was Paul Anderson NATURAL?????????

[NarcissisticDeity]

yes, an adolescent just starting to work out and eat right.  but these were already national level bodybuilders.

Again that's not realistic even today it's just nonsense 30-40 pounds , Ziegler was started guys out at York with 5mg tabs and they had little effect

[timfogarty]

I just dont believe he would use steroids.He was a REAL Christian,not a Catholic priest Christian.

why would you assume that someone in the 50s would see dianabol tablets as any more moral or immoral than you might see ephedrine or caffeine tablets?

[NarcissisticDeity]

yes, an adolescent just starting to work out and eat right.  but these were already national level bodybuilders.


there is no way to know who used what when, but there is certainly plenty of circumstantial evidence that means that it was possible that top bodybuilders were using in the 1940s.

I disagree , there would at least be anecdotal evidence of guys who did use , are who knew guys were using , but again there are no such stories until Ziegler and the guys at York , from all the research it doesn't look like drugs made into the West coast scene until 1960 and then they say the guys really started to get bigger

I mean the Russians were using it 1954 for weight lifters and it wasn't until then Ziegler learned of it and went to work at Ciba

[timfogarty]

Again that's not realistic even today it's just nonsense 30-40 pounds , Ziegler was started guys out at York with 5mg tabs and they had little effect

doctors and scientists tend to be cautious, gym owners not so much.  and the drug was injectable testosterone esters.  they wouldn't be injecting 1/10 of a cc.

[NarcissisticDeity]

doctors and scientists tend to be cautious, gym owners not so much.  and the drug was injectable testosterone esters.  they wouldn't be injecting 1/10 of a cc.

Again yet NO anecdotal evidence what so ever , just a mention in Strength & Health , I think we'd hear more at least from a layman's prospective and news would travel fast especially if it worked like it did in the late 50s

[timfogarty]

I disagree , there would at least be anecdotal evidence of guys who did use , are who knew guys were using , but again there are no such stories until Ziegler and the guys at York ,

Dan Duchaine had done a lot of digging and was convinced that Grimek was juicing prior to his first Mr A win.  But where that research is today, I don't know.

[dr.chimps]

Again yet NO anecdotal evidence what so ever , just a mention in Strength & Health , I think we'd hear more at least from a layman's prospective and news would travel fast especially if it worked like it did in the late 50s

Uh, that would be 'evidence' of an anecdotal nature. 

[timfogarty]

Again yet NO anecdotal evidence what so ever , just a mention in Strength & Health

not one, but three mentions in Strength and Health is exactly that, anecdotal evidence.  It's not proof, but it certainly indicates that it is in the realm of possibilities.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Dan Duchaine had done a lot of digging and was convinced that Grimek was juicing prior to his first Mr A win.  But where that research is today, I don't know.

Grimek was Bob Hoffman's poster boy at York and where did Ziegler go to test out the D-bal? York

[NarcissisticDeity]

Uh, that would be 'evidence' of an anecdotal nature. 

I meant than just the mention in Strength & Health 

[NarcissisticDeity]

not one, but three mentions in Strength and Health is exactly that, anecdotal evidence.  It's not proof, but it certainly indicates that it is in the realm of possibilities.

What's the context? does it elaborate I was always curious about that , I have old Strength & Healths I don't think from the 30s though and old Your Physique and no mentions either , well in the ones I have at least

[timfogarty]

Grimek was Bob Hoffman's poster boy at York and where did Ziegler go to test out the D-bal? York

what's your point?   Grimek worked at York in the 30s.   Test esters mentioned in S&H in 38.  Grimek wins Mr A in 40 and 41.   By the time Ziegler goes to York in the mid to late 50s, Grimek was already editor in chief of S&H.

[timfogarty]

What's the context? does it elaborate I was always curious about that , I have old Strength & Healths I don't think from the 30s though and old Your Physique and no mentions either , well in the ones I have at least

the 1938 reference was a letter to the editor

YP never wrote anything new in the early 40s, just lifted articles from European mags.

[NarcissisticDeity]

what's your point?   Grimek worked at York in the 30s.   Test esters mentioned in S&H in 38.  Grimek wins Mr A in 40 and 41.   By the time Ziegler goes to York in the mid to late 50s, Grimek was already editor in chief of S&H.

My point is Grimek didn't take anything until Ziegler brought d-bols to York , if they were already using something before Ziegler brought it there he would have mentioned it , he introduced the world to d-bol at York but you're claiming Grimek was already using

[Ursus]

mytostatin blockers are mentioned today in MD.

They dont exist. Well commercially.

