Author Topic: School can expel lesbian students, court rules  (Read 7807 times)

Benny B

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2009, 03:04:32 AM »

The school doesn't need to do anything to appease paranoid anti-religious extremists.   

;)
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Dos Equis

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2009, 02:09:41 PM »
Interaction with a school that chooses to discriminate in direct violation of a law that applies to public schools could absolutely be viewed as tacit approval and a forced assumption of approval at that.

It really shouldn't be a problem for the private school.  Their religious ideals should easily outweigh any benefit of credibility that they get from interaction with public schools.  


The school isn't "in direct violation of the law."  The law provides an exception for religious institutions and the court said the school complied with the law. 

Dos Equis

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #52 on: January 29, 2009, 02:11:52 PM »
It seems inconsistent that openly gay and lesbian people are allowed to be members of the Lutheran Church yet children who are just suspected of being gay are not allowed to attend a Lutheran School.

Maybe that school didn't get the official statement from the church from back in 1996:

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America officially and unequivocally welcomes gays and lesbians and their families. In an open letter in 1996, the Lutheran bishops reaffirmed this message and condemned homophobia and anti-gay discrimination:

“To gay and lesbian members, we write to you in hope and out of faith. We all live with the pain of a church that experiences sharp disagreements on some issues. Yet we walk beside you and we value your gifts and commitment to the Church. … We repudiate all words and acts of hatred toward gay and lesbian persons in our congregations and in our communities, and extend a caring welcome for gay and lesbian persons and their families. We call upon all our pastors, as they exercise pastoral care, to be sensitive to the gifts and needs of gay and lesbian members.”

Link?  Is this the same church that is affiliated with the school? 

Dos Equis

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2009, 02:12:16 PM »

MCWAY

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #54 on: January 30, 2009, 11:45:53 AM »
When you send your kids to a Christian school, they and you (the parents) read the school’s handbook, complete with the rules, regulations, and beliefs (along with the Scriptural references on which those beliefs are based) of that school.

The parents and the kids (depending on their age) SIGN documents, clearly stating that they understand the rules, will abide by those rules, and they know the consequences for breaking those rules, some of which include EXPULSION.

Homosexual behavior is wrong in Christian doctrine. These kids know that and so do their parents. It’s a simple breach of contract; and the school has the right to exercise its option to DISMISS these students.

If that school is a private entity, they should be able to refuse service to anyone they like.  Whites, blacks, gays, jews.

The school didn't refuse service. The faculty laid out the rules for attending school. The kids and/or their parents signed on the dotted line and agree to comply with those rules. They broke them; they're gone, pure and simple.

CQ

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #55 on: January 30, 2009, 12:06:40 PM »
Nice Christian values, I must send my kid there to learn how to treat others nicely :)

Dos Equis

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2009, 12:08:36 PM »
Hate the sin, love the sinner.   :)

Straw Man

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #57 on: January 30, 2009, 01:01:45 PM »
The school isn't "in direct violation of the law."  The law provides an exception for religious institutions and the court said the school complied with the law. 

I didn't say they were in direction violoation of the law.   I said interaction could be contrued as tacit approval by the public school of discrimination.  It should be fully within the right of the public school system to refuse any and all interaction with a school that chooses to discriminate if that is what the public school wants to do. 

Interaction with a school that chooses to discriminate in direct violation of a law that applies to public schools could absolutely be viewed as tacit approval and a forced assumption of approval at that.

It really shouldn't be a problem for the private school.  Their religious ideals should easily outweigh any benefit of credibility that they get from interaction with public schools. 


Straw Man

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #58 on: January 30, 2009, 01:02:49 PM »
Link?  Is this the same church that is affiliated with the school? 

http://www.hrc.org/issues/4993.htm

Dos Equis

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2009, 01:10:16 PM »
I didn't say they were in direction violoation of the law.   I said interaction could be contrued as tacit approval by the public school of discrimination.  It should be fully within the right of the public school system to refuse any and all interaction with a school that chooses to discriminate if that is what the public school wants to do. 


It's not unlawful discrimination, so it doesn't matter whether a school gives "tacit approval."  In any event, public schools already have the choice to interact with private religious schools or not.  Interacting with a school (whatever that means) isn't endorsement of the school's practices.  That's silly. 

