My Prediction...MemberX will....

[wavelength]

No bodybuilders want to add as much muscle as possible while staying lean.

A bodybuilder wants to add as much muscle as possible and eventually get lean. Otherwise it's not bodybuilding, it's just gaining weight. What would be your definition of the purpose of bodybuilding?

With the adonis principles people will look like concentration camp victims like you two.

Picture of you dieted down to 8% BF as a lifetime natural?

[The True Adonis]

What if the person has eaten 2000 calories but is still starving?

I would need further information about the individual.  A sedentary individual for the most part would never be starving at 2000 calories whereas Michael Phelps would obviously need more calories.

[chester_bbb]

Why would anyone do that? That makes no sense.

But isn't a calorie a calorie?

[BroadStreetBruiser]

This is why I hoped Adonis would enter & win this thing.  It would have been great to fly his ass down to Connelly's house, to set him straight on all his wacky notions on dieting.  I would have filmed the "debate" and posted it on youtube.  Oh well...

McFarland stated that the trip to CA was almost an "Adonis Clause" in the fact that if the winner was to in fact have to go CA Adonis would pull out of the contest. Interesting theory.

[The True Adonis]

But isn't a calorie a calorie?

It is, but a Macronutrient is not a Macronutrient.

[The True Adonis]

Enjoy.

Ketchup with that?


A while back another forum introduced to me to the concept that eating clean was actually not necessary for cutting. I was definitely resistant to the idea. Preposterous, isn't it? Everyone knows pre contest diets of competitive bodybuilders consist only of chicken and turkey breasts, oatmeal, sweet potatoes and various vegetables. One of the posters that introduced this idea to the forum consitently pushed this idea though...questioning what the hell 'eating clean' even means? Rinsing your food with soap?

Eventually...my curioisty was piqued enough. This poster was afterall very knowledgeable and well respected. So I applied it to myself. While I only really had 15lbs to cut down to...  for 6-8 weeks Burger King's junior whopper, junior double whopper and regular whopper (sans mayo, of course  ) was a staple of my diet. I became as lean if not slightly leaner than I'd ever been. I posted my results though with expected mixed reactions. After all, I was skeptical myself...and only a recent convert.

Kelly Bagget summed it up well here...:

Unless you just have really good genetics or take steroids the only real way to accomplish what you want is to take a 2 steps forward one step back approach. Building a significant amount of muscle without adding some fat is about impossible for most people.
Contrary to popular belief, providing your basic protein requirements are met and you're training, the "composition", "timing", and "frequency" of your diet are not as important as many think and are not as important as your total caloric intake. Let's run through a few myths right quick.
- Eating once a day is worse then eating 6 times a day but there's little if any difference between eating 3 times a day and 6 times a day.
-Whole food meals restore muscle glycogen just as well as postworkout carb drinks. If you have days between intense workouts for a certain bodypart it's not like your body needs to be in a hurry up mode to restore a couple of hundred calories worth of glycogen (energy) you burn up in a workout.
- The only major benefit of food combining is appetite control. How you combine your meals is of little relevance at the end of the day.
- Protein is protein. The majority of differences in quality (and price) can be made up for by quantity. Give me the guy getting his protein from steak and eggs everyday compared to the guy spending $1500 per month on fancy micro-ozone-filtered powders and I'll take the first guy every time.
- Carbs and fats are both sources of energy. Excess energy above and beyond your daily energy needs from either source leads to fat gain. Lack of energy from either source below your daily energy needs leads to fat loss. Whether you eat more calories from fat or more calories from carbohydrate, or less energy from fat or less energy from carbohydrate, energy is energy.
- The most important factor as to whether you gain or lose weight is your daily caloric intake.
- The amount of fat you gain on a bulking diet is primarily determined by your total caloric intake and your genetics.
- The amount of muscle you lose on a fat loss diet is primarily determined by the extent of your caloric deficit and your genetics.
- The body does not suddenly go "catabolic" when no protein is consumed over a few hour time span.

