Author Topic: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance  (Read 12997 times)

Dos Equis

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Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« on: January 06, 2009, 10:01:46 AM »
He's right.

Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
By Jordan Lorence
Special to CNN
     
Editor's note: Jordan Lorence is senior legal counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund, a nonprofit organization of Christian attorneys. He has litigated religious liberty and free speech cases since 1984, including the Southworth case before the U.S. Supreme Court in 1999, involving mandatory student fees at public universities, and a 2004 case that resulted in a California Supreme Court ruling that marriage licenses issued by San Francisco to same-sex couples were invalid.

SCOTTSDALE, Arizona (CNN) -- Proponents of redefining marriage couldn't wait for the new president to be sworn in before demanding that he erase from the inauguration ceremony a prominent American who disagrees with them.

The target of their rhetorical bombardment is Rick Warren, the popular Christian pastor from Southern California.

President-elect Barack Obama has asked Warren to give the invocation at his inauguration. Not so fast, cries Kathryn Kolbert, head of People for the American Way, an organization that claims to advance equality and freedom of speech and religion (but not for Rick Warren and those who agree with his marriage views) in a piece published on CNN.com.

Warren's grave sin? Along with 52 percent of California voters, he supported California's Proposition 8, which affirmed the definition of marriage as between one man and one woman. What a radical!

Though Warren will only be praying for the country's future (not giving a speech about marriage), Kolbert and others are pressuring Obama to set a precedent for his administration of publicly shunning someone who supports the traditional definition of marriage.

They want people like Warren silenced and ostracized for their "hate speech," defined today as disagreeing with their agenda to impose a redefinition of marriage on an unwilling America. Obama, to his credit, has resisted their strident demands.

The attacks on Warren are the latest in a series of coercive, intimidating attacks on supporters of traditional marriage.

Now, activists have ramped up their strong-arm tactics by pushing the president-elect to ban Warren from appearing at the inauguration.

This is amazingly audacious, in light of the fact that on marriage, the overwhelming majority of Americans and, indeed, humanity, agrees with Warren. Americans have voted to preserve marriage in all 30 states where it has been on the ballot by an average vote of more than 65 percent.

The collective experience and wisdom of every major civilization from the dawn of time agrees that societies function best and children are best protected when marriage is defined as between one man and one woman. Warren and those who agree with him want all nations to experience these benefits of marriage when it is rightly defined and consistently practiced.

Ironically, Obama has repeatedly stated that he agrees "that marriage is the union between a man and a woman." Does Kolbert question his fitness to serve as president in light of his allegedly "bigoted" views on marriage?

Kolbert brazenly denies that she and other activists desire to silence pastors like Warren because of their marriage views. She is indignant that Warren and others spread the "big lie" that redefining marriage would threaten the freedom of speech and religious liberties of those who hold the view shared by the vast majority of Americans.

Her argument is disarming in its pure duplicity. Part of Kolbert's case against Warren, who she thinks should not be speaking at such an important public ceremony, is that he believes that folks like her are working to ban people like him from speaking at public ceremonies. Thus, the "big lie" becomes an obvious truth.

This is really all about ideological purity -- and purging. Are the activists proposing that no one should be permitted to speak at the inauguration if they hold beliefs on marriage contrary to hers and her ideological bedfellows? How can publicly snubbing the influential and respected Warren advance what Kolbert calls "the values of unity and respect ... on which President-elect Obama campaigned?"

It won't. But it will surely send a message to those who believe in marriage, that they will be viciously attacked for expressing, or merely believing, that marriage is defined as between one man and one woman. Ms. Kolbert provides just the latest example of how the forces of "tolerance" and "diversity" quickly abandon their principles of "live and let live" when somebody disagrees with them.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Jordan Lorence.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/06/lorence.warren/index.html

MCWAY

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2009, 11:00:20 AM »
AAAAAAAAMEN!!!!!

No presidental candidate, Democratic or Republican, has supported same-sex "marriage", though Obama is more likely to stand idly by and let his far-left supporters redefine marriage.