Straw Man

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #60 on: January 30, 2009, 01:17:44 PM »
It's not unlawful discrimination, so it doesn't matter whether a school gives "tacit approval."  In any event, public schools already have the choice to interact with private religious schools or not.  Interacting with a school (whatever that means) isn't endorsement of the school's practices.  That's silly. 

If we were in the middle of the civil rights era and I chose to go to a restaurant that discriminated against blacks it could easily (and correctly) viewed as tacit approval of their discriminatory practices.

This is basically the same thing. 



Straw Man

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #61 on: January 30, 2009, 01:20:30 PM »
;)

the paranoid extremists in this case are in the school


Dos Equis

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #62 on: January 30, 2009, 01:27:00 PM »
http://www.hrc.org/issues/4993.htm

Apparently, the school is affiliated with a different part of the Lutheran church.  The school is affiliated with the Evangelical Lutheran Synod and the Wisconsin Evagelical Lutheran Synod.  Here is the WELS statement on homosexuality:

Statement on homosexuality


There are currently a number of hotly debated issues that may lead people to ask, “What is WELS’s stance on homosexuality? Is homosexuality an inborn disposition or a free choice? Should states outlaw or endorse same sex marriages? Should gays be ordained to the Holy Ministry? Should churches bless same sex marriages?” WELS does not have an official statement on these issues, but our public teaching and practice is based on what the Bible teaches concerning homosexuality.

The best place to begin a discussion of the issue is with 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, because this passage emphasizes both the law and the gospel elements of addressing this issue.

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders , nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

On the basis of this and other passages of Scripture we must draw the following conclusions about homosexuality.

Scripture declares that homosexuality is a sin, which is contrary to God's intention in creating man and woman. Sinful resistance to the revealed will of God is a factor in this sin. People may become slaves to this sin (Romans 1:18-31, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

Many factors contribute to individual acts of sin: the sinful nature we are born with, the weaknesses of our bodies, evil influences in our environment, temptations and encouragement from other sinners, and our own sinful choice join together to lead us into sin. All of these factors contribute to homosexual sin. The proportionate role of these various factors may vary from case to case.

We must warn the impenitent that homosexuality, like all sins, excludes people from eternal life (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). The church, therefore, must not, bless same-sex marriages or unions, since these are contrary to the will of God. The church must not place into nor retain in the public ministry of the Word people who defend, condone, or persist in words or actions that are contrary to God’s law.

We are happy to assure the repentant who are struggling against this sin that they have complete forgiveness through the blood of Christ. When Christ died for all of the sins of the whole world, he gained forgiveness for homosexual deeds, for homosexual desires, and for the inborn sinful nature that produces these sins (1 Corinthians 6:11).

We should sympathize with all who are struggling against this sin, remembering that we too have "pet sins" that may have a strong hold on us. We warn against a “selective morality” that harshly condemns homosexuality or other sins that we observe in others while regarding those sins which are present in our own lives more lightly (Matthew 7:1-5). We should be impartial and unbiased in warning against all sins.

We all look forward to the resurrection of the body. Then all the weaknesses of body and soul which now lead us into sin will disappear forever. Then all of us will be able to serve God perfectly and purely in everything we do.


Note on homosexuality as innate or chosen
Some advocates of legal and religious tolerance of homosexuality claim that homosexuality has a genetic cause. Some reports claim that some homosexual men share a particular pattern in the X sex-chromosome that they received from their mother. Other researchers have claimed the existence of other types of biological similarities between homosexual men. These researchers acknowledge that their discoveries cannot account for all homosexuality and may merely be associated with homosexuality rather than being a direct cause of it. Most researchers conclude that the origins of homosexuality are complex and varied and may never be fully understood.

How should we evaluate such claims in the light of the biblical teaching of sin? Is homosexuality a free choice or an inborn tendency?

Like many such either-or questions, this question poses a false dilemma. Every sin is both a choice of the will and the expression of an inborn tendency to sin. Our sinful will is guilty of consent whenever we sin in thought, word, or deed. As a result of our sinful nature we take pleasure in our sins and defend them. This universal tendency is apparent also in the efforts of gay rights activists to condone their homosexuality and to deny that anything is wrong with it.

Although the consent of our sinful will is present in every sin, it is also true that we are born as slaves of sin. We may also yield to a particular sin so often that we no longer control the sin, but the sin controls us. We may find ourselves yielding to sin even when we don't want to.