How Important is the Complicated Stuff?
For the most part, whatever complicated nutrition scheme you're on is not all that relevant as to what your body does with excess calories in regard to muscle gain as long as you're eating enough protein. Activity itself along with the total calories that you eat and the endocrine signals your body sends (genetics) are much more important. In order of importance the major factors would be:
1. Endocrine signaling (genetics, hormones, etc.)
2. Dietary totals
3. activity
4. Dietary composition
5. Meal timing.
A Scenario
If we take 2 twins and they both train the same and eat 150 grams of protein and 3000 calories per day but one eats 6 meals per day and 500 grams of carbs consisting of potatoes and brown rice etc., while the other eats 3 meals per day and 500 grams of carbs consisting of cereal and bread, most would be very surprised of how little difference there would be as far as the amount of muscle and fat they gained.
The main difference between a diet consisting of whole foods and a diet consisting of processed crap is, it's a lot easier to consume more calories on the processed diet and, since excess calories are what make people fat, it's a lot easier to consume more calories and get fat on a junk food diet. Additionally, many people eating the processed diet are not getting the right amount of protien.

Minimums
What are the minimums? Well, there is no minimum level of carbohydrate, - Carbs are just energy. If you wanted to get nitpicky you could say that 100 grams of carbohydrate would be required per day to maintain enough blood glucose to think straight, but that's not necessarily essential.
For protein the minimum generally runs anywhere from 1 gram per lb of bodyweight to 1.5 grams per lb of bodyweight, depending on the total caloric intake and activity. The less calories consumed and the greater the activity, the more protien you need.
For fat intake, fat is also just an energy source, the only fats required are essential fatty acids. You can get those by eating cold-water fish, or supplementing with 6-10 grams of fish oil per day. More essential fatty acids aren't going to do anything anabolically to magically transform your body.
Setting up a Diet Based On Minimums
Say I weigh 200 lbs and I want to set up a diet. Based on the minimums I'd be consuming:
200 grams of protein (1 gram per pound of bodyweight for 800 calories)
100 grams of carbohydrate (100 grams to fuel the brain 400 calories)
6 grams of fish oil caps (60 calories).
That means my baseline diet would be 1260 calories. I would obviously never go under that. From that point I would add additional carbs and fats to get my energy status where I wanted it.

Total Calories
Total calories refers to how much energy you need to take in to meet your daily energy demands. Take in less calories (energy) then you need and your body will either:
A: Burn fat
B: Burn muscle
Take in more calories then you need and your body will either:
A: Store the excess as fat
B: Use the excess to promote muscle growth.
Partitioning
You create the "stimulus" for muscle growth through training. You provide the raw material (food), for the growth. Once you've done those 2 things the rest is up to your body. How many calories can you direct into the "muscular" compartment and how many calories are directed into your "fat' compartment? We refer to that as nutrient partitioning.
Some people will gain 1 lb of fat for every pound of muscle they put on. Others will gain 3 lbs of fat per every 1 pound of muscle. Others will gain 4 lbs of muscle per every 1 pound of fat. The amount of muscle building in relation to fat building that goes on once you've provided excess raw materials is primarily determined by your genetics and how fast you attempt to gain weight (how much above maintenance you eat). If you don't believe me about the gentics all you have to do is hang around a group of division I athletes for a while - see who has the best physiques then watch those people eat.

Genetics
Genetic expression is 1/2 DNA and 1/2 environment. It can be affected by many things including activity, psychology, nutrition, and drugs but for the most part genetics are genetics. Obviously, there are major differences between different individuals but the ability to cause physique alterations can even change in a given individual over time.
The main thing that changes genetic expression in a given individual more then anything else is not what type of diet they're on, how they combine their meals, or what supplements they take, it is their activity and their age. Activity is obvious and 100% controllable but the only thing that can come close to over-riding the effect of aging is drugs. Go look at the diet and physique of a 70 + yr old bodybuilder like Jack Lalanne and compare it to the diet and physique of a 22 yr old Jack Lalanne. At 22 Jack Lalanne could probably gain 3 lbs of muscle per every 1 pound of fat. At 70+ he probably gains 4 lbs of fat per every 1 lb of muscle. He's still Jack Lalanne, but the difference in response to his environment (training and nutrition) is night and day. Now, put Jack Lalanne on a cycle of testosterone and he could probably come fairly close to duplicating what he could do in his 30's or 40's.

What about fat loss?
Ok. Now, when it comes to losing weight, the example I gave above with the twins also holds true. Assuming one consumes the minimum levels of protein, the amount of fat vs muscle they lose is mainly determined by the caloric deficit and genetics, not nutrient timing or whether they consume eggs, chicken, low carb, high carb, or the $100 protein powder.
Therefore, if we again have two twins wanting to lose weight and they each weigh 150 lbs and require 3000 calories per day, - and we have one eat a 2500 calorie diet with 150 grams of protein and the rest made up of expensive supplements, specifically timed nutrients, and only "health" foods, while the other twin eats 2500 calories per day consisting of 150 grams of protein along with peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and crackers, once again there will be very little difference in the effectiveness of either plan since the primary determining factors are the genetics and daily totals, which are the same.