The great thing about the Prop. 8 issue in California is that it FINALLY unmasked these so-called poster boys for "tolerance" and
"diversity" as being anything but that.

We've seen the blacklisting, the church-vandalizing (except for black, Latino, and other churches of which gay activists are afraid), and the racial slurs (even toward black homosexuals) done by SOME of these folks. And, the more they show their behinds, the more they hurt their own cause.


Straw Man

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2009, 11:02:39 AM »
I'm sure you can understand that it might be hard for some people to be tolerant of this guy after he basically said they were the equivalent of child molesters.


Dos Equis

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2009, 11:18:11 AM »
AAAAAAAAMEN!!!!!

No presidental candidate, Democratic or Republican, has supported same-sex "marriage", though Obama is more likely to stand idly by and let his far-left supporters redefine marriage.

The great thing about the Prop. 8 issue in California is that it FINALLY unmasked these so-called poster boys for "tolerance" and
"diversity" as being anything but that.

We've seen the blacklisting, the church-vandalizing (except for black, Latino, and other churches of which gay activists are afraid), and the racial slurs (even toward black homosexuals) done by SOME of these folks. And, the more they show their behinds, the more they hurt their own cause.



True.  I find it troubling that people are attempting to call anyone who opposes not just the lifestyle but redefining marriage as a bigot or "homophobe." 

Straw Man

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2009, 11:33:24 AM »
True.  I find it troubling that people are attempting to call anyone who opposes not just the lifestyle but redefining marriage as a bigot or "homophobe." 

yeah the truth hurts

shootfighter1

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2009, 11:36:18 AM »
I love how the far lefties twist his words to fit their criticizms.

Warren clearly said he loves and respects all people.  The Christian faith does not condone homosexuality...blame the faith, not Warren.  Warren accepts and loves gays, which is farther along than many Christian leaders, he just re-states the opinion of the Christian faith.

Seems that the far lefties are the least tolerant people in this day and age.

Straw Man

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2009, 11:51:37 AM »
I love how the far lefties twist his words to fit their criticizms.

Warren clearly said he loves and respects all people.  The Christian faith does not condone homosexuality...blame the faith, not Warren.  Warren accepts and loves gays, which is farther along than many Christian leaders, he just re-states the opinion of the Christian faith.

Seems that the far lefties are the least tolerant people in this day and age.

No need to twist his words.




Dos Equis

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2009, 12:02:36 PM »
I love how the far lefties twist his words to fit their criticizms.

Warren clearly said he loves and respects all people.  The Christian faith does not condone homosexuality...blame the faith, not Warren.  Warren accepts and loves gays, which is farther along than many Christian leaders, he just re-states the opinion of the Christian faith.

Seems that the far lefties are the least tolerant people in this day and age.

Warren is a good man.  Very consistent. 

Absolutely true that many of the people preaching tolerance on homosexuality, bisexuality, etc. are absolute hypocrites. 

tonymctones

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2009, 12:08:04 PM »
I'm sure you can understand that it might be hard for some people to be tolerant of this guy after he basically said they were the equivalent of child molesters.


Now Now Now straw, im not sure if you posted those videos to prove your point to shootfighter but no where in either of those videos is he saying that gays are the equivilant of child molestors...He said he is not in favor of changing the definition of marriage whether that be to include brother or sister, older guy and child and asked if that is equivilant to gays marrying. His intention was that it was equivilant b/c its a redefinition of marriage not to say gays are as bad as child molestors. 

Straw Man

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2009, 12:25:47 PM »
Now Now Now straw, im not sure if you posted those videos to prove your point to shootfighter but no where in either of those videos is he saying that gays are the equivilant of child molestors...He said he is not in favor of changing the definition of marriage whether that be to include brother or sister, older guy and child and asked if that is equivilant to gays marrying. His intention was that it was equivilant b/c its a redefinition of marriage not to say gays are as bad as child molestors. 

