Jobs banks? Get paid not to work?? Your 'bailout' money at work

[Decker]

of course toyota lost money look at the economy thats not the point the point is in the same situation they are better off than the big 3.

I understand its complex but you dont see the problems with unions again do you think its ok for these employees to be able to turn down jobs while in the job banks and still get paid? you seem to not want to put any blame on them or the company.

7% of the private workforce is unionized.  93% is not.  This last 7% gets under your skin though.

[Dan-O]

What are you talking about?  Where have I stated anything about Big Karl?

It's you free marketeers that live in a perpetual fantasy where the magic of markets govern...and should govern.

Sorry pal, that ain't how it works.

It hasn't worked that way in this country for almost 90 years.

Every one of your posts reeks of Big Karl, whether your actually invoke his name or not.

[Decker]

Every one of your posts reeks of Big Karl, whether your actually invoke his name or not.

Would you please elaborate?

Which Marxian themes am I riffing on in my posts?

[Dan-O]

Would you please elaborate?

Which Marxian themes am I riffing on in my posts?

I'll have to cite you chapter and verse later.

Right now I'm on vacation all week (and half of the next) and I'm playing online games and can't be bothered with such trivial matters.  And all that crap is a little rusty in my head because I've tried to block it out from all those years ago.  But thanks to you it's all coming back.

[tonymctones]

7% of the private workforce is unionized.  93% is not.  This last 7% gets under your skin though.

way to side step the issue and question

of course toyota lost money look at the economy thats not the point the point is in the same situation they are better off than the big 3.

I understand its complex but you dont see the problems with unions again do you think its ok for these employees to be able to turn down jobs while in the job banks and still get paid? you seem to not want to put any blame on them or the company.

again they are in the same situation in the same market with the same economy and are better off than the big 3

i didnt say anything about unions in this post did I?
No i didnt i simply posed a question to you so kindly answer the question.

[danielson]

I find it ironic that the same people who complain about these guys doing crosswords at work are posting on Getbig all day at work.

[Soul Crusher]

I find it ironic that the same people who complain about these guys doing crosswords at work are posting on Getbig all day at work.

I own my own business and can do whatever I like. 

[danielson]

I own my own business and can do whatever I like. 

So can the autoworkers, it's in their contracts.

[tonymctones]

So can the autoworkers, it's in their contracts.

right but they should go under if those practices in the contracts lead to loses either that or the lose frivalous expenditures.

[Tre]

they also apparently can turn down a job if offered and still be allowed to collect their wages... fuking we should be rioting.

Exactly - why take a job for $20/hour and no benefits when you can make $30/hour plus benefits without doing anything all day?

Communism at its finest, folks. 

[Tre]

Do you really think that your 'lean and mean' talk about competition is something new?

Have you stopped for one minute and thought through the ramifications of your 'lean and mean' proposals?

I don't think you have.

It's the Unions that built the middle class of this country.

All your palliatives do is ensure the result that our middle class will disappear and a more desperate life will await our working class.

Congratulations!  There's the result of your lean and mean global competition.

But Decker, would you agree that we have failed to cultivate new industries that can absorb all our high school graduates? 

Today, we're preparing them for entry into the service sector and little else. 

My issue is this, though - an assembly-line worker in Indiana doesn't need to be making $120,000/year to be 'middle class'.  He'll be just fine making $80-90,000. 

[Hereford]

7% of the private workforce is unionized.  93% is not.  This last 7% gets under your skin though.

So Mr Decker, as per your previous statement...

This 7% is responsible for the upkeep and continuation of the middle class, right?

If they were to dissappear, the middle class as we know it would vanish, correct?

[Soul Crusher]

So can the autoworkers, it's in their contracts.

But I dont have to buy the cars they make.  Thats the difference.

[MRDUMPLING]

Yes, the Unions helped to create the middle class as we know it today.  The thing is Decker, the Unions are not what they used to be.  There is no getting around that. 

[Soul Crusher]

Yes, the Unions helped to create the middle class as we know it today.  The thing is Decker, the Unions are not what they used to be.  There is no getting around that. 

I have many clients in the trades.  Unions are by and large shakedown operations that only drive up the cost of construction and result in month long projects turning into multi-year long projects that run way over budget.

The worst though, has to be teachers & civil service unions.  Why do government workers need to be unionized?



 

[MRDUMPLING]

I have many clients in the trades.  Unions are by and large shakedown operations that only drive up the cost of construction and result in month long projects turning into multi-year long projects that run way over budget.

The worst though, has to be teachers & civil service unions.  Why do government workers need to be unionized?



 

That's what I have never understood...an exgirlfriend of mine is a teacher and she says even without the Unions it would be damn near impossible for the school board to fire her.  Then again, if it weren't for the unions teachers wouldn't get paid during the summer.  No work..and all pay for the 3 best months to have off every year.  In those regards I'm jealous.   

Let's not forget public ballots that the unions are pushing through now.  Whose business is it if you voted for against something regarding the business?  Did you know a Union representative can come in and talk to employees about joining a union, but the employer cannot legally talk to that same employee about the potential cons of joining said union? 

I agree that in the past the unions helped, just not to the extent that Decker is proposing.  Nowadays they are just like our federal government, bloated, and way too big and intrusive for their own good.  They are obviously a part of the probelm now...they are not a solution.

[240 is Back]

teacher tenure as a result of unions is a 2-edged sword.