Exceptions
Now, if we take a person who consumes only 30 grams of protein per day and the rest sugar and compare that to a person consuming 150 grams of protein per day and a wholesome diet, then yes, we will see some differences because one guy is only consuming 30 grams of protein thus the minimums aren't being met.
If we take one person dieting on a 500 calorie deficit compared to another person dieting on a 1500 calorie deficit then yes, one will lose a lot more muscle then the other because one is trying to lose a pound per week while ther other is trying to lose about 5 lbs per week.
If we take one person trying to gain muscle on a 500 calorie excess while another person is trying to gain muscle on a 2000 calorie excess, obviously the 2nd person is likely going to gain a lot more fat in the process.
If person A does an Atkins diet while person B does a south beach diet while person C does a Pritikin diet they can all get the same results. The primary difference between them is that some diets make it easier to consume lower calories. A low carbohydrate diet, for example, tends to blunt appetite. A high carbohydrate diet tends to stimulate appetite for a lot of people.

The Real Anabolic Secret
Ok, now having said all that and getting back to your original question, if you're gonna build muscle without getting fat you can either manipulate your endocrine signaling or you can manipulate your dietary totals.
The first consists of taking steroids. The primary benefit of steroids isn't that they allow you to get big it's that they improve nutrient partitioning and allow a person to get big without turning into a fat piece of crap in the process.
Anybody can get big. If you wanna get 250 lbs of muscle all you need to do is train a few times per week with basic movements and eat yourself up to about 400 lbs of scale weight. You'll be fat as heck and look like crap but it's not that hard. Hell, sumo wrestlers carry more muscle then either bodybuilders or powerlifters and they don't even train much less take steroids.

Manipulating Diet
Other options including manipulating your dietary totals. This might consist of:
1. Trying to gain weight very slowly.
Your body can only build muscle so fast. The faster you try to gain the more fat you're probably gonna gain. Eat maybe an extra 100 calories per day and you might gain a lb of muscle every couple of months. Honestly, most people who attempt to do this usually aren't able to build any muscle at all.
2. Take a 2 steps forward one step back approach
With this approach you eat and train to gain weight and muscle for a certain number of days and then eat and train to lose fat for a certain number of days. The weight gain phase obviously consists of high calories and the low calorie phase consists of low calories. This is the approach I prefer and is the only way short of drugs once can compete with superior genetics and aging.
The number of weight gain days and the number of weight loss days depends onyour metabolism and genetics. The basic tenet is that you put on muscle and accept some fat gain for a certain period of time and then you take off the fat that you gained. At the end of each phase you should be a bit heavier and just as lean.
Some people do well with a 5 day high calorie phase and a 2 day low calorie phase. Others do well with a 7 day high calorie phase and a 2 day low calorie phase. Others do well with a 13 day high calorie phase a 3 day low calorie phase. Others do well with a 2-3 week high calories phase and a 1-2 weeks low calorie phase. How you set it up doesn't really matter.
Here's an example of a 14 day 11 days high/3 days low split:
Mon- full body workout - high calories (maintenance + 500)
Wed- lower body workout - high calories
Fri- upper body workout- high calories
Mon - upper body workout- high calories
Wed - lower body workout - high calories
Fri- low calories + light full body workout
Sat- low calories (maintenance minus 500) interval sprints/cardio
Sun- low calories/ treadmill walking
Mon- Start over with day one
Hopefully that gives you some ideas.

I will add that my personal perference is a low to medium carb intake along with a relatively high fat intake mainly because I don't want to rely on only lean protein sources to get my protein intake. The lower carb intake also lets you 'appear leaner' even when bulking up because of reduced water retention. I think I've only measured my sodium intake for one period in my life... so IMO your water and carb consumption is more of a determining factor for water retention than sodium is.

So I am now a proponent of the idea that at least in terms of partitioning or improving body composition only, health isssues aside, eating clean is not a necessity. Of course I still recognize the fact that the health factor shouldn't really ever be totally separated  or ignored. But in the short run...if your in your target caloric range, if certain macros are met (protein and EFA requirements)... then enjoy that burger while dieting.

