The homemade Milos workout drink

[MuscleMcMannus]

Van Bilderass.......Don't listen to Tbombz he's a moron who talks out of his ass.  Look at his reply to your post.  Supposedly there are tons of studies proven his argument yet he doesn't take the time to post ONE.  LMAO!  He owns himself everytime he opens his mouth regarding anabolics or nutrition.  He'd still be a pimply face teenager with a 150lb body if it wasn't for roids.  He has a lot to learn about nutrition. 

[Van_Bilderass]

butit has bee proven. theres plenty of studies on these things.

Acute effects have been "proven", yes. It's a huge stretch to claim it's been proven that amino supplements make you gain more at the end of the day, especially if you're bodybuilder who's eating well in excess of maintenance with tons of protein (slightly more than what you'd probably need to max the effect, like many do).

Not even the researchers who do these studies would say it has been proven that amino (EAA for example) will make you grow more than if you had a complete protein supplement instead (supplying the same amount of EAAs). Read the discussion part here for example:
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/283/4/E648

What you see is a ton of questions by the researchers that need answers. I can pretty much guarantee that no top protein researcher will claim that amino acid supplements absolutely, positively make you grow more than getting the same aminos from regular food. If you've read Layne Norton's stuff even he is pretty cautious in making claims like that. He does say he uses aminos etc but he can only theorize on certain things, such as meal frequency where he thinks it might be better to eat fewer but bigger meals.

Interestingly, if I'm reading it right, this study says it doesn't matter if you have the supp immediately, 1h after or 3h after the workout. You get the same effect on PS

[Fatpanda]

There's no proof that fast digesting proteins cause more muscle growth than slow digesting proteins. Or lets say you take fast digesting proteins around the workout and the rest of the day slow - will it cause more growth than only eating so-called slow proteins? There's no proof of that. I admit that there's some pretty good sounding theories on why fast digesting proteins might be advantageous at certain times (such as if you're training in the morning and have obviously fasted for many hours) - but it's far from proven. Would Levrone have been bigger if he had eaten aminos and powders in place of some of that fish and meat? My guess is no.

Also you can't look at these amino studies in isolation - only looking at acute effects. Sure aminos will boost protein synthesis nicely if taken before a workout but does that mean you'll end up with more net protein synthesis at the end of the day? The body is good at balancing things out... I could compare this to the debate on HIIT cardio vs. steady state cardio. Which is more beneficial for fat loss? It seems that at the end of the day the amount of fat lost is the probably pretty similar. Looking at acute effects on substrate use doesn't tell the whole story since the body balances things out. I'm thinking you can't "force" more muscle growth by spiking with Leucine or what have you. The HMB was a bust and that compound is a leucine metabolite that also stimulates mTor that's so in the rage nowadays.

you are 100% correct van.

here are 3 studies that show slow proteins > fast proteins for protein synthesis and reduced muscle breakdown:



Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion.

Boirie Y, Dangin M, Gachon P, Vasson MP, Maubois JL, Beaufrère B.
Laboratoire de Nutrition Humaine, Université Clermont Auvergne, Centre de Recherche en Nutrition Humaine, BP 321, 63009 Clermont-Ferrand Cedex 1, France.

The speed of absorption of dietary amino acids by the gut varies according to the type of ingested dietary protein. This could affect postprandial protein synthesis, breakdown, and deposition. To test this hypothesis, two intrinsically 13C-leucine-labeled milk proteins, casein (CAS) and whey protein (WP), of different physicochemical properties were ingested as one single meal by healthy adults. Postprandial whole body leucine kinetics were assessed by using a dual tracer methodology. WP induced a dramatic but short increase of plasma amino acids. CAS induced a prolonged plateau of moderate hyperaminoacidemia, probably because of a slow gastric emptying. Whole body protein breakdown was inhibited by 34% after CAS ingestion but not after WP ingestion. Postprandial protein synthesis was stimulated by 68% with the WP meal and to a lesser extent (+31%) with the CAS meal. Postprandial whole body leucine oxidation over 7 h was lower with CAS (272 +/- 91 micromol.kg-1) than with WP (373 +/- 56 micromol.kg-1). Leucine intake was identical in both meals (380 micromol.kg-1). Therefore, net leucine balance over the 7 h after the meal was more positive with CAS than with WP (P < 0.05, WP vs. CAS). In conclusion, the speed of protein digestion and amino acid absorption from the gut has a major effect on whole body protein anabolism after one single meal. By analogy with carbohydrate metabolism, slow and fast proteins modulate the postprandial metabolic response, a concept to be applied to wasting situations.



and this one compares fast and slow with identical AA profiles:


The digestion rate of protein is an independent regulating factor of postprandial protein retention.

