jews to do the same.  Jesus Christ paid his taxes and clearly taught us numerous times to pay our taxes(Matthew 17:23-27; Mark 12:15-17).  And Jesus picked a tax collector as one of his 12 apostles.