I'll be onstage competing again in 3 months (definite)

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

I couldn't work out there.  There's no squat rack, lack of benches, and I'd be worried about putting dents in that nice floor.   

The floor is actually a polymer wood inlay.  You can drop a dumbbell and it won't leave a scratch.  Those were only a few areas of the gym, it does have a freeweight section and they have Russian Kettlebell classes every day

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

I don't know who that is.  Odd Haugen owned the gym and I can't remember the guy who ran the Pro Shop but that wasn't the name.  I was the Promotions and Marketing director there when it first opened and help setup the equipment.  And if a monkey could do it then why when 24 Hour Fitness took over the exact location, the sales dipped below $250,000 for the year from the Pro Shop.  And in fact the location on Kalakaua in Waikiki of 24 Hour Fitness continued to sell Gold's Gym products when the took over that location.  I video taped the Pro Shop employee telling me that if they didn't have Gold's Gym shirts in there they wouldn't sell anything.  Plus, since it is so easy to sell in Hawaii as you say and the smaller gyms are so much better.  How do you explain why the smaller gyms don't do at least $100,000 a year from their pro shop and have 4,000+ members.  There were quite a few smaller hole in the wall gyms there.  Not now cause they were put under by 24 Hour Fitness (what's with that?).  This is a dumb debate cause it is a little different in each market.  But as a whole, smaller gyms do not make it.  That is a fact.  I do know the Wellness Centers are fast becoming popular.  But, larger gyms that start providing this service will kill every smaller location and independant.

I moved to Vegas from Hawaii to open a chain of clubs.  I had the financial backing and I spent over one year putting together a solid business plan that got me the best of the best helping me and going to manage the club.  The current piece of shit economy has set everything back for I have no idea how long.  But, the one thing I do is research and make sure everything is put together right.  I must have done a pretty good job cause I had some very well known and respected people wanting to be involved.  These are people who have been involved with some very very big projects.  So, no matter what I may look like now I still know this industry and have the contacts to do things. 

Larger Gyms can provide the service but they won't be able to be price competitive with a smaller facility because of the overhead.  Bigger isn't always better

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

Somehow I doubt people with discretionary income want to work out in a trailer.

There are so many treadmill, pilates, Body Pump, etc.. classes going on, it's a surprise people aren't trying to open minimalist gyms. Most guys would love to go to a $20-25/month gym with weights only. Hard part is finding a cheap enough space that isn't so far off the the beaten path. One of the problems is that commercial real estate tends to be the last thing to crack when the economy goes south. Also, a lot of people would rather have the tax write-off than take less money especially considering many of the costs are fixed.

If you open a minimalist gym, you'll then have to compete with a franchise gym and you'll often be on the losing end of the deal.  Even if you were the only gym in town,  you can't keep a place open charging only 20 bucks a month to members....that would be complete suicide.

[onlyme]

Larger Gyms can provide the service but they won't be able to be price competitive with a smaller facility because of the overhead.  Bigger isn't always better

Actually a larger gym can offer lower prices because they deal in numbers.  That is why here memberships are $18 a month and 24 Hour Fitness memberships are $28 a month.  They deal in big numbers.  A smaller gym could no way ever survive a membership war with the big boys.  They would get destroyed.  Overhead is lower but the potential income is even lower.  They wouldn't be able to sell enough memberships to cover the overhead and plus they are linited to how many members could even fit into the space.  Big gyms offer more than any smaller gym could.  If done right they could provide the personal service too that smaller places offer.  The problem with most of them is they don't offer it. 

[drkaje]

If you open a minimalist gym, you'll then have to compete with a franchise gym and you'll often be on the losing end of the deal.  Even if you were the only gym in town,  you can't keep a place open charging only 20 bucks a month to members....that would be complete suicide.

I disagree and here's why;

Many franchise gyms don't allow chalk, loud music, swearing, yelling, calling each other fags, grunting, dumbells over 80 lbs and none of the raw aggression/testosterone/demons people attend gyms to exercise.

