Author Topic: News Keeps Getting Worse for Vitamins  (Read 5022 times)

Fatpanda

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Re: News Keeps Getting Worse for Vitamins
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2008, 08:28:49 AM »
no offense taken, if im wrong i will admit no big deal. Post the study you are referring to if you would. I have some other arguments but im busy right now, ill get back to you.

you'll be waiting quite a while for lovemusclemcmannus to post a study.
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suckmymuscle

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Re: News Keeps Getting Worse for Vitamins
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2008, 12:41:05 AM »
You fools they dont want you to take your vitamins so you get sick more often and buy medicines from the pharmaceutical companies..
These scientists are usualy funded by them, and if they produce research that shows differently to what their sponsors want, they stop the funding..
Dont buy into the anti vitamin bs, before you know it you will need a prescription to buy them, they already tried doing this in Australia..
Dont take everything authorative figures say as gosple.

  This is one of the points I brought up to "Necrosis" some time ago regarding his claim that vitamin E increases the risk of death. These studies are in large part funded by research institutes that receive large sums of funding from pharmaceutical corporations, making their studies immediately suspect. I like to "round" data before making claims. That is, analyse the result of many studies done over many year in different parts of the World on a subject and then deduce conclusions based on trends that are observable on most studies.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

MuscleMcMannus

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Re: News Keeps Getting Worse for Vitamins
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2008, 12:50:10 AM »
no offense taken, if im wrong i will admit no big deal. Post the study you are referring to if you would. I have some other arguments but im busy right now, ill get back to you.

It's not a study it's a book called Nutrition and Physical Degeneration.  Plus you can check out www.westonaprice.org which has a host of research on Weston Price.  I've been drinking raw milk for 3 years.  I personally know the benefits of it.  Also UC Davis is currently doing lots of research and has done lots of research on the health benefits of raw milk. 

Necrosis

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Re: News Keeps Getting Worse for Vitamins
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2008, 12:54:16 PM »
It's not a study it's a book called Nutrition and Physical Degeneration.  Plus you can check out www.westonaprice.org which has a host of research on Weston Price.  I've been drinking raw milk for 3 years.  I personally know the benefits of it.  Also UC Davis is currently doing lots of research and has done lots of research on the health benefits of raw milk. 


ok, books are not adequete material for this discussion, many biases,opinions etc can be made and things others may not agree with can be written, books are not relevant sources.

Post some of UC Davises work on raw milk for me if you would, he has lots apparently. Thanks dude.

Necrosis

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Re: News Keeps Getting Worse for Vitamins
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2008, 12:56:07 PM »
  This is one of the points I brought up to "Necrosis" some time ago regarding his claim that vitamin E increases the risk of death. These studies are in large part funded by research institutes that receive large sums of funding from pharmaceutical corporations, making their studies immediately suspect. I like to "round" data before making claims. That is, analyse the result of many studies done over many year in different parts of the World on a subject and then deduce conclusions based on trends that are observable on most studies.

SUCKMYMUSCLE


I take mixed tocopherol/tocotrienol product everyday, no one should take just alpha tocopherol. I was making a point about how you claimed fish oils are bad because of redox, so i posted a study showing detrimental effects of vitamine e.

You said that you did a study on yourself.

I agree with you about vitamine e.

Necrosis

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Re: News Keeps Getting Worse for Vitamins
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2008, 04:10:22 PM »
Well M squared, I guess you'll just have to watch the video then.




if it was true then why is scurvy cured? pellegra? beri beri?

bit of a far fetched claim.

Fatpanda

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Re: News Keeps Getting Worse for Vitamins
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2008, 05:23:25 PM »
if it was true then why is scurvy cured? pellegra? beri beri?

bit of a far fetched claim.
did you watch them all ?

scurvy was simply a vitamin deficiency, the claim is that cancer is also - a vitamin b17 deficiency.

i don't think its far fetched - especially when people have been cured by it.
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Necrosis

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Re: News Keeps Getting Worse for Vitamins
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2008, 09:13:29 PM »
did you watch them all ?

scurvy was simply a vitamin deficiency, the claim is that cancer is also - a vitamin b17 deficiency.

i don't think its far fetched - especially when people have been cured by it.

the video is rhetoric, i dont just documentaries nor do i get my medical information from them. Post actual research and i would change my opinion. However malignant cancers can invade every tissue of the body and thus make the symptoms of the particular cancer different. This is not the case with deficiency states for the most part, as they have well defined mechanisms. Neoplasms share irregular cell shape, mitotic division,malignancy other then that they are pretty diverse.