Sin infects both our body and our soul. The body we now have is not the perfect body that God created for Adam and Eve. It has been contaminated by the effects of sin. There is no reason to maintain that the specific effects of sin have been identical in each one of us or that we are all equally susceptible to every sin. Our individual degree of susceptibility to some specific sins may be due in part to differences in our bodies. Abuse of alcohol and a hot temper are just two examples of sins that may be affected by the chemistry of our bodies. Few would deny that the pressure to sexual sin is greater at 18 than it is at 8 or at 88 and that a primary reason for this is the changing chemistry of our bodies. It may well be that a person's susceptibility to homosexuality or to certain other sins depends in part on bodily differences.

Even though the weakness of our own body may be one factor that leads us to sin, God holds us responsible for all of our sins, even those sins that enslave us and those sins that we are not aware of. We need God's forgiveness even for those sinful desires that we resist and do not act upon. These desires too are sin. (Read Romans 7 for a treatment of slavery to sin.) Christ’s forgiveness covers every form of every sin for the repentant.

Note on Christians and civil laws pertaining to homosexuality
How should Christians respond to campaigns to pass laws either protecting homosexuality as a civil right or laws restricting it? Are opposing laws that grant status of homosexuality as a civil right or supporting laws that restrict homosexual practice an attempt to force our religion on others by means of the law?

We must distinguish between our duties as members of the church and our duties as citizens, though the first may have an effect on how we carry out the second.

Our Christian duty toward homosexuals (and toward the sexually immoral, thieves, swindlers, murderers, slanderers, and drunkards, and any violators of God's will) is clear—to confront the impenitent with God's law, which condemns their sin, and to comfort the penitent with the gospel, which offers forgiveness.

As good neighbors and citizens, our duty is not to pressure people to accept and practice our religious beliefs, but to promote laws that protect individuals and society from harm. If reason, evidence, and the natural knowledge of God's law, which remains in people even after the Fall, all testify that stealing, murder, drug abuse, sexual immorality, abortion, and homosexuality or condoning of same sex marriage are harmful to individuals or to society, we as citizens should work for laws that oppose those evils. We do this not to force our religious beliefs on others, but rather to work together with other people who share a natural knowledge of God's law in order to protect society from actions that are harmful to society. The fact that stealing is forbidden by the Seventh Commandment and murder by the Fifth Commandment does not mean that we as Christians cannot support laws against stealing or murder. The recognition that these acts are wrong and harmful is not peculiar to Lutheranism nor to Christianity. It is based on a natural knowledge of God's law and on experience. This knowledge, therefore, is common to all people, except where sinners have suppressed this knowledge. (Read Romans 1:18-32.)

As Christian citizens we should work for laws that will protect society from the harmful consequences of sin. As citizens we promote such laws on the basis of reason and natural knowledge of the law. If the state tolerates moral evils, which violate God's law, we will continue to oppose them on the basis of God's Word.

As a member of the church my goal is to win people's hearts and guide their lives by God's Word. As a citizen my goal is to regulate people's conduct so they do not harm themselves or others. Many of the moral principles of God's law are relevant to both goals and may be used in both spheres, but for different purposes. As a member of the church I use all of God's law as a mirror, a curb, and a rule. As a citizen I use parts of God's law as a curb against conduct that reason and natural knowledge of the law recognize as harmful to society.

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&collectionID=778&contentID=24741&shortcutID=12791

Dos Equis

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #63 on: January 30, 2009, 01:31:45 PM »
If we were in the middle of the civil rights era and I chose to go to a restaurant that discriminated against blacks it could easily (and correctly) viewed as tacit approval of their discriminatory practices.

This is basically the same thing. 




No it isn't.  Eating at a store owned or operated by a racist could mean a number of things (you like the food, the food is cheap, convenience, necessity, etc.). 

In this instance, we're dealing with a school that complied with the law, so interacting with the school doesn't tacitly approve anything.  Part of interacting includes sporting events.  Schools don't endorse each other's practices because they compete against each other.  A Christian school doesn't endorse secularism by playing a basketball game against a public school.  This really makes no sense.

Straw Man

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #64 on: January 30, 2009, 02:04:44 PM »
No it isn't.  Eating at a store owned or operated by a racist could mean a number of things (you like the food, the food is cheap, convenience, necessity, etc.). 