A basic gym would do fine providing it was in a low overhead location.

Where people go wrong is trying to imprint their own personality on a place instead of recognizing that members just want to be left alone. No one, except us, gives a fuck about our personalities. Most of our egos can't handle that simple truth so people will reinventing the wheel or building something that makes them feel good/validated instead of money.

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

Actually a larger gym can offer lower prices because they deal in numbers.  That is why here memberships are $18 a month and 24 Hour Fitness memberships are $28 a month.  They deal in big numbers.  A smaller gym could no way ever survive a membership war with the big boys.  They would get destroyed.  Overhead is lower but the potential income is even lower.  They wouldn't be able to sell enough memberships to cover the overhead and plus they are linited to how many members could even fit into the space.  Big gyms offer more than any smaller gym could.  If done right they could provide the personal service too that smaller places offer.  The problem with most of them is they don't offer it. 

Most gyms won't add specialized services because their main goal is memberships, memberships, memberships regardless of whether they use it or not.  Personal Trainers are no more than the cheerleaders of the gym to get MORE membership.

That's where you are right....it is about the number of memberships and not whether the individual is successful in their goals or not.  That's why the private studios are coming strong.  People want results, not a sales pitch or to be another number

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

I disagree and here's why;

Many franchise gyms don't allow chalk, loud music, swearing, yelling, calling each other fags, grunting, dumbells over 80 lbs and none of the raw aggression/testosterone/demons people attend gyms to exercise.

A basic gym would do fine providing it was in a low overhead location.

Where people go wrong is trying to imprint their own personality on a place instead of recognizing that members just want to be left alone. No one, except us, gives a fuck about our personalities. Most of our egos can't handle that simple truth so people will reinventing the wheel or building something that makes them feel good/validated instead of money.

That's where you would lose money.  The number of people who fit the profile you described is very low.  You would go out of business very quickly as there would not be enough memberships to stay open.  That would also be one shitty gym as someone would have to pay for all the damaged goods from trashing the place. 

And the only franchise that doesn't allow that stuff is Planet Fitness.

The Gold's Gym I trained at had dumbbells up to 175 pounds apiece, played heavy metal and rap music and grunting was allowed as well as chalk although I don't see any reason to call each other fags in the gym unless you're trying to hook up later or something.

[Doug_Steele]

Yep, right across from Bilo and McDonalds.  They used to have a great restaurant next to it called Locos.  They had the best steaks around.  I'd usually go there during breaks

I knew the owners and i knew that place was gonna fold.

[drkaje]

That's where you would lose money.  The number of people who fit the profile you described is very low.  You would go out of business very quickly as there would not be enough memberships to stay open.  That would also be one shitty gym as someone would have to pay for all the damaged goods from trashing the place. 

And the only franchise that doesn't allow that stuff is Planet Fitness.

The Gold's Gym I trained at had dumbbells up to 175 pounds apiece, played heavy metal and rap music and grunting was allowed as well as chalk although I don't see any reason to call each other fags in the gym unless you're trying to hook up later or something.

Is "let fools trash the place" written anywhere in my post?

Every serious lifter would gladly skip going someplace where half the people were either doing cardio or camped out on equipment between sets. There are enough serious lifters in most towns to keep a basic, no frills gym doing well providing the overhead is right. Sure, the owner would be driving a Benz and there would have to be advertising but people would support a clean, well run gym.

People who need a trainer to count reps or can't read a simple fitness article wouldn't feel comfortable in that atmosphere.

By "well run" I specifically mean equipment in good order, clean, organized entry and no sales going on aside from the normal protein shakes, bars and other typical gym crap.

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

I knew the owners and i knew that place was gonna fold.

Coke is a guy.

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

Is "let fools trash the place" written anywhere in my post?

Every serious lifter would gladly skip going someplace where half the people were either doing cardio or camped out on equipment between sets. There are enough serious lifters in most towns to keep a basic, no frills gym doing well providing the overhead is right. Sure, the owner would be driving a Benz and there would have to be advertising but people would support a clean, well run gym.