Dangin M, Boirie Y, Garcia-Rodenas C, Gachon P, Fauquant J, Callier P, Ballèvre O, Beaufrère B.
Laboratoire de Nutrition Humaine, Centre de Recherche en Nutrition Humaine, Université Clermont Auvergne, 63009 Clermont-Ferrand, France.

To evaluate the importance of protein digestion rate on protein deposition, we characterized leucine kinetics after ingestion of "protein" meals of identical amino acid composition and nitrogen contents but of different digestion rates. Four groups of five or six young men received an L-[1-13C]leucine infusion and one of the following 30-g protein meals: a single meal of slowly digested casein (CAS), a single meal of free amino acid mimicking casein composition (AA), a single meal of rapidly digested whey proteins (WP), or repeated meals of whey proteins (RPT-WP) mimicking slow digestion rate. Comparisons were made between "fast" (AA, WP) and "slow" (CAS, RPT-WP) meals of identical amino acid composition (AA vs. CAS, and WP vs. RPT-WP). The fast meals induced a strong, rapid, and transient increase of aminoacidemia, leucine flux, and oxidation. After slow meals, these parameters increased moderately but durably. Postprandial leucine balance over 7 h was higher after the slow than after the fast meals (CAS: 38 +/- 13 vs. AA: -12 +/- 11, P < 0.01; RPT-WP: 87 +/- 25 vs. WP: 6 +/- 19 micromol/kg, P < 0.05). Protein digestion rate is an independent factor modulating postprandial protein deposition.


and another than highlights that fast AA uptake is detremental, and that milk is good  :

Compared with casein or total milk protein, digestion of milk soluble proteins is too rapid to sustain the anabolic postprandial amino acid requirement.Lacroix M, Bos C, Léonil J, Airinei G, Luengo C, Daré S, Benamouzig R, Fouillet H, Fauquant J, Tomé D, Gaudichon C.
UMR INRA 914, Physiology of Nutrition and Feeding Control Unit, Institut National Agronomique Paris-Grignon, Paris, France.

BACKGROUND: The in vivo quality of milk protein fractions has seldom been studied in humans. OBJECTIVE: Our objective was to compare the postprandial utilization of dietary nitrogen from 3 [(15)N]-labeled milk products: micellar caseins (MC), milk soluble protein isolate (MSPI), and total milk protein (TMP). DESIGN: The macronutrient intakes of 23 healthy volunteers were standardized for 1 wk, after which time the subjects ingested a meal containing MC (n = , MSPI (n = 7), or TMP (n = . [(15)N] was measured for an 8-h period in plasma amino acids, proteins, and urea and in urinary urea. RESULTS: The transfer of dietary nitrogen to urea occurred earlier after MSPI ingestion than after MC and TMP ingestion, and concentrations remained high for 8 h, concomitantly with higher but transient hyperaminoacidemia and a higher incorporation of dietary nitrogen into plasma amino acids. In contrast, deamination, postprandial hyperaminoacidemia, and the incorporation of dietary nitrogen into plasma amino acids were lower in the MC and TMP groups. Finally, total postprandial deamination values were 18.5 +/- 2.9%, 21.1 +/- 2.8%, and 28.2 +/- 2.9% of ingested nitrogen in the TMP, MC, and MSPI groups, respectively. CONCLUSIONS: Our results confirm the major role of kinetics in dietary nitrogen postprandial utilization and highlight the paradox of MSPI, which, despite its high Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score, ensures a rate of amino acid delivery that is too rapid to sustain the anabolic requirement during the postprandial period. Milk proteins had the best nutritional quality, which suggested a synergistic effect between soluble proteins and caseins.