In this instance, we're dealing with a school that complied with the law, so interacting with the school doesn't tacitly approve anything.  Part of interacting includes sporting events.  Schools don't endorse each other's practices because they compete against each other.  A Christian school doesn't endorse secularism by playing a basketball game against a public school.  This really makes no sense.

tacit =  implied by or inferred from actions or statements

by eating in a place that openly discrimates it could imply that you approve of their dicriminatory practices (whether you do or don't). 

The public has decided that discrimination based on sexual orientation is illegal.   The religious school has been made expempt from that law but it's still discrimination even if it's not illegal.

MCWAY

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2009, 02:10:12 PM »
Nice Christian values, I must send my kid there to learn how to treat others nicely :)

Since when does learning how to "treat others nicely" equate to condoning homosexuality, especially when the students and their parents know the school stance on the issue AND they agreed to comply by the school's rules (with expulsion being a punishment for violation of those rules)?

Straw Man

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #66 on: January 30, 2009, 02:13:36 PM »
Since when does learning how to "treat others nicely" equate to condoning homosexuality, especially when the students and their parents know the school stance on the issue AND they agreed to comply by the school's rules (with expulsion being a punishment for violation of those rules)?

we have no idea of these were written rules or if some jackass who runs the school is just making his own interpretations as he goes along. 

CQ

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #67 on: January 30, 2009, 02:42:29 PM »
Since when does learning how to "treat others nicely" equate to condoning homosexuality, especially when the students and their parents know the school stance on the issue AND they agreed to comply by the school's rules (with expulsion being a punishment for violation of those rules)?

Like I said, nice school. Great Christian values, I am not surprised.

Dos Equis

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #68 on: January 30, 2009, 02:55:40 PM »
Like I said, nice school. Great Christian values, I am not surprised.

What values do you have a problem with CQ? 

tu_holmes

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #69 on: January 30, 2009, 02:58:27 PM »
I read this yesterday.

My questions are this.

Is it a private school?
Does the school "make money" (Is it a profit center)?
Does my tax dollars fund this school?

If the answer is yes to any of them... Then this should not be allowed.

However, if the answer is no to all of them, then it is their right to do as they see fit.

My real question is to the lesbians in question... If you're a lesbian and the school hates you, why would you even want to go to school there?


tonymctones

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #70 on: January 30, 2009, 03:05:05 PM »
I read this yesterday.

My questions are this.

Is it a private school?
Does the school "make money" (Is it a profit center)?
Does my tax dollars fund this school?

If the answer is yes to any of them... Then this should not be allowed.

However, if the answer is no to all of them, then it is their right to do as they see fit.

My real question is to the lesbians in question... If you're a lesbian and the school hates you, why would you even want to go to school there?
alot of agencies that i dont agree with are funded by the government thats a weak arguement although i agree but if your gonna be ok with one you have to be ok with all.

CQ

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #71 on: January 30, 2009, 03:07:51 PM »
What values do you have a problem with CQ? 

Christian values like "treat others like you want to be treated" , "let he without sin cast the first stone" are great, I love them.

This isn't surprising though. Many things are done in the name of religion and god. It's always been a cry that preceeds wars, terrorist attacks and discrimination.

Dos Equis

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #72 on: January 30, 2009, 03:25:59 PM »
Christian values like "treat others like you want to be treated" , "let he without sin cast the first stone" are great, I love them.

This isn't surprising though. Many things are done in the name of religion and god. It's always been a cry that preceeds wars, terrorist attacks and discrimination.

Are you talking about the process or the ultimate decision? 

The Golden Rule doesn't require a Christian school to accept what they believe is immoral behavior.   

CQ

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #73 on: January 30, 2009, 03:29:48 PM »
Are you talking about the process or the ultimate decision? 

The Golden Rule doesn't require a Christian school to accept what they believe is immoral behavior.   

Why stop there? Fornication is a 10 commandment, why not let schools toss out kids who were born out of wedlock. Never ends.

How about being nice to people? Treating others well? That is what I think a true Christian does, but the meaning of Christianity is changing, it's becoming more a matter of judging others - not extending a hand.

tu_holmes

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Re: School can expel lesbian students, court rules
« Reply #74 on: January 30, 2009, 03:52:56 PM »
alot of agencies that i dont agree with are funded by the government thats a weak arguement although i agree but if your gonna be ok with one you have to be ok with all.

Agencies are "publicly funded".

My point is that if it's not publicly funded, then you don't have to be bound by the rules of equality.