Necrosis

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Re: News Keeps Getting Worse for Vitamins
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2008, 09:21:40 PM »
1: Cancer. 1981 Mar 1;47(5 Suppl):1226-40.Links
Vitamins and cancer prevention: issues and dilemmas.Young VR, Newberne PM.
Vitamins are a class of organic compounds that are components of an adequate diet. They or their derivatives function as coenzymes, cellular antioxidants, and/or regulators of gene expression. Fourteen vitamins are recognized in human nutrition (Vitamins A, D, E, K, B1, B2, B6, B12, C, niacin, folacin, pantothenic acid, biotin, choline), with deficiencies or excesses in intake leading to changes in protein, nucleic acid, carbohydrates, fat and/or mineral metabolism. Thus, the integrity of physiological systems, including those associated with detoxification, cellular repair, immune processes, and neural and endocrine function, depends upon the nutritional and vitamin status of the host. For these reasons, it may be anticipated that the adequacy of the vitamin supply to cells and tissues would affect the development, progress, and outcome of cancers. In this review, the definition and functions of and requirements and recommended allowance for vitamins are discussed briefly before exploring the evidence, largely from studies in experimental animals, that indicates the nature of the link between vitamins and cancer. Although evidence based on studies in animal systems reveals that vitamin intake and status can modulate the outcome of experimental carcinogenesis, the findings are often conflicting and difficult to interpret. Furthermore, it is not yet possible to develop a suitable prediction of the role of the individual vitamins in tumor development. The significance of these observations for human nutrition and cancer prevention, particularly in reference to ascorbic acid (vitamin C), vitamin E, and B-complex vitamins is considered. Vitamin A and retinoid compounds are discussed elsewhere in the symposium. The many popular misconceptions and unsound advice concerning vitamins and health, including "fake" vitamins-pangamic acid ("vitamin B15") and laetrile ("vitamin B17")-are also discussed. On the basis of current evidence, it would be inappropriate to recommend either substantial changes in habitual vitamin intakes, as provided by an adequate, well-balanced diet, or promotion of megavitamin intakes, as a means of reducing risk from cancers in the human population. However, a prudent approach toward diet and food habits, as a means of better optimizing the health consequences of our complex lifestyle is to be recommended.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdalin

"Amygdalin (from Greek: ἀμυγδάλη amygdálē “almond”), C20H27NO11, is a glycoside initially isolated from the seeds of the tree Prunus dulcis, also known as bitter almonds, by Pierre-Jean Robiquet[1] and A. F. Boutron-Charlard in 1803, and subsequently investigated by Liebig and Wöhler in 1830, and others. Several other related species in the genus of Prunus, including apricot (Prunus armeniaca) and black cherry (Prunus serotina),[2] also contain amygdalin. It was promoted as a cancer cure by Ernst T. Krebs under the name "Vitamin B17", but studies have found it to be ineffective.

Amygdalin contains 6% cyanide by weight. The enzyme, beta-glucosidase, required for release of the cyanide from the amygdalin molecule, is present in human small intestine and in a variety of common foods which leads to an unpredictable and potentially lethal toxicity when amygdalin or Laetrile is taken orally.[7][8]

 2006 Cochrane review of the evidence concluded that there is no sound evidence that laetrile is an effective cancer treatment[9] and that there is considerable doubt about its safety.[9] It has not been approved for this use by the United States' Food and Drug Administration.[6] The U.S. government's National Institutes of Health evaluated the evidence, including case reports and a clinical trial, and concluded that they showed little effect.[10] A 1982 trial of 178 patients found that tumor size had increased in all patients. Minimal side effects were seen except in two patients who consumed bitter almonds and suffered from cyanide poisoning"

cochrane reviews are the pinnacle of research, things aint looking good for this non-vitamin.

perhaps you have some solid evidence? All ears.