So basically slow beats fast

[Necrosis]

you are 100% correct van.

here are 3 studies that show slow proteins > fast proteins for protein synthesis and reduced muscle breakdown:



Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion.

Boirie Y, Dangin M, Gachon P, Vasson MP, Maubois JL, Beaufrère B.
Laboratoire de Nutrition Humaine, Université Clermont Auvergne, Centre de Recherche en Nutrition Humaine, BP 321, 63009 Clermont-Ferrand Cedex 1, France.

The speed of absorption of dietary amino acids by the gut varies according to the type of ingested dietary protein. This could affect postprandial protein synthesis, breakdown, and deposition. To test this hypothesis, two intrinsically 13C-leucine-labeled milk proteins, casein (CAS) and whey protein (WP), of different physicochemical properties were ingested as one single meal by healthy adults. Postprandial whole body leucine kinetics were assessed by using a dual tracer methodology. WP induced a dramatic but short increase of plasma amino acids. CAS induced a prolonged plateau of moderate hyperaminoacidemia, probably because of a slow gastric emptying. Whole body protein breakdown was inhibited by 34% after CAS ingestion but not after WP ingestion. Postprandial protein synthesis was stimulated by 68% with the WP meal and to a lesser extent (+31%) with the CAS meal. Postprandial whole body leucine oxidation over 7 h was lower with CAS (272 +/- 91 micromol.kg-1) than with WP (373 +/- 56 micromol.kg-1). Leucine intake was identical in both meals (380 micromol.kg-1). Therefore, net leucine balance over the 7 h after the meal was more positive with CAS than with WP (P < 0.05, WP vs. CAS). In conclusion, the speed of protein digestion and amino acid absorption from the gut has a major effect on whole body protein anabolism after one single meal. By analogy with carbohydrate metabolism, slow and fast proteins modulate the postprandial metabolic response, a concept to be applied to wasting situations.



and this one compares fast and slow with identical AA profiles:


The digestion rate of protein is an independent regulating factor of postprandial protein retention.

Dangin M, Boirie Y, Garcia-Rodenas C, Gachon P, Fauquant J, Callier P, Ballèvre O, Beaufrère B.
Laboratoire de Nutrition Humaine, Centre de Recherche en Nutrition Humaine, Université Clermont Auvergne, 63009 Clermont-Ferrand, France.

To evaluate the importance of protein digestion rate on protein deposition, we characterized leucine kinetics after ingestion of "protein" meals of identical amino acid composition and nitrogen contents but of different digestion rates. Four groups of five or six young men received an L-[1-13C]leucine infusion and one of the following 30-g protein meals: a single meal of slowly digested casein (CAS), a single meal of free amino acid mimicking casein composition (AA), a single meal of rapidly digested whey proteins (WP), or repeated meals of whey proteins (RPT-WP) mimicking slow digestion rate. Comparisons were made between "fast" (AA, WP) and "slow" (CAS, RPT-WP) meals of identical amino acid composition (AA vs. CAS, and WP vs. RPT-WP). The fast meals induced a strong, rapid, and transient increase of aminoacidemia, leucine flux, and oxidation. After slow meals, these parameters increased moderately but durably. Postprandial leucine balance over 7 h was higher after the slow than after the fast meals (CAS: 38 +/- 13 vs. AA: -12 +/- 11, P < 0.01; RPT-WP: 87 +/- 25 vs. WP: 6 +/- 19 micromol/kg, P < 0.05). Protein digestion rate is an independent factor modulating postprandial protein deposition.


and another than highlights that fast AA uptake is detremental, and that milk is good  :

Compared with casein or total milk protein, digestion of milk soluble proteins is too rapid to sustain the anabolic postprandial amino acid requirement.Lacroix M, Bos C, Léonil J, Airinei G, Luengo C, Daré S, Benamouzig R, Fouillet H, Fauquant J, Tomé D, Gaudichon C.
UMR INRA 914, Physiology of Nutrition and Feeding Control Unit, Institut National Agronomique Paris-Grignon, Paris, France.