Ever think it was gimickky type bullshit.

Anyway in 1940s the world was at war, I doubt people were spending money on fucking test.

I personally think if you believe that you are a fool

[MuscleMcMannus]

Dan Duchaine had done a lot of digging and was convinced that Grimek was juicing prior to his first Mr A win.  But where that research is today, I don't know.

  All this is in the new book Muscle, Smoke, and Mirrors.  I'll retype the info when I get a chance.  There is no way Paul Anderson was using steroids.  That's like saying Paery Rader was and if you think that you know  nothing about the history of the game during that era.  Grimek used dianabol but it was for a brief time period and he didn't like the way it made him feel.  Atleast that's waht is says and much more in the book Im' reading. 

According to John Fair this is what Grimek wrote:
How's the anabolic working on you?  It does nothing for me.  The fellows claimed it did nothing for them, yet eaach did good or better than they've done in the past in spite of LOSING.  I have not discussed it with Hoffman yet as to how much he gave, and to whom he gave the tablets, to see if those who took it were the ones who did better in the past.

Muscle Smoke and Mirrors...........

[MuscleMcMannus]

My point is Grimek didn't take anything until Ziegler brought d-bols to York , if they were already using something before Ziegler brought it there he would have mentioned it , he introduced the world to d-bol at York but you're claiming Grimek was already using

You are talking out of your ass. 

Dianabol was released around 1958 and primarily marketed at the medical community for rehabilitation treatment.  According to John Fair, CIBA, knowing Ziegler's affiliation with York, approached him to test the product on athletes.  He responded by giving John Grimek a "half bushel basket" full of pills and the taks of finding some volunteers.  As a former Olympic weightlifter and bodybuildin icon, Ziegler, Grimek stated the situation in late 1959 where he could find no immediate volunteers and that Hoffman wouldn't be on board being it was so close to the 1960 Olympic Games in Rome.  Hoffman did give the go ahead for York trainer Dick Smith, to escort a young Bill March to Ziegler in 1959.  March was to be trained by Ziegler using isometrics, positive thinking therapy, and an array of Hoffman's supplements.  According to sports writer, Bob Dvorchak, Ziegler didn't just introduce March to training on an early power rack, he also gave hiim a "packet of experimental blue pills".  Dvorchak wrote an extensive 4 part series on steroids in October 0f 2005 for the Pitssburg Post Gazette.  He stated that March conceded to using the drug in late 1959, as opposed to mid 1960 as some have proposed.  Whether many of the athletes were led to believe, or simply chose to look upon Dianabol as a vitamin, Ziegler still knew he was dealing with a drug.  Dvorchak quoted Dick Smith in part 1 of his series on steroids.  "Doc wanted to do it right.  He was conducting a clinical test......"  Ziegler wanted the athletes to adhere to the rules of no  more than 15/mg per day.  The drugs were cycled 6 weeks on, followed by 5 days off, with periodic liver testing.  Ziegler may have been cautious with the health of the athletes but his manner of experimentation would be heavily criticized later.   

Muscle Smoke and Mirrors by Randy Roach.




All this infor and cool historical analysis is int he book.  I keep touting this book because it's an amazing read and Volume II is coming out soon.  Seriously, guys it is fascinating the history behind this and many other topics. 

[JimmyJam1974]

Was Arn Anderson natural?

[oldtimer1]

Testosterone was available in the 1940's.  There is zero proof anyone involved in the strength sports was using it for that purpose in the 40's.  The earliest rumors of anyone using it was the late 50's and it was the Russian Olympic lifters.  It was also rumored that they were having severe prostate enlargement shown by their problems urinating.  Dianabol was the first anabolic steroid created to minimize the androgenic properties of straight testosterone. It reduced the prostate problems of long term high dose testosterone. 

Guys don't listen to these fans of drugs who rationalize that anyone through time used drugs. They know in their very soul that deep down they would look like nothing without using drugs. It's all they have in life is their drug gained body.  Without drugs they have nothing. These simpletons will have you believe that the risks are on par with using aspirin once a week.  They will also have you believe that every elite athlete uses drugs and that's not true by a long shot. It's just justification for their own use. 

Paul Anderson was incredibly strong through most of his life without drugs.  Steve Reeves had an awesome build from 16 till 60.  It's terrible that cancer took him away.

Using bodybuilding drugs is a risk to health.  There are guys using heroin for 10 years but that doesn't mean it isn't a risk to health.  Many steroid users cycle on and off for 10 to 20 years.  Most quit due to financial, health or legal problems.  Most realize they threw away any chance of success in life because they chased the syringe to try to impress others.