Fatpanda

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Re: News Keeps Getting Worse for Vitamins
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2008, 12:38:28 AM »
1: Cancer. 1981 Mar 1;47(5 Suppl):1226-40.Links
Vitamins and cancer prevention: issues and dilemmas.Young VR, Newberne PM.
Vitamins are a class of organic compounds that are components of an adequate diet. They or their derivatives function as coenzymes, cellular antioxidants, and/or regulators of gene expression. Fourteen vitamins are recognized in human nutrition (Vitamins A, D, E, K, B1, B2, B6, B12, C, niacin, folacin, pantothenic acid, biotin, choline), with deficiencies or excesses in intake leading to changes in protein, nucleic acid, carbohydrates, fat and/or mineral metabolism. Thus, the integrity of physiological systems, including those associated with detoxification, cellular repair, immune processes, and neural and endocrine function, depends upon the nutritional and vitamin status of the host. For these reasons, it may be anticipated that the adequacy of the vitamin supply to cells and tissues would affect the development, progress, and outcome of cancers. In this review, the definition and functions of and requirements and recommended allowance for vitamins are discussed briefly before exploring the evidence, largely from studies in experimental animals, that indicates the nature of the link between vitamins and cancer. Although evidence based on studies in animal systems reveals that vitamin intake and status can modulate the outcome of experimental carcinogenesis, the findings are often conflicting and difficult to interpret. Furthermore, it is not yet possible to develop a suitable prediction of the role of the individual vitamins in tumor development. The significance of these observations for human nutrition and cancer prevention, particularly in reference to ascorbic acid (vitamin C), vitamin E, and B-complex vitamins is considered. Vitamin A and retinoid compounds are discussed elsewhere in the symposium. The many popular misconceptions and unsound advice concerning vitamins and health, including "fake" vitamins-pangamic acid ("vitamin B15") and laetrile ("vitamin B17")-are also discussed. On the basis of current evidence, it would be inappropriate to recommend either substantial changes in habitual vitamin intakes, as provided by an adequate, well-balanced diet, or promotion of megavitamin intakes, as a means of reducing risk from cancers in the human population. However, a prudent approach toward diet and food habits, as a means of better optimizing the health consequences of our complex lifestyle is to be recommended.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdalin

"Amygdalin (from Greek: ἀμυγδάλη amygdálē “almond”), C20H27NO11, is a glycoside initially isolated from the seeds of the tree Prunus dulcis, also known as bitter almonds, by Pierre-Jean Robiquet[1] and A. F. Boutron-Charlard in 1803, and subsequently investigated by Liebig and Wöhler in 1830, and others. Several other related species in the genus of Prunus, including apricot (Prunus armeniaca) and black cherry (Prunus serotina),[2] also contain amygdalin. It was promoted as a cancer cure by Ernst T. Krebs under the name "Vitamin B17", but studies have found it to be ineffective.

Amygdalin contains 6% cyanide by weight. The enzyme, beta-glucosidase, required for release of the cyanide from the amygdalin molecule, is present in human small intestine and in a variety of common foods which leads to an unpredictable and potentially lethal toxicity when amygdalin or Laetrile is taken orally.[7][8]

 2006 Cochrane review of the evidence concluded that there is no sound evidence that laetrile is an effective cancer treatment[9] and that there is considerable doubt about its safety.[9] It has not been approved for this use by the United States' Food and Drug Administration.[6] The U.S. government's National Institutes of Health evaluated the evidence, including case reports and a clinical trial, and concluded that they showed little effect.[10] A 1982 trial of 178 patients found that tumor size had increased in all patients. Minimal side effects were seen except in two patients who consumed bitter almonds and suffered from cyanide poisoning"

cochrane reviews are the pinnacle of research, things aint looking good for this non-vitamin.

perhaps you have some solid evidence? All ears.
that documentry discusses studies done, and talks to some of the people who have ben cured.

necrosis you will not get the peer reviewed study you are after in any medical journal, as any medical establishment recomending their patients take b17 to cure cancer would have their licence revoked immediately.

bigpharma would never allow a free natural cure to be found/announced for an multibillion dollar fund generating disease like cancer. hey would lose far too much from it.

the fda is controlled by big pharma as is the NIH, so you cannot take their recommendations as unbias.

At worse you take a harmless vitamin - at best it cures cancer - whats the problem with this ?
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Eisenherz

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Re: News Keeps Getting Worse for Vitamins
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2008, 01:02:06 AM »
that documentry discusses studies done, and talks to some of the people who have ben cured.

necrosis you will not get the peer reviewed study you are after in any medical journal, as any medical establishment recomending their patients take b17 to cure cancer would have their licence revoked immediately.

bigpharma would never allow a free natural cure to be found/announced for an multibillion dollar fund generating disease like cancer. hey would lose far too much from it.

the fda is controlled by big pharma as is the NIH, so you cannot take their recommendations as unbias.

At worse you take a harmless vitamin - at best it cures cancer - whats the problem with this ?

