Pec training. Is it possible to train upper/lower pecs?

[turnerg31]

I'm a student of Exercise Physiology (Furman Univ. 1990) and this has been one of the debates that has raged on as long as I can remember.  Mostly between bodybuilders and those that claim to be educated on the subject.  Many claim that there is no way to differentiate between training your upper and lower pecs.  This may have been a subject debated on this forum before but I'd like to get some opinions from some of you.  What do you think? Upper? Lower? or just Pecs.  Can you differentiate and train each area of the pecs separately?

Pat

[JimmyJam1974]

I don't think you can isolate one ot the other but one can put emphases on upper/lower. First incline vs decline. Then the lifter has to make that mind-muscle connection

[turnerg31]

I don't think you can isolate one ot the other but one can put emphases on upper/lower. First incline vs decline. Then the lifter has to make that mind-muscle connection

So, if you can't isolate one or the other then what should  happen is if someone does inclines only to build the upper part of his chest, it should actually result in overall chest development? I'm just asking to get clarification on your response. It should not leave a person with a developed upper chest and underdeveloped lower chest.  (If you can't isolate one or the other)

[untamedsense]

Here's just my opinion...  I can flex my chest and make the muscles work and seemingly roll from bottom to top.  If you can do that then although you cannot completely isolate the pec muscles you definitely can emphasize different areas...and develop those areas.

[Faust]

Here's just my opinion...  I can flex my chest and make the muscles work and seemingly roll from bottom to top.  If you can do that then although you cannot completely isolate the pec muscles you definitely can emphasize different areas...and develop those areas.

I think so as well. You can not do an excercise where only one area is involved, but certain ex. put more stress on certain parts of the muscle (eg incline vs decline), thus they probably create more muscle damage and muscle growth there.

[Bobby]

of course you can!

try smith machine press with a flat bench and lower the bar to your adams apple instead of the middle of your chest.

from Larry Scott

Pivot Point # 4... Upper Pecs

I was at a trade show back east and... “Bernie” the design engineer for Body Masters had just read an article I had written about building deltoids. He couldn’t say enough about this new way of building dels. He was going on and on about it. I said, “Bernie if you think the dumbbell press is great, wait till I show you how to build upper pecs on the Smith machine.”

“Really”, he said locking pupils with mine.

“I’m not kidding Bernie. It’s even better than the delt idea. It’s a little hard to show you on a standard Smith but... man, is it good. If fact it makes my mouth water just to think of it.

Bernie’s eyes lit up, and while dragging me over to his Smith Machine... he said, “Come here show me what you mean”.

"The bar has to come all the way down to the neck."
“Lay down on the bench Bernie... No, wait a minute. Get up for a second. We need to adjust the bar and the bench so it just touches your neck at rest. I had him turn down the hooks so they were hanging free. Next I set the safety stops and put a block under the bench so he could barely get under the bar.

“That’s too low, Larry. I won’t even be able to get my head under it.”
“Yes you will. Turn your head to the side and slide sideways on the bench. The bar has to rest on your Adams Apple. This is important Bernie because at the end of each set the stops have to take the weight away from you precisely when you need it. And that’s down as low as possible. This super low position will give your upper pecs a pre-stretch they’ve never felt before. Furthermore you are going to be doing full reps followed by burns to complete failure and... I want you to do your burns down in the area of maximum stretch. By having the stops set at the very bottom not only does it give you incredible stretch but, it keeps from having to conserve energy to hang the weight up when you’re through with each set.


This is important, because the goal at the end of each set is to have nothing left to push the weight up and turn the hooks. I know it sounds picky but, trust me, you’ll see what I mean.”

Once I had Bernie “plugged in” under the bar, I said. “Lift your feet up off the floor and just hold them comfortably with your ankles crossed something like this”, showing him what to do.

I explained, “You’ve got to get the feet off the floor in order to relax the rib cage. With the rib cage relaxed, the lower chest muscles won’t have an anchor to pull against. All the work has to be done by the clavicular (upper) pecs even when the going gets tough. I’ll explain this more later.

Okay, slowly lower the bar, keeping the elbows up at least as high as the shoulders. Lower it all the way down to the neck. You want it to actually touch your neck.”

“Aarggh”, I heard him say. As his stretching upper pecs screamed in pain.

“Yeah that’s right”. I smiled. “Alright, press the bar and at the same time keep the elbows up as high as possible. Don’t drop the elbows. I know it’s hard but... keep ‘em up there. Be patient with yourself. Stay in the pain Zone. It’s where all the growth is. The bar will come up. Make your upper pecs carry you through the pain zone by keeping your elbows up high.”