[tbombz]

There is a HUGE differance between church going Bible thumpers and a guy who has dedicated his life to helping kids.I just dont believe he would use steroids.He was a REAL Christian,not a Catholic priest Christian.

and why does a belief in god and having a good heart mean a person would not use steroids?

[tbombz]

mytostatin blockers are mentioned today in MD.

They dont exist. Well commercially.

Ever think it was gimickky type bullshit.

Anyway in 1940s the world was at war, I doubt people were spending money on fucking test.

I personally think if you believe that you are a fool

ok but i bet if dorian yates talk to you face to face and told you he never used any kind of steroidal substance during his entire bodybuilding career, you would 100% take him at his word.

[NarcissisticDeity]

You are talking out of your ass. 

Dianabol was released around 1958 and primarily marketed at the medical community for rehabilitation treatment.  According to John Fair, CIBA, knowing Ziegler's affiliation with York, approached him to test the product on athletes.  He responded by giving John Grimek a "half bushel basket" full of pills and the taks of finding some volunteers.  As a former Olympic weightlifter and bodybuildin icon, Ziegler, Grimek stated the situation in late 1959 where he could find no immediate volunteers and that Hoffman wouldn't be on board being it was so close to the 1960 Olympic Games in Rome.  Hoffman did give the go ahead for York trainer Dick Smith, to escort a young Bill March to Ziegler in 1959.  March was to be trained by Ziegler using isometrics, positive thinking therapy, and an array of Hoffman's supplements.  According to sports writer, Bob Dvorchak, Ziegler didn't just introduce March to training on an early power rack, he also gave hiim a "packet of experimental blue pills".  Dvorchak wrote an extensive 4 part series on steroids in October 0f 2005 for the Pitssburg Post Gazette.  He stated that March conceded to using the drug in late 1959, as opposed to mid 1960 as some have proposed.  Whether many of the athletes were led to believe, or simply chose to look upon Dianabol as a vitamin, Ziegler still knew he was dealing with a drug.  Dvorchak quoted Dick Smith in part 1 of his series on steroids.  "Doc wanted to do it right.  He was conducting a clinical test......"  Ziegler wanted the athletes to adhere to the rules of no  more than 15/mg per day.  The drugs were cycled 6 weeks on, followed by 5 days off, with periodic liver testing.  Ziegler may have been cautious with the health of the athletes but his manner of experimentation would be heavily criticized later.   

Muscle Smoke and Mirrors by Randy Roach.




All this infor and cool historical analysis is int he book.  I keep touting this book because it's an amazing read and Volume II is coming out soon.  Seriously, guys it is fascinating the history behind this and many other topics. 

How am I talking out my ass? I agree with everything you just typed?  did you even read my posts?

[NarcissisticDeity]

ok but i bet if dorian yates talk to you face to face and told you he never used any kind of steroidal substance during his entire bodybuilding career, you would 100% take him at his word.

He's admitted several times he used and they asked him if 1993 was the first year he experimented with GH due to the huge difference in weight from 1992 to 1993 and he said NO he used it before .

[tbombz]

He's admitted several times he used and they asked him if 1993 was the first year he experimented with GH due to the huge difference in weight from 1992 to 1993 and he said NO he used it before .

and goudy would still believ him 

[NarcissisticDeity]

Testosterone was available in the 1940's.  There is zero proof anyone involved in the strength sports was using it for that purpose in the 40's.  The earliest rumors of anyone using it was the late 50's and it was the Russian Olympic lifters.  It was also rumored that they were having severe prostate enlargement shown by their problems urinating.  Dianabol was the first anabolic steroid created to minimize the androgenic properties of straight testosterone. It reduced the prostate problems of long term high dose testosterone. 

Guys don't listen to these fans of drugs who rationalize that anyone through time used drugs. They know in their very soul that deep down they would look like nothing without using drugs. It's all they have in life is their drug gained body.  Without drugs they have nothing. These simpletons will have you believe that the risks are on par with using aspirin once a week.  They will also have you believe that every elite athlete uses drugs and that's not true by a long shot. It's just justification for their own use. 

Paul Anderson was incredibly strong through most of his life without drugs.  Steve Reeves had an awesome build from 16 till 60.  It's terrible that cancer took him away.

Using bodybuilding drugs is a risk to health.  There are guys using heroin for 10 years but that doesn't mean it isn't a risk to health.  Many steroid users cycle on and off for 10 to 20 years.  Most quit due to financial, health or legal problems.  Most realize they threw away any chance of success in life because they chased the syringe to try to impress others.

Great post ! and I agree with you 100%