BACKGROUND: The in vivo quality of milk protein fractions has seldom been studied in humans. OBJECTIVE: Our objective was to compare the postprandial utilization of dietary nitrogen from 3 [(15)N]-labeled milk products: micellar caseins (MC), milk soluble protein isolate (MSPI), and total milk protein (TMP). DESIGN: The macronutrient intakes of 23 healthy volunteers were standardized for 1 wk, after which time the subjects ingested a meal containing MC (n = , MSPI (n = 7), or TMP (n = . [(15)N] was measured for an 8-h period in plasma amino acids, proteins, and urea and in urinary urea. RESULTS: The transfer of dietary nitrogen to urea occurred earlier after MSPI ingestion than after MC and TMP ingestion, and concentrations remained high for 8 h, concomitantly with higher but transient hyperaminoacidemia and a higher incorporation of dietary nitrogen into plasma amino acids. In contrast, deamination, postprandial hyperaminoacidemia, and the incorporation of dietary nitrogen into plasma amino acids were lower in the MC and TMP groups. Finally, total postprandial deamination values were 18.5 +/- 2.9%, 21.1 +/- 2.8%, and 28.2 +/- 2.9% of ingested nitrogen in the TMP, MC, and MSPI groups, respectively. CONCLUSIONS: Our results confirm the major role of kinetics in dietary nitrogen postprandial utilization and highlight the paradox of MSPI, which, despite its high Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score, ensures a rate of amino acid delivery that is too rapid to sustain the anabolic requirement during the postprandial period. Milk proteins had the best nutritional quality, which suggested a synergistic effect between soluble proteins and caseins.



So basically slow beats fast

how did you come to that conclusion from those studies? whey induced higher rates of protein synthesis after meals and casein due to its slow release was more anti catabolic, which is common knowledge. No where does it suggest that casein is better then whey, PWO whey would seem ideal and all other times casein with whey.

[tbombz]

how did you come to that conclusion from those studies? whey induced higher rates of protein synthesis after meals and casein due to its slow release was more anti catabolic, which is common knowledge. No where does it suggest that casein is better then whey, PWO whey would seem ideal and all other times casein with whey.

some people are just anti-supplement and see what they want to see when it comes to research an fact

[tbombz]

Acute effects have been "proven", yes. It's a huge stretch to claim it's been proven that amino supplements make you gain more at the end of the day, especially if you're bodybuilder who's eating well in excess of maintenance with tons of protein (slightly more than what you'd probably need to max the effect, like many do).

Not even the researchers who do these studies would say it has been proven that amino (EAA for example) will make you grow more than if you had a complete protein supplement instead (supplying the same amount of EAAs). Read the discussion part here for example:
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/283/4/E648

What you see is a ton of questions by the researchers that need answers. I can pretty much guarantee that no top protein researcher will claim that amino acid supplements absolutely, positively make you grow more than getting the same aminos from regular food. If you've read Layne Norton's stuff even he is pretty cautious in making claims like that. He does say he uses aminos etc but he can only theorize on certain things, such as meal frequency where he thinks it might be better to eat fewer but bigger meals.

Interestingly, if I'm reading it right, this study says it doesn't matter if you have the supp immediately, 1h after or 3h after the workout. You get the same effect on PS

  i dont think its debateable at all... that if one takes two people.... both have the same number of meals per day , same amount and type of protein per meal, same amount of fats and carbs, equal genetics, equal trianing stimulus, equal homrones.... and one guy drinks 30 grams whey post workout and the other guy does not...... the guy who has the addition of the whey post workout will definitely progress faster than the guy who does not

[Fatpanda]

how did you come to that conclusion from those studies? whey induced higher rates of protein synthesis after meals and casein due to its slow release was more anti catabolic, which is common knowledge. No where does it suggest that casein is better then whey, PWO whey would seem ideal and all other times casein with whey.

  i knew you couldn't resist.

anti catabolic is better for muscle building than synthesis 

therefore casein is better than whey for bodybuilders.

also

Effect of a Hypocaloric Diet, Increased Protein Intake and Resistance Training on Lean Mass Gains and Fat Mass Loss in Overweight Police Officers