People who need a trainer to count reps or can't read a simple fitness article wouldn't feel comfortable in that atmosphere.

By "well run" I specifically mean equipment in good order, clean, organized entry and no sales going on aside from the normal protein shakes, bars and other typical gym crap.

There is not enough "serious lifters" around to sustain the cost of running the gym even if you got them all. 

[Noel Fuller]

Easy answer everybody who visited Hawaii and worked out wanted a golds gym tank to take home , thats a tourist club, Golds gym meant something then when they were the name in fitness and bodybuiling was popular, what does a 24 hour shirt with no location printed on do for people...nothing. 24 hour has horrible pro shops

[Doug_Steele]

Coke is a ####.

Tell Andy that too!! Sniff Sniff....I always wondered why his knose was always running

[onlyme]

Easy answer everybody who visited Hawaii and worked out wanted a golds gym tank to take home , thats a tourist club, Golds gym meant something then when they were the name in fitness and bodybuiling was popular, what does a 24 hour shirt with no location printed on do for people...nothing. 24 hour has horrible pro shops

That proves my point.  Franchised Gyms like Gold's and World's has valuable brand awareness which is the #1 reason you get any franchise.  People recognize the name and want what they have. Marketing a franchise is a whole lot easier and cheaper than trying to do it from scratch with an independant gym.

[Noel Fuller]

Worlds is now a failed franchise, Ballys has now been bankrupt twice in 17 months, Golds has a bad connotation as a muscle head gym in most markets, 24 hour is a corporate gym that has failed in a couple of markets already  tell me again how name recognition helps?

[Vince B]

The concept of what a gym is has changed over the years. When the original Golds opened it was about 3000 square feet. The current one at Venice is 10 times that. Aerobic classes and machines are now included in every large gym. Instead of catering to bodybuilders clubs now try to cater to everyone. It all comes down to the needs of various people.

Women are not that easy to get and keep in clubs. That is why so many women's only clubs have flourished. Women with average figures don't like to be seen by men in that condition. Anyway, who knows what is in their minds!

Melvin is probably right about his approach to club size. The 20,000+ square foot club is an expensive operation. Consider that these large, modern clubs are open from 6 am until 9 pm or longer. Imagine the costs of rent, air-conditioning and staff? Gyms are clearly a high-investment-low return business. Melvin figures if he sets up a small club and provides more personal attention that this is what will benefit members and he will be successful. There are no guarantees in the gym business. People have been seeking 'the formula' for decades. Sometimes a formula works for years and then it folds. It truly is difficult to predict where the industry is going.

A butcher once told me that he had to change his shop around every 10 years. That surprised me. The concept of what a butcher shop was has changed and keeps changing. The way products are displayed, lighting, etc. Gyms are no different. When over 20% of the population goes to a health club that means there will always be some bodybuilders and other serious trainees. These people have special needs. Have you noticed that the general public have little or no idea about what equipment is good equipment. Bodybuilders are usually more particular about having effective equipment. So there will be a market for a really well-equipped club in most towns over 50,000 people. You have to wonder why 2 gyms are necessary in a small town like Sylva with only 2500 people. When you go to small towns the gyms usually have primitive equipment. Of course, every club advertises that they are fully equipped.

I think a club with really good gym equipment and some cardio machines can be viable. If the club has knowledgeable trainers it could make a huge difference. The huge clubs might have trouble staying profitable. Chains are also a worry when times get tough or if market penetration rises. The city of Perth was interesting several decades ago. They sold lifetime memberships and just about everyone was joining. Eventually the whole chain collapsed because it was not sustainable. Lessons have been learned but what we see is diversification and new concepts emerging. It is hardly a static industry. Keith is correct in that you need to have experience, sales and marketing staff and a good business plan to succeed in this industry. I can't imagine Melvin being successful in a one-horse town when that place already has to gyms. It isn't going to happen but of course Melvin can prove us wrong.

