Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out

[Soul Crusher]

Something else i don't get.  how it that it cost 70$ an hour but workers are only paid $30? 

Who gets the other $40?

The cost to have an employee is incredible!  What the employee gets is only a portion of what it costs to have an employee.

For example:

$26.00 per hour salary +
7 1/2% per cent Social security contribution
Health Insurance
Union Stamps.
Workers Comp & Disability
FICA
 
These costs all total an average hourly wage to the employer of about 72.00 per hour.  Most employees have no idea how much it costs the employer to have them there.

[Deicide]

I blame the Jews...I always blame the Jews.

[Soul Crusher]

I blame the Jews...I always blame the Jews.

Why think and come up with rational and reasonable argument when you can always fall back on that stupidity?

Seriously, how stupid can you really be to say something like that? 

[MindSpin]

Why the fuck do we still have unions!?

[OzmO]

The cost to have an employee is incredible!  What the employee gets is only a portion of what it costs to have an employee.

For example:

$26.00 per hour salary +
7 1/2% per cent Social security contribution
Health Insurance
Union Stamps.
Workers Comp & Disability
FICA
 
These costs all total an average hourly wage to the employer of about 72.00 per hour.  Most employees have no idea how much it costs the employer to have them there.

this is f-ing appalling.

they have to pay over 100% of the wage for that shit?

While the foreign auto makers pay nearly half and produce a better product.   

[shootfighter1]

While the union protects the worker in some ways, the greedy unions actually take significant pay away from the worker.  We now see unions causing more problems than the traditional protection they provided.

Also, new employees may get $26/hr but many auto workers receive far more than that.  It is not at all uncommon for an auto worker to make $70-100,000 per year, as Troponin and I pointed out in a prior thread.

[Decker]

Profit sharing checks...so if the Big 3 aren't making a profit then workers don't get a check.  Besides that's bonus pay, not a set pay or promotion for workers.  That article is a little skewed.  The employess will not continue making that bonus money if the profit is not the same the next year.  I think it's very important to note that there is a reason that foreign companies fight off the UAW, I think it would be the cost issue.  Nobody here has a problem with the working man; it's simply an issue with both management and the UAW which is a problem the way it has been run.  I'm more inclined to believe guys like Troponin that have lived in that type of enviroment than any of us that is looking outside in. 

Profit sharing is not bonus pay, never has been.  It's considered part of gross compensation.

[Decker]

You people are missing the point. 

I think this error is grounded in the idea that the free market is somehow governing the employment contract.

That is just oversimplification.

Trade issues, health care, real market demands and a whole host of other concerns affect the employment arrangement.

You guys piss and moan about the average household income + benefits for the autoworkers.  That's how the goddam compensation should be.

The workers's standing and rights have been attacked and eroded for so long that we've become accustomed to living check to check with nothing but employee deferral programs to cover the costs of retirement, healthcare, dental care, or the like.

In the 1950s, a good job had decent pay, a pension, and other benefits to make life somewhat less hazardous.

There's been a loosely concerted effort to change all that.  Now, in the last several decades, we find labor's pay has stagnated while executive compensation has exploded in geometric proportions.

"Globalization" has helped this happen.  It's a race to the bottom for the american worker and we've been conditioned to view that as a determined course of history.   Sorry labor, suck on it.  While owners laugh all the way to the bank.

The course of human history has a loose connection to free labor.  It took us a few hundred years to overcome the seduction of slavery.  We peaked about 50 years ago.  And now we are devolving.

[Soul Crusher]

Since you have obviously never run a business yourself, you have no idea how expensive it is to be in business and keep people employed.

The fact of the matter is that anyone who is in business knows that the cost just in staying in business is getting too high in this country due to all these demands every busybody wants to impose on businesses without reality to the marketplace.

Between the increased taxes, energy costs, health care, materials, rents, it makes being business that much harder.  It is simply impossible to keep passing on these costs to the customer before the service or product you provide is unmarketable. 

The onerous pensions and labor related costs for the auto companies make their business model not workable unless you want cars all costing 45k and up.   

[loco]

I blame the Jews...I always blame the Jews.

Why think and come up with rational and reasonable argument when you can always fall back on that stupidity?

Seriously, how stupid can you really be to say something like that? 

Deicide is a Jew.     