I haven't actually watched them both fully but check out ~ 2 minutes in on the first video for the gay marriage is equivalent to incest comments

I'm breaking my own rules by posting during the work day.

He's conflating two issues - gay marriage (or whatever you want to call it) and siblings getting married.

If his only issue is "marriage" and he really has no problem with homosexuality then he must be in favor of incest provided they two siblings don't want to get married.....and we all know that aint' the case.

The second clip he again conflate homosexuality (which is what the host asked him about) with having multiple partners (again slightly changign the subject - then arguing against his own changed subject). 


MCWAY

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2009, 12:53:41 PM »
I haven't actually watched them both fully but check out ~ 2 minutes in on the first video for the gay marriage is equivalent to incest comments

I'm breaking my own rules by posting during the work day.

He's conflating two issues - gay marriage (or whatever you want to call it) and siblings getting married.

Not necessarily. One of the big arguments used by those supporting gay "marriage" is that the institution of marriage isn't really about having children.


If his only issue is "marriage" and he really has no problem with homosexuality then he must be in favor of incest provided they two siblings don't want to get married.....and we all know that aint' the case.

The same could be say for gay people and heteros who support gay "marriage". They'd have to be in favor of incest, too, especially if having children isn't really all that important in marriage. But, we all know that many gay "marriage" supporters think incest is wrong and would definitely be against two siblings trying to get married (even if it were two brothers or two sisters).


The second clip he again conflate homosexuality (which is what the host asked him about) with having multiple partners (again slightly changign the subject - then arguing against his own changed subject). 




Saying that one group (gays) can re-define marriage to fit their “preference” but saying that other groups (pedophiles, polygamists, incestuous folks) can’t change marriage to fit their ‘preference’ is quite inconsistent on their part, as again there are many gay “marriage” advocates who deem pedophilia, polygamy, and incest as being morally wrong.

What would be the difference between two gay men (non-brothers) wanting to get "married" to each other and two gay brothers wanting to get "married" to each other?

tonymctones

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2009, 01:00:27 PM »
I haven't actually watched them both fully but check out ~ 2 minutes in on the first video for the gay marriage is equivalent to incest comments

I'm breaking my own rules by posting during the work day.

He's conflating two issues - gay marriage (or whatever you want to call it) and siblings getting married.

If his only issue is "marriage" and he really has no problem with homosexuality then he must be in favor of incest provided they two siblings don't want to get married.....and we all know that aint' the case.

The second clip he again conflate homosexuality (which is what the host asked him about) with having multiple partners (again slightly changign the subject - then arguing against his own changed subject). 


Now again your sniping at little bits and pieces and not taking in his entire point...He is not drawing a similarity between gays and child molestors in any other way then in saying that both would be the redefinition of marriage which he is against...HE IS NOT SAYING GAYS ARE AS BAD AS CHILD MOLESTORS.

In the second one he includes himself in that analogy as well so is he saying that he is as bad a gays? No he is making a point that actions that are genetic predispositions that are not beneficial to oneself or to society may need to be delt with by the individual and that it would not be a reason in his mind to be in favor of gay marriage.

You arent looking at his entire point your picking and choosing and this is why you are misunderstanding him.

tonymctones

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2009, 01:02:15 PM »
Not necessarily. One of the big arguments used by those supporting gay "marriage" is that the institution of marriage isn't really about having children.

The same could be say for gay people and heteros who support gay "marriage". They'd have to be in favor of incest, too, especially if having children isn't really all that important in marriage. But, we all know that many gay "marriage" supporters think incest is wrong and would definitely be against two siblings trying to get married (even if it were two brothers or two sisters).



Saying that one group (gays) can re-define marriage to fit their “preference” but saying that other groups (pedophiles, polygamists, incestuous folks) can’t change marriage to fit their ‘preference’ is quite inconsistent on their part, as again there are many gay “marriage” advocates who deem pedophilia, polygamy, and incest as being morally wrong.