“I can’t believe it Larry.” He gasped, “This is incredible,”
as he locked out on his 6th rep.

“No. Don’t get up.” I said. “ Now you’re ready for the best part. Time to burn out. Drop the bar right down to the neck and just bounce out 6 to 8 reps. Keep the elbows up high. Don’t let them come back down towards the chest. That’s it, right there” I encouraged as he bounced out 6 or 7 burns.

“Man, that is absolutely incredible. I have never felt anything like that before in my life.” he said as he crawled out from under the bar.I smiled inside. I knew he was going to say that... because... everyone says that... when they do it right.

“Remember what I said about the pain across your palm Bernie?””Yes, I almost forgot. The bar does cut across my palm. Kind of pinches the nerve.

“Yeah it does. Let me tell you how to get rid of it. You aren’t going to like this but, the problem is not your technique it’s your bar. It’s too small in diameter. The bar should be 2 inches thick. In fact, no offense Bernie but... these fancy Smith machines with the counter balance and all that stuff don’t even hold a candle to a plain old set of pipes bolted to the floor with a slightly larger set to slide up and down.

[dyslexic]

Uhhhhh... lets see. Anatomy shows only one pectoral muscle. At least on the surface.



Forget it. 

[turnerg31]

Uhhhhh... lets see. Anatomy shows only one pectoral muscle. At least on the surface.





Forget it. 

Hence the great debate.  One muscle = no way to differentiate between upper and lower pecs.  Then again, if the one muscle has two separate and distinguishable origins then maybe it is possible.  Me personally, I think it is possible.  Most of the non bodybuilder classmates I had don't see it the same way I do. 

Pat

[Exal]

The pectoralis is really two muscle heads http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/PectoralisSternal.html and http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/PectoralisClavicular.html

[heretostay13]

Even though only two muscles exist in the chest region (pectoralis major, pectoralis minor) I think it's a muscle that's an exception to the rule. Essentially it could be viewed as one muscle entirely, but it's unlike most other muscles in which force/weight is distributed across the muscle fibers themselves. At an incline angle obviously the brunt of the upper pectoralis major muscles take the load and contract more forcefully, a trait which is also attributable to the pectoralis minor and lower/decline movements. Then again, this is just the way I see it. Personally when I stray away from heavy flat and decline movements and replace them with upper chest/incline movements I lose total fullness, but that's just personal experience.

[thewickedtruth]

isolate the area? no...

put more EMPHASIS on the area? yes...

[DK II]

isolate the area? no...

put more EMPHASIS on the area? yes...

This is spot on.

[powerpack]

isolate the area? no...

put more EMPHASIS on the area? yes...

I also agree.
Inclines leave my upper pecs only sore.
Declines leave my lower middle pecs sore.
This shows more emphasis on different areas

[thewickedtruth]

I also agree.
Inclines leave my upper pecs only sore.
Declines leave my lower middle pecs sore.
This shows more emphasis on different areas

yep!

we can use the quads for example.. you have the vastus and medias lateralus, sartorious, and rectus femoris..  they ALL get hit during leg work and squats BUT, you can change the emphasis on WHICH AREA you hit by changing foot spacing, foot position (toes), heel elevation, etc. Either way... THEY ALL WORKING! 

[JasonH]

This is a very good debate and one that I have actually never come across in fifteen years of training. Quite possibly one of the most unique threads I've seen on Getbig or any other forum for that matter. Props to the guy for bringing it up. 

[DK II]

yep!

we can use the quads for example.. you have the vastus and medias lateralus, sartorious, and rectus femoris..  they ALL get hit during leg work and squats BUT, you can change the emphasis on WHICH AREA you hit by changing foot spacing, foot position (toes), heel elevation, etc. Either way... THEY ALL WORKING! 

Yes, i was about to add that too.

Even with Biceps or triceps, always all heads wil work, but yo can easily shift the emphasis from one part to the other.

[turnerg31]

Pecs being one muscle or two separate sections of the same muscle, it looks like most of us agree that according to the movement a person can "put more emphasis" on a certain area. By emphasizing this area you are concentrating the stress on that particular section of the muscle, therefore effectively being able to differentiate between training your upper and lower pecs.

If you look at the links that were given a few posts up you will see the difference in the two sections of muscle.  With different insertions it only seems reasonable that you can train or "emphasize" each section determined by the type and way in which you do an exercise.

I've had this debate many times over the years and sometimes very heated debates. Usually between someone who has read a few books and passed a few tests but has never really trained in their life. 

Thanks for participating.

Pat