 

THE ABOVE IS REQUIRED READING FOR EVERYONE HERE AT GETBIG.

[BroadStreetBruiser]

That's a very interesting article. After my initial cut down I plan to do that accordingly.

[shiftedShapes]

This is why I hoped Adonis would enter & win this thing.  It would have been great to fly his ass down to Connelly's house, to set him straight on all his wacky notions on dieting.  I would have filmed the "debate" and posted it on youtube.  Oh well...

Why not fly him in anyway? 

[The True Adonis]

That's a very interesting article. After my initial cut down I plan to do that accordingly.

You will find it a lot more enjoyable for sure as it is less restrictive.

Although I do know you enjoy your current approach.

BSB is well on his way to doing what most Getbiggers NEVER do.  He is getting lean and ripped.

I am impressed with his progress.

[The True Adonis]

Timberwolf is 5`10 and 170-175 lbs in those pictures by the way. 
40 years of age.

[Fatpanda]

How or why would anyone go about doing that? That is ignorant and not feasible to even suggest. 

Scroll back.  I said pick foods that you think are "dirty" and I will incorporate them daily along with whatever else I eat.  Read a bit more carefully.

eat nothing by margarine for a month of course - easy.

the post by kelly baggot agrees that a junk food diet is unhealty  so why did you post it? to help prove how dumb you are for believing otherwise?

[The True Adonis]

Here is more info on Timberwolf.
Here is he about 5`10 165-170 lbs and his story of progression to get there.

My new diet experiment....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While I've always kept my bodyfat below 10% year round when trying to take it lower in the past I had always relied on eating clean, lowering my carbs (between 50-100g), keeping my protein high (minimum 200-250g) and keeping my fat intake at least 40 if not 50%. My calorie intake would invariably fall between 2100-2400 calories though I never really counted them.
Along with the diet I also did HIIT, whether it was on a treadmill or a boxing routine (speed bag/ ropework/ shadowboxing/ heavybag). Again I ate mostly plain chicken breasts, oatmeal, vegetables, protein shakes and tons of flax seed oil (averaging 6 tablespoons).

This time I decided to experiment.
I upped my carbs (150-200g on most days), lowered my protein intake slightly
and fat slightly as well but paying most attention to my total calorie intake.
Again the calorie intake stayed about 2200 calories/ day but I added a cheat day once a week (where macros and total calorie intake went out the window)and a carb up /refeed day once a week as well. I also did not eat super clean on the non cheat days. I ate deep fried, breaded chicken daily (grocery version of KFC), had whoppers twice a week, chips (baked though), pretzels etc. Again these are on my non cheat days.In just over 3 weeks, my weight went down from 177lbs to dipping just slightly below 170. My waist thankfully shrank the most from 27 1/2" to 26 1/2". At the suprailliac the caliper measurment went from 4 mm to 2mm. All these were taken on July 23rd. The pics below were from June 30th to July 23rd.

[Fatpanda]

You would be suprised to learn that bodybuilders do not require much more "nutrition" than Sedentary Individuals.


Influence of protein intake and training status on nitrogen balance and lean body mass
M. A. Tarnopolsky, J. D. MacDougall and S. A. Atkinson
Department of Physical Education and Pediatrics, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.

The present study examined the effects of training status (endurance exercise or body building) on nitrogen balance, body composition, and urea excretion during periods of habitual and altered protein intakes. Experiments were performed on six elite bodybuilders, six elite endurance athletes, and six sedentary controls during a 10-day period of normal protein intake followed by a 10-day period of altered protein intake. The nitrogen balance data revealed that bodybuilders required 1.12 times and endurance athletes required 1.67 times more daily protein than sedentary controls. Lean body mass (density) was maintained in bodybuilders consuming 1.05 g protein.kg-1.day-1. Endurance athletes excreted more total daily urea than either bodybuilders or controls. We conclude that bodybuilders during habitual training require a daily protein intake only slightly greater than that for sedentary individuals in the maintenance of lean body mass and that endurance athletes require daily protein intakes greater than either bodybuilders or sedentary individuals to meet the needs of protein catabolism during exercise.

and ? there have also been loads of studies that have claimed there is no need for greater than rda for athletes 

again who are we to believe ? - you only post studies when they back your claims.

[The True Adonis]

eat nothing by margarine for a month of course - easy.

the post by kelly baggot agrees that a junk food diet is unhealty  so why did you post it? to help prove how dumb you are for believing otherwise?