What would be the difference between two gay men (non-brothers) wanting to get "married" to each other and two gay brothers wanting to get "married" to each other?
exactly thats the point he is making not saying that gays are child molestors or as bad as child molestors only that he is not in favor of redefining marriage for anything other than one man and one woman of age.

Straw Man

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2009, 01:04:53 PM »
Now again your sniping at little bits and pieces and not taking in his entire point...He is not drawing a similarity between gays and child molestors in any other way then in saying that both would be the redefinition of marriage which he is against...HE IS NOT SAYING GAYS ARE AS BAD AS CHILD MOLESTORS.

In the second one he includes himself in that analogy as well so is he saying that he is as bad a gays? No he is making a point that actions that are genetic predispositions that are not beneficial to oneself or to society may need to be delt with by the individual and that it would not be a reason in his mind to be in favor of gay marriage.

You arent looking at his entire point your picking and choosing and this is why you are misunderstanding him.

And gays are not saying that Adults should marry children or siblings should marry each other.

This is a classic diversion tactic.  He redefines the argument and then pretends that they are somehow equivalent.

MCWAY

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2009, 01:19:43 PM »
And gays are not saying that Adults should marry children or siblings should marry each other.

This is a classic diversion tactic.  He redefines the argument and then pretends that they are somehow equivalent.


There’s no diversion, here. If two gay guys, who happened to be brothers, wanted to get married, most gay “marriage” advocates would say that was WRONG!!!

But, why would it be wrong? They can't have kids (regular or deformed) together, and as many gay "marriage" advocates argue, procreation isn't a big issue in marriage.

So why would they deny two "adults in a loving committed relationship" the "right to marry", simply because they happen to share at least one parent?

The point is, once again, that gays want the proverbial cake and wish to eat it, too. If they can re-define marriage to suit their desire, then so can incestous people, pedophiles, and polygamists. And, if gays think otherwise, that makes them the very bigots that they claim people, who believe marriage is a one-man-one-woman union, are.

Straw Man

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2009, 01:24:30 PM »
again - classic conflation

2 brothers getting married has nothing to do with two adult people of the same sex who want to get married.

No comparison (although I know Warren and other try to make one).

Personally, I don't care who wants to get married (provided they are adults of course).

Make no difference to me at all

MCWAY

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2009, 01:47:25 PM »
again - classic conflation

2 brothers getting married has nothing to do with two adult people of the same sex who want to get married.

No comparison (although I know Warren and other try to make one).

The brothers, in the example I used, are TWO ADULT PEOPLE of the same sex who want to get married.

Once again, why is that wrong to gay "marriage" advocates, if procreation isn't an issue?


Personally, I don't care who wants to get married (provided they are adults of course).

Make no difference to me at all

Again, why do they have to be adults?

Straw Man

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2009, 01:59:35 PM »
The brothers, in the example I used, are TWO ADULT PEOPLE of the same sex who want to get married.

Once again, why is that wrong to gay "marriage" advocates, if procreation isn't an issue?

Again, why do they have to be adults?

yeah - I understand that brothers are two adults

like I said, personally it makes no difference to me.

You don't really need me to explain why they have to be adults and not children do you??

shootfighter1

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2009, 02:06:01 PM »
Straw He is not comparing the behavior of gays to child molesters, you are missing his point.

Straw Man

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2009, 02:09:55 PM »
Straw He is not comparing the behavior of gays to child molesters, you are missing his point.

I pretty sure I get his point (but I'm open to more discussion - just busy at work).

I just don't buy the comparison and I don't think it's valid.


loco

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2009, 02:14:56 PM »
I'm sure you can understand that it might be hard for some people to be tolerant of this guy after he basically said they were the equivalent of child molesters.

He did not say that.  You are twisting his words.

a_joker10

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2009, 02:15:51 PM »
yeah - I understand that brothers are two adults

like I said, personally it makes no difference to me.

You don't really need me to explain why they have to be adults and not children do you??

The point is that you are arguing to definitions that aren't equal.