Abstract

We compare the effects of a moderate hypocaloric, high-protein diet and resistance training, using two different protein supplements, versus hypocaloric diet alone on body compositional changes in overweight police officers. A randomized, prospective 12-week study was performed comparing the changes in body composition produced by three different treatment modalities in three study groups. One group (n = 10) was placed on a nonlipogenic, hypocaloric diet alone (80% of predicted needs). A second group (n = 14) was placed on the hypocaloric diet plus resistance exercise plus a high-protein intake (1.5 g/kg/day) using a casein protein hydrolysate. In the third group (n = 14) treatment was identical to the second, except for the use of a whey protein hydrolysate. We found that weight loss was approximately 2.5 kg in all three groups. Mean percent body fat with diet alone decreased from a baseline of 27 ± 1.8 to 25 ± 1.3% at 12 weeks. With diet, exercise and casein the decrease was from 26 ± 1.7 to 18 ± 1.1% and with diet, exercise and whey protein the decrease was from 27 ± 1.6 to 23 ± 1.3%. The mean fat loss was 2.5 ± 0.6, 7.0 ± 2.1 and 4.2 ± 0.9 kg in the three groups, respectively. Lean mass gains in the three groups did not change for diet alone, versus gains of 4 ± 1.4 and 2 ± 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 ± 9% for casein and 29 ± 9% for whey, a significant group difference.   This significant difference in body composition and strength is likely due to improved nitrogen retention and overall anticatabolic effects caused by the peptide components of the casein hydrolysate.


and the final nail in the coffin, the full study ( which you can get here: http://www.betterwheyoflife.com/phys-dangin-01.pdf )shows whey has zero effect on stopping protein breakdown, while casein not only stops it, but also increases synthesis:

Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion.Boirie Y, Dangin M, Gachon P, Vasson MP, Maubois JL, Beaufrère B.
Laboratoire de Nutrition Humaine, Université Clermont Auvergne, Centre de Recherche en Nutrition Humaine, BP 321, 63009 Clermont-Ferrand Cedex 1, France.

The speed of absorption of dietary amino acids by the gut varies according to the type of ingested dietary protein. This could affect postprandial protein synthesis, breakdown, and deposition. To test this hypothesis, two intrinsically 13C-leucine-labeled milk proteins, casein (CAS) and whey protein (WP), of different physicochemical properties were ingested as one single meal by healthy adults. Postprandial whole body leucine kinetics were assessed by using a dual tracer methodology. WP induced a dramatic but short increase of plasma amino acids. CAS induced a prolonged plateau of moderate hyperaminoacidemia, probably because of a slow gastric emptying. Whole body protein breakdown was inhibited by 34% after CAS ingestion but not after WP ingestion. Postprandial protein synthesis was stimulated by 68% with the WP meal and to a lesser extent (+31%) with the CAS meal. Postprandial whole body leucine oxidation over 7 h was lower with CAS (272 +/- 91 micromol.kg-1) than with WP (373 +/- 56 micromol.kg-1). Leucine intake was identical in both meals (380 micromol.kg-1). Therefore, net leucine balance over the 7 h after the meal was more positive with CAS than with WP (P < 0.05, WP vs. CAS). In conclusion, the speed of protein digestion and amino acid absorption from the gut has a major effect on whole body protein anabolism after one single meal. By analogy with carbohydrate metabolism, slow and fast proteins modulate the postprandial metabolic response, a concept to be applied to wasting situations.


So once again slow>fast

casein > whey

some people are just anti-supplement and see what they want to see when it comes to research an fact

you were saying 

[Necrosis]

i knew you couldn't resist.

anti catabolic is better for muscle building than synthesis 

therefore casein is better than whey for bodybuilders.

also

Effect of a Hypocaloric Diet, Increased Protein Intake and Resistance Training on Lean Mass Gains and Fat Mass Loss in Overweight Police Officers