[shootfighter1]

I hear what your saying Decker.  Part of the problem is the overal cost of good benefits.  Thats the whole healthcare argument.

But separating that out, the unions still have a negative overall impact these days.  They do not provide enough benefit to justify their costs.

I also agree that executive compensation is out of hand...but I have few suggestions on that point.

[Soul Crusher]

I hear what your saying Decker.  Part of the problem is the overal cost of good benefits.  Thats the whole healthcare argument.

But separating that out, the unions still have a negative overall impact these days.  They do not provide enough benefit to justify their costs.

I also agree that executive compensation is out of hand...but I have few suggestions on that point.

Read my earlier post.  The rising cost(s) just in being in business is killing this country.  Between taxes, energy costs, benes, health care, its impossible for business in this country to succeed.

Unless this is addressed, there will be many more layoffs and a depression.

If the global warming/union/sierra club types get their way, we are done for good and better go buy tents because that is where this is heading.   

[MRDUMPLING]

Profit sharing is not bonus pay, never has been.  It's considered part of gross compensation.

Gross compensation is not salary nor a a wage.  It is also not the same as benefits/ unions dues etc.  Most "bonuses" are based on the performance of a company in a quarter, which the article says.  That is how most bonuses are structured in this day and age.

We all recognize that CEOs are getting way too much.  I mentioned in another thread that the CEO of Chrysler(mainly) during the interviews was a pompous prick, the guy thought he was ENTITLED to the money.  At least the other two guys were doing a somewhat better job during the questioning. 

[Soul Crusher]

Gross compensation is not salary nor a a wage.  It is also not the same as benefits/ unions dues etc.  Most "bonuses" are based on the performance of a company in a quarter, which the article says.  That is how most bonuses are structured in this day and age.

We all recognize that CEOs are getting way too much.  I mentioned in another thread that the CEO of Chrysler(mainly) during the interviews was a pompous prick, the guy thought he was ENTITLED to the money.  At least the other two guys were doing a somewhat better job during the questioning. 

All of these overpaid slobs need to go. 

[Decker]

Gross compensation is not salary nor a a wage.  It is also not the same as benefits/ unions dues etc.  Most "bonuses" are based on the performance of a company in a quarter, which the article says.  That is how most bonuses are structured in this day and age.

We all recognize that CEOs are getting way too much.  I mentioned in another thread that the CEO of Chrysler(mainly) during the interviews was a pompous prick, the guy thought he was ENTITLED to the money.  At least the other two guys were doing a somewhat better job during the questioning. 

There are many different definitions of compensation and gross compensation does include salary or wages.  In some venues profit sharing contributions can be referred to as bonus compensation but that doesn't change the fact that it is not bonuse compensation.  I used to draft employment agreements so I know a bit about bonus compensation and currently I work as an ERISA attorney so I work with Profit Sharing plans all the time.

Yeah, I know what you mean about the CEO pay.  I wish I could reduce the problem with the Big 3 to that.  But there are so many variables in play as to why this train wreck happened that I'm having a hard time getting a grasp of it all.

[Hereford]

Decker,

How come the left always brings up the CEO's pay scale? So the head guy makes 25M a year. How many times over that is being dumped into the rathole of 'organized labor'?

Is that the only rally cry you guys have?

[Deicide]

Why think and come up with rational and reasonable argument when you can always fall back on that stupidity?

Seriously, how stupid can you really be to say something like that? 

No head for sarcasm...eh?

[Decker]

Decker,

How come the left always brings up the CEO's pay scale? So the head guy makes 25M a year. How many times over that is being dumped into the rathole of 'organized labor'?

Is that the only rally cry you guys have?

that's a really really good question.

I suppose if we were going to discuss this intelligently we'd look at the ledger to determine what the Big 3's annual expenses are and what the annual income is.  That would give us a first step to address what might be excessive and what isn't.

I point out the executive pay b/c it's grown by HUUUUUGE leaps and bounds over the years while the workers have accepted management's concessions for wage freezes.  That's still generalizing though.  Those aren't numbers.

That 'rathole' of organized labor is the backbone of this country.

By the way, why does management's shit smell better to you than labor's?

I'm sorry, why do you defend executives over the working class?

[Soul Crusher]

The problem with the unions is that most of the added costs they impose on the company does not benefit the worker actually performing the work.  Alot of that money goes into the pockets of the union bosses, organizers, and no shoe jobs.