Many people think that state marriage is the same as religious marriage.
They are not.

If his church views gay marriage as wrong then so be it. He is right to do what he thinks since his church answers to God not to the state.
There are plenty of churches that allow gay marriage.

The state can institute gay marriage, since the definition a state uses is a legal and not a religious definition of marriage.
A state marriage has no religious implication and a church passing  judgment on what the state does should have no bearing on the law.
Z

Straw Man

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2009, 02:28:46 PM »
The point is that you are arguing to definitions that aren't equal.

Many people think that state marriage is the same as religious marriage.
They are not.

If his church views gay marriage as wrong then so be it. He is right to do what he thinks since his church answers to God not to the state.
There are plenty of churches that allow gay marriage.

The state can institute gay marriage, since the definition a state uses is a legal and not a religious definition of marriage.
A state marriage has no religious implication and a church passing  judgment on what the state does should have no bearing on the law.


good points but it's even simplier.

In the second clip the interviewer asks him about homosexuality and whether he would change his posistion (what is it exactly) if it was proven to be biological.  He takes that and goes on to conflate sexuality with someone who "struggles" with anger or shyness or alcohol (as if those are proven to be biological).   He simply changes the context and makes an absurd comparison and then pretends that he has addressed the original question

toward the end of that clip he conflates homosexuality with promiscuity (again implying they are one and the same) and then saying that people should be mature and "reign in" those urges.   

It's the same tactic over and over again.

tonymctones

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2009, 03:21:51 PM »
And gays are not saying that Adults should marry children or siblings should marry each other.

This is a classic diversion tactic.  He redefines the argument and then pretends that they are somehow equivalent.

His point is that he doesnt want to redifine marriage, not for gays, not for brothers or sisters, not for older and younger couples either. NOT THAT GAYS ARE CHILD MOLESTORS.

again - classic conflation

2 brothers getting married has nothing to do with two adult people of the same sex who want to get married.

No comparison (although I know Warren and other try to make one).

Personally, I don't care who wants to get married (provided they are adults of course).

Make no difference to me at all
would letting 2 brothers get married redefine marriage?

would letting gays marry redefine marriage?

wouldd letting an older person and a younger person marry redefine marriage?

Then yes they are equivilant in that sense, how do you not understand that? He is not saying that being gay is as bad as incest or child molestation.


tonymctones

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Re: Commentary: Rick Warren foes aren't practicing tolerance
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2009, 03:29:36 PM »
good points but it's even simplier.

In the second clip the interviewer asks him about homosexuality and whether he would change his posistion (what is it exactly) if it was proven to be biological.  He takes that and goes on to conflate sexuality with someone who "struggles" with anger or shyness or alcohol (as if those are proven to be biological).   He simply changes the context and makes an absurd comparison and then pretends that he has addressed the original question

toward the end of that clip he conflates homosexuality with promiscuity (again implying they are one and the same) and then saying that people should be mature and "reign in" those urges.   

It's the same tactic over and over again.
LOL oh my fuking goodness your doing this to piss ppl off arent you? you are seriously not this retarded bro i know this to be a fact.

The reason she asks the question is b/c she wants to know that if its not the persons "choice" to be gay would it change his mind on gay marriage. In other words if they are predispositioned to it genitically then you really cant hold it agaisnt them right?

He points out that certain ppl are genitically predipositioned to being easier to anger or being shy or introverted which is certainly true. Although these actions maybe genetic doesnt mean that they are the right thing to do and that if the actions arent beneficial to oneself or society then the actions should be delt with. DO YOU SERIOUSLY NOT UNDERSTAND THIS STRAW?

In the response to the second question he is referring to certain gay ppl NOT THE GAY COMMUNITY. He also says that HE HAS THE URGE TO HAVE MULTIPLE PARTNERS again to illustrate the point that behaviors that arent beneficial should be reigned in.

you are twisting words bro either you have not listened to either clip or you have something personal against this man or his views on gay marriage, this is a bad spin job bro.