Abstract

We compare the effects of a moderate hypocaloric, high-protein diet and resistance training, using two different protein supplements, versus hypocaloric diet alone on body compositional changes in overweight police officers. A randomized, prospective 12-week study was performed comparing the changes in body composition produced by three different treatment modalities in three study groups. One group (n = 10) was placed on a nonlipogenic, hypocaloric diet alone (80% of predicted needs). A second group (n = 14) was placed on the hypocaloric diet plus resistance exercise plus a high-protein intake (1.5 g/kg/day) using a casein protein hydrolysate. In the third group (n = 14) treatment was identical to the second, except for the use of a whey protein hydrolysate. We found that weight loss was approximately 2.5 kg in all three groups. Mean percent body fat with diet alone decreased from a baseline of 27 ± 1.8 to 25 ± 1.3% at 12 weeks. With diet, exercise and casein the decrease was from 26 ± 1.7 to 18 ± 1.1% and with diet, exercise and whey protein the decrease was from 27 ± 1.6 to 23 ± 1.3%. The mean fat loss was 2.5 ± 0.6, 7.0 ± 2.1 and 4.2 ± 0.9 kg in the three groups, respectively. Lean mass gains in the three groups did not change for diet alone, versus gains of 4 ± 1.4 and 2 ± 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 ± 9% for casein and 29 ± 9% for whey, a significant group difference.   This significant difference in body composition and strength is likely due to improved nitrogen retention and overall anticatabolic effects caused by the peptide components of the casein hydrolysate.


and the final nail in the coffin, the full study ( which you can get here: http://www.betterwheyoflife.com/phys-dangin-01.pdf )shows whey has zero effect on stopping protein breakdown, while casein not only stops it, but also increases synthesis:

Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion.Boirie Y, Dangin M, Gachon P, Vasson MP, Maubois JL, Beaufrère B.
Laboratoire de Nutrition Humaine, Université Clermont Auvergne, Centre de Recherche en Nutrition Humaine, BP 321, 63009 Clermont-Ferrand Cedex 1, France.

The speed of absorption of dietary amino acids by the gut varies according to the type of ingested dietary protein. This could affect postprandial protein synthesis, breakdown, and deposition. To test this hypothesis, two intrinsically 13C-leucine-labeled milk proteins, casein (CAS) and whey protein (WP), of different physicochemical properties were ingested as one single meal by healthy adults. Postprandial whole body leucine kinetics were assessed by using a dual tracer methodology. WP induced a dramatic but short increase of plasma amino acids. CAS induced a prolonged plateau of moderate hyperaminoacidemia, probably because of a slow gastric emptying. Whole body protein breakdown was inhibited by 34% after CAS ingestion but not after WP ingestion. Postprandial protein synthesis was stimulated by 68% with the WP meal and to a lesser extent (+31%) with the CAS meal. Postprandial whole body leucine oxidation over 7 h was lower with CAS (272 +/- 91 micromol.kg-1) than with WP (373 +/- 56 micromol.kg-1). Leucine intake was identical in both meals (380 micromol.kg-1). Therefore, net leucine balance over the 7 h after the meal was more positive with CAS than with WP (P < 0.05, WP vs. CAS). In conclusion, the speed of protein digestion and amino acid absorption from the gut has a major effect on whole body protein anabolism after one single meal. By analogy with carbohydrate metabolism, slow and fast proteins modulate the postprandial metabolic response, a concept to be applied to wasting situations.


So once again slow>fast

casein > whey
 you were saying 

I'm high right now so i wont respond , but i just wanted to post so that you know i will respond in a day or so. I havent looked at the study but casein would be better overall then whey no doubt as a protein source, whey is a niche protein. Its like saying blocking cortisol is better for muscle building then taking testesoterone, not that simply.

anyway, im getting the nod, ill be back

[Van_Bilderass]

  i dont think its debateable at all... that if one takes two people.... both have the same number of meals per day , same amount and type of protein per meal, same amount of fats and carbs, equal genetics, equal trianing stimulus, equal homrones.... and one guy drinks 30 grams whey post workout and the other guy does not...... the guy who has the addition of the whey post workout will definitely progress faster than the guy who does not

I don't agree that it's a foregone conclusion. Not at all. IIRC even Tipton, a scientist who's done a lot of these studies on aminos and exercise said that any increase in muscle gains from protein timing would take several years to manifest to a degree that's measurable, if at all. See if you can find a scientist in the protein field who can state what you say without any reservations. All they can do currently is theorize.

Again, you can't just look at acute effects. This is key.