On the one hand, you have teachers who suck, who ae guaranteed contracts/jobs for 27 years once they get thru 3 years.  They're making 55k a year no matter how mediocre they are, because they just show up.

On the other hand, you have principals/admin who would fire the top third of experienced teachers in their school (making 60 to 65k) and replace them with new college grads (making 29 to 33k) in order to make their school budgets and grow their own bonuses.

I don't know what the solution is.  Both ways invite abuses.

[Soul Crusher]

How do private schools manage?

[240 is Back]

How do private schools manage?

the religious ones pay about 2/3 of what the public schools do.  I know locally, some offer jobs at 19k to 22k for starting.  No thanks!

The high-end private schools charge tuition.  Their teachers all have masters or phds, even if they're only teaching 4th grade english.  I don't konw what they earn.  I'd guess it's 20% or more higher than public shcool teachers, but negotiated on a deal-by-deal basis.  No standard pay scale that I've ever heard of, but one may exist.

[MRDUMPLING]

I know what you mean about mediocre teachers.  I unfortunately know somebody that when she goes into work still hungover or drunk she just gives her students a "quiet day" and doesn't even give a lesson.  Shows how irresponsible she is and how our kids are really being taught.  This bitch truly disgusts me.  

[240 is Back]

I know what you mean about mediocre teachers.  I unfortunately know somebody that when she goes into work still hungover or drunk she just gives her students a "quiet day" and doesn't even give a lesson.  Shows how irresponsible she is and how our kids are really being taught.  This bitch truly disgusts me.  

I saw some of that as a teacher.  More than that, I saw the 40-year old women who wouldn't last 5 minutes in the REAL workforce.  They were fat, slow, lazy, inefficient, perpetual whiners who just reeked of waste.  There are dozens of them in every staff on every school in America.  They have 100% job security as long as they keep showing up.  They waste time, they steal their paychecks, and they do a shitty job because they are LAZY. 

[Decker]

But Decker, would you agree that we have failed to cultivate new industries that can absorb all our high school graduates? 

Today, we're preparing them for entry into the service sector and little else. 

My issue is this, though - an assembly-line worker in Indiana doesn't need to be making $120,000/year to be 'middle class'.  He'll be just fine making $80-90,000. 

This situation - education/market demands of employment - has been made possible by the globalization push.  It's an excellent coverstory for low pay, no benefits, relaxed environmental regs, relaxed labor regs and so on.

It's become paramount to our nation to destroy the living/working conditions to the extent that they rival those of our 3rd world competitors...where there is no labor law, no environmental concern, no safety concerns and consequently a quality of life scarcely better than that of a prisoner.

The manufacturing base of this country is drying up.  Why?  B/c it's cheaper for the monied elites to farm the work out to these slave labor countries.  If there is little manufacturing going on here, then all the jobs related to that end also dry up.

But what about those last few union workers in manufacturing?  They are a drag on the bottom line.  Why pay a livable wage with benefits when there are Indian children who do the job for pennies on the dollar, no benefits, no safety or environmental concerns.

It took great effort to make our middle class.  It didn't happen by accident.  Now we got people chomping at the bit to put the death blow on it for the sake of being competitive....as if that were a natural result of the free market.

It is not the fault of unions that this country is losing its status and competitive edge.  That decision was made a long time ago.

[Soul Crusher]

I saw some of that as a teacher.  More than that, I saw the 40-year old women who wouldn't last 5 minutes in the REAL workforce.  They were fat, slow, lazy, inefficient, perpetual whiners who just reeked of waste.  There are dozens of them in every staff on every school in America.  They have 100% job security as long as they keep showing up.  They waste time, they steal their paychecks, and they do a shitty job because they are LAZY. 

Where I live teachers can make 100k per year.

They complain about grading papers! 

[Soul Crusher]

This situation - education/market demands of employment - has been made possible by the globalization push.  It's an excellent coverstory for low pay, no benefits, relaxed environmental regs, relaxed labor regs and so on.

It's become paramount to our nation to destroy the living/working conditions to the extent that they rival those of our 3rd world competitors...where there is no labor law, no environmental concern, no safety concerns and consequently a quality of life scarcely better than that of a prisoner.

The manufacturing base of this country is drying up.  Why?  B/c it's cheaper for the monied elites to farm the work out to these slave labor countries.  If there is little manufacturing going on here, then all the jobs related to that end also dry up.

But what about those last few union workers in manufacturing?  They are a drag on the bottom line.  Why pay a livable wage with benefits when there are Indian children who do the job for pennies on the dollar, no benefits, no safety or environmental concerns.

It took great effort to make our middle class.  It didn't happen by accident.  Now we got people chomping at the bit to put the death blow on it for the sake of being competitive....as if that were a natural result of the free market.

It is not the fault of unions that this country is losing its status and competitive edge.  That decision was made a long time ago.

We are not going back to the 1950's, whether you like it or not. 

The bottom line is that people will adapt and innovate or starve.

Clinging on to nostalgic times that you or I did not live in is useless and no productive.     

[Decker]

So Mr Decker, as per your previous statement...

This 7% is responsible for the upkeep and continuation of the middle class, right?

If they were to dissappear, the middle class as we know it would vanish, correct?

No b/c the fruits of their tremendous effort still exist:

the 40 hour work week--5 day/8hour workdays

Overtime pay

On-the-job Safety Standards

Severance pay

Maternity leave

And that's off the top of my head.

In other words Matey, we are riding on the coattails of their accomplishments.

Yet these unions are a threat to us.