YES!

Fatpanda

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Re: News Keeps Getting Worse for Vitamins
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2008, 01:51:48 AM »

Thanks for helping me out, I gave up on this guy. He'll still take the Chemo though I bet, poor brainwashed bastard.
i just don't understand the negativity toward a natural vitamin  ???

people with cancer can still have chemo, etc but there would be no harm taking the vitamin too.

you have to ask why doctors/the medical establishment are all so against their patients taking a harmless substance - even suggesting someone takes this, would get their licence revoked. To me this speaks volumes.
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Necrosis

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Re: News Keeps Getting Worse for Vitamins
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2008, 12:08:34 PM »
i just don't understand the negativity toward a natural vitamin  ???

people with cancer can still have chemo, etc but there would be no harm taking the vitamin too.

you have to ask why doctors/the medical establishment are all so against their patients taking a harmless substance - even suggesting someone takes this, would get their licence revoked. To me this speaks volumes.

research has been done on the compound, it is not a vitamin. It has proven to be ineffective and possibly dangerous. There are a plethora of natural alternatives and supplements with have peer reviewed research stating their efficacy.

If a doctor was to prescribe this unproven potentially dangerous treatment for someone in jepordy of losing their life i would consider him a quack and irresponsible. They have to prescribe the current proven treatments, this protects the public from renegade doctors who can do as they please.


It meets no criteria for a vitamin, it was hauled out of russia and the states due to ineffectiveness and possible side effects. Who has been cured by this miracle compound? you are suggesting a huge conspiracy which makes me wonder dude. Do you think doctors would hide a cure to something that 1 in 3 people die from? do you think that they dont have family members they wish to cure and heal? do you think that people in pharmacy if dying from cancer would hide this truth.


Necrosis

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Re: News Keeps Getting Worse for Vitamins
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2008, 12:10:45 PM »

'Cause of vaccines, younger people are getting cancer more, 'cause there's cancer cells in there (& tons of mercury).

i will start deleting unintelligent drivel like this in the future. Please, this is a board where potential health altering information can be shared, post evidence for your claims and i have no problem.

Fatpanda

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Re: News Keeps Getting Worse for Vitamins
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2008, 12:40:59 PM »
research has been done on the compound, it is not a vitamin. It has proven to be ineffective and possibly dangerous. There are a plethora of natural alternatives and supplements with have peer reviewed research stating their efficacy.

If a doctor was to prescribe this unproven potentially dangerous treatment for someone in jepordy of losing their life i would consider him a quack and irresponsible. They have to prescribe the current proven treatments, this protects the public from renegade doctors who can do as they please.


It meets no criteria for a vitamin, it was hauled out of russia and the states due to ineffectiveness and possible side effects. Who has been cured by this miracle compound? you are suggesting a huge conspiracy which makes me wonder dude. Do you think doctors would hide a cure to something that 1 in 3 people die from? do you think that they dont have family members they wish to cure and heal? do you think that people in pharmacy if dying from cancer would hide this truth.



no i think doctors would prescribe it if they knew it worked, but are told it doesn't and anyone who does prescribe it will lose their licence.

i also think people in bigpharma would use it, but only the top people know about it. the rest of the plebs know nothing like you and joe average on the street.

watch all the parts of the documentry, it talks about studies that have been done, then make your comments.

also read http://www.worldwithoutcancer.org.uk/
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Necrosis

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Re: News Keeps Getting Worse for Vitamins
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2008, 12:44:28 PM »
no i think doctors would prescribe it if they knew it worked, but are told it doesn't and anyone who does prescribe it will lose their licence.

i also think people in bigpharma would use it, but only the top people know about it. the rest of the plebs know nothing like you and joe average on the street.

watch all the parts of the documentry, it talks about studies that have been done, then make your comments.

also read http://www.worldwithoutcancer.org.uk/

ok, ill watch the rest of it when i have time, i have seen the first half per se a while ago when i just watched it out of curiosity.

makes me wonder though with these people calling it a vitamin, raises some red flags in my book.

Fatpanda

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Re: News Keeps Getting Worse for Vitamins
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2008, 01:25:13 PM »
ok, ill watch the rest of it when i have time, i have seen the first half per se a while ago when i just watched it out of curiosity.

makes me wonder though with these people calling it a vitamin, raises some red flags in my book.

if it is proved to be a cure for cancer, you could indeed call it a vitamin, as the body needs it. :D
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