The executives are WAAYYY overpaid.  I agree.  If they dont produce a profit, they should not be getting huge salaries and bonuses.  A bonus for what?  A bonus should only be for good performance, not failure. 

This is my gripe with corporate america, failure and success are both rewarded with grotesque amounts of money. 

If a company is in the toilet, no bonuses should be meeted out to anyone until a profit it generated.

[Decker]

The problem with the unions is that most of the added costs they impose on the company does not benefit the worker actually performing the work.  Alot of that money goes into the pockets of the union bosses, organizers, and no shoe jobs.

The executives are WAAYYY overpaid.  I agree.  If they dont produce a profit, they should not be getting huge salaries and bonuses.  A bonus for what?  A bonus should only be for good performance, not failure. 

This is my gripe with corporate america, failure and success are both rewarded with grotesque amounts of money. 

If a company is in the toilet, no bonuses should be meeted out to anyone until a profit it generated.

UAW President Ron Gettelfinger got a 2.3 percent raise in 2006, a year after taking a pay cut, a federal report released Thursday showed.

Gettelfinger earned $145,126 and received $13,405 in allowances and official expenses for a total compensation of $158,530. His 2006 salary was still slightly less than he made in 2004 -- $145,466 -- after he and other officers took a 2.5 percent pay cut in 2005. http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070413/AUTO01/704130353/1148

If $145,000 represents the money going into the pockets of the union bosses then how on earth is that breaking a company whose income whose income is billions?  (In fairness, the National UAW cost for wages is about 90 million for thousands of union workers).

A separate UAW report released last month showed that its membership had declined to its lowest level since World War II. Membership through the end of December fell 3.4 percent to 538,448, a loss of 18,651 members compared with 2005.

The unions are shrinking.

Unfortunately it's very easy for me to see bankruptcy, reorganization and lay-offs coming.

Maybe that's needed to kick the industry in the head to do things differently.

[shootfighter1]

The problem with the unions is that most of the added costs they impose on the company does not benefit the worker actually performing the work.  Alot of that money goes into the pockets of the union bosses, organizers, and no shoe jobs.
The executives are WAAYYY overpaid.  I agree.  If they dont produce a profit, they should not be getting huge salaries and bonuses.  A bonus for what?  A bonus should only be for good performance, not failure. 
This is my gripe with corporate america, failure and success are both rewarded with grotesque amounts of money. 
If a company is in the toilet, no bonuses should be meeted out to anyone until a profit it generated

Absolutely 33386.  I couldn't have put it any better.

[shootfighter1]

I hear today that Ford and (not sure if it was GM or chrysler) were making good profits overseas, significantly better than profits made here.  They equated that with higher union/employee costs.
I didn't get all the specifics.  Do the big 3 have plants outside the US?  How could profits be better overseas?

[Soul Crusher]

The problem with the unions is that most of the added costs they impose on the company does not benefit the worker actually performing the work.  Alot of that money goes into the pockets of the union bosses, organizers, and no shoe jobs.
The executives are WAAYYY overpaid.  I agree.  If they dont produce a profit, they should not be getting huge salaries and bonuses.  A bonus for what?  A bonus should only be for good performance, not failure. 
This is my gripe with corporate america, failure and success are both rewarded with grotesque amounts of money. 
If a company is in the toilet, no bonuses should be meeted out to anyone until a profit it generated

Absolutely 33386.  I couldn't have put it any better.

I have a few clients in the trades and the costs are literally mondblowing for union labor.  You cant believe what it costs to have painters on a union job.  These costs all get passed along to the end purchaser in the form of higher costs for the project or real estate.  Its terrible.

Whats worse, the Union thugs always show up and intimidate the workers and the company and look for handouts.  Its terrible.

[shootfighter1]

Why is Obama pushing for transparent union votes?  Shouldn't workers have the right to private ballots to avoid discrimination?  This seems obvious...what am I missing?

[Soul Crusher]

Why is Obama pushing for transparent union votes?  Shouldn't workers have the right to private ballots to avoid discrimination?  This seems obvious...what am I missing?

Because open voting makes it easier for the union organizers and bosses to intimidate the workers and members since they will know how the members themselves vote.

This is a huge payback to Big Labor and will destroy thousands of businesses instantly.  This is a disater in the making.