How or why would anyone go about doing that? That is ignorant and not feasible to even suggest.

Scroll back.  I said pick foods that you think are "dirty" and I will incorporate them daily along with whatever else I eat.  Read a bit more carefully.

[Fatpanda]

Nobody in his right mind would choose a diet made for masochists and fueled by the need to sell supplements over a well balanced diet that includes everything one likes to eat.

no one is disagreeing, but there is a health and mental aspects to eating nothi9ng but junk while dieting that have led to millions worldwide getting fat, yet adonis says they are fat because they are stupid  

tell me again why you hold him in such high esteem ?

[Fatpanda]

Timberwolf is 5`10 and 170-175 lbs in those pictures by the way. 
40 years of age.

and on drugs.

[mazrim]

Here is more info on Timberwolf.
Here is he about 5`10 165-170 lbs and his story of progression to get there.

My new diet experiment....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While I've always kept my bodyfat below 10% year round when trying to take it lower in the past I had always relied on eating clean, lowering my carbs (between 50-100g), keeping my protein high (minimum 200-250g) and keeping my fat intake at least 40 if not 50%. My calorie intake would invariably fall between 2100-2400 calories though I never really counted them.
Along with the diet I also did HIIT, whether it was on a treadmill or a boxing routine (speed bag/ ropework/ shadowboxing/ heavybag). Again I ate mostly plain chicken breasts, oatmeal, vegetables, protein shakes and tons of flax seed oil (averaging 6 tablespoons).

This time I decided to experiment.
I upped my carbs (150-200g on most days), lowered my protein intake slightly
and fat slightly as well but paying most attention to my total calorie intake.
Again the calorie intake stayed about 2200 calories/ day but I added a cheat day once a week (where macros and total calorie intake went out the window)and a carb up /refeed day once a week as well. I also did not eat super clean on the non cheat days. I ate deep fried, breaded chicken daily (grocery version of KFC), had whoppers twice a week, chips (baked though), pretzels etc. Again these are on my non cheat days.In just over 3 weeks, my weight went down from 177lbs to dipping just slightly below 170. My waist thankfully shrank the most from 27 1/2" to 26 1/2". At the suprailliac the caliper measurment went from 4 mm to 2mm. All these were taken on July 23rd. The pics below were from June 30th to July 23rd.

I'm glad you posted this one. I was going to suggest it.
I don't get why people are finding this so hard to believe. It is backed by science. Also, Layne Norton, Tommy Jeffers, and I would think most of their clients believe much of the same.

[d0nny2600]

and on drugs.

Correct

[Fatpanda]

How or why would anyone go about doing that? That is ignorant and not feasible to even suggest.

Scroll back.  I said pick foods that you think are "dirty" and I will incorporate them daily along with whatever else I eat.  Read a bit more carefully.

ok eat nothing but foods deep fried in trans fats, fries, apple pies, chicken, etc

post a pic eating every meal.

i won't hold my breath. we are all still waiting on the mcdonalds diet that never materialised.

[mazrim]

and on drugs.

<Maybe but not from my interactions with him unless he's been lying to me (possible of course). He said he would have if there were no legal ramifications, etc.
He has used 1-AD back in the day (I believe it was) and 6-OXO. Nothing else

[The True Adonis]

Timberwolf here at a LEANER 5`10 160-167 lbs.

[Fatpanda]

<Maybe but not from my interactions with him unless he's been lying to me (possible of course). He said he would have if there were no legal ramifications, etc.
He has used 1-AD back in the day (I believe it was) and 6-OXO. Nothing else

hahahahahaha trust me, he's lying.

[The True Adonis]

Some more from Kane:

First was taken in Mar at 170lbs.
Second in May at about the same weight.
Third was taken in June at 167lbs.
Last one was with a proffesional photographer at 165lbs.

[Relentless]

no one is disagreeing, but there is a health and mental aspects to eating nothi9ng but junk while dieting that have led to millions worldwide getting fat, yet adonis says they are fat because they are stupid  

tell me again why you hold him in such high esteem ?

TA only holds credibility with other disenchanted people.  He's a NEGATIVE force on this board and shouldn't be taken seriously.

[Relentless]

Some more from Kane:

First was taken in Mar at 170lbs.
Second in May at about the same weight.
Third was taken in June at 167lbs.
Last one was with a proffesional photographer at 165lbs.

What's the point of this again?  You can post all of the pics you want - it won't change a damn thing in the court of getbig opinion.