[Noel Fuller]

You can beat anybody if your marketing is good, hell Curves sold shit for years on good marketing . Golds name is worth nothing now and they raised their franchise fee went through the roof, totally not worth it.

[Vince B]

Curves is a phenomenon for sure. How the %#%# did a club with hydraulic machines even survive long enough to make a profit yet alone expand all over the place? Someone clearly saw how foolish women are about what they perceive will happen to them if they use resistance machines. Can anyone besides Goodrum get results on those hydraulic circuit machines? A mystery. Curves sets up without showers and calls itself a health club. The size of their clubs is small and the investment low. Good if you can get away with it. They have lasted longer than they deserve. Heck, I know people who go there! They are doing lots of things right. It proves that marketing and concept is absolutely crucial here. Just being the best isn't always sufficient. You have to get the word out there.

What works in some places or countries might not work in others. Everyone planning a new club has to decide what he is going to offer and how big a premise he requires. Most gym owners are not good businessmen so that is why so many decline after a while. Knowing about exercise and bodybuilding doesn't guarantee success in this industry. What Goodrum is talking about could work. However, guys like him with fringe qualifications don't deserve to succeed. What does he really know that people will pay money for? He isn't going to give them professional, quality equipment, either. If he is smart he will hire knowledgeable people.

Back in the sixties there were gym chains around that had basic, chromed equipment and various vibration machines. Sounds like Goodrum is going to resurrect that kind of club but without the chrome!

Sir Richard Branson is enterring the gym industry in Australia and is making an impact. Go visit his Virginactive site and see what their concept is. Quite refreshing and filled with every gimmick around. This is what a successful businessman has put together. Lots of people are talking about how great it is and are joining. He makes it easy to quit because you can give 3 days notice and stop them billing you every fortnight. I will go there today and report back. Businessmen usually provide the customers with what marketing tells them they want. Gym owners and bodybuilders try to guess what they want instead of doing marketing research.

www.virginactive.com.au/

[The Showstoppa]

Vince B.  quit rambling on and on you old turd.

[onlyme]

Worlds is now a failed franchise, Ballys has now been bankrupt twice in 17 months, Golds has a bad connotation as a muscle head gym in most markets, 24 hour is a corporate gym that has failed in a couple of markets already  tell me again how name recognition helps?

lA failed World's Gym makes 100's of more money than a small hole in the wall.  Once Planet Fitness bought World's Gym it went downhill cause they didn't do shit for the franchisees yet raised fees.  Once Joe died Mike got rid of it.  Now Planet Fitness sold it and since they owned it they had lost 100+ franchises around the world.  The problem with Ballys is far from not having clients.  They have more clients nationwide than any gym franchise or corporate by far.  Again, this is the horrible management problem.  Gold's too.  Once Pete and company sold out Gold's was due to fail cause the owners did not know how to run it.  But they did make a $50+ million profit in 3 years when they sold it and the new owners will make probably $200+ million profit when the y sell it or probably more when they go public.  Gold's has less gyms now than they had in 1999 yet they are worth more.  Please don't make me explain this.  Any agruement you have with franchised gym against independant is a lost cause, because numbers don't lie.  Ask 1 million people in your state if they heard of Gold's Gym or Bill Pec's gym (or whatever the name) and see who wins.  I can't believe you would argue over which is better name recognition.  And you ask me if I know business.  Wow! amazing

[onlyme]

You can beat anybody if your marketing is good, hell Curves sold shit for years on good marketing . Golds name is worth nothing now and they raised their franchise fee went through the roof, totally not worth it.

I agree with the Gold's Statement but you don't why they did that but I do.  The people who run Gold's now are NOT gym people they are college grads who sole purpose is to make the corporation money and that's it.  The way they are doing it is not popular and has ruined the largest international gym chain in the world.  But, in the end they will raise $100's of millions of dollars when no way in hell would an independant do anything near that ever.  And you are rigth about marketing too.  But, there is a limit to what you can market.  No matter how could your marketing is in the gym business if you can't provide it then it won't work.  Any club that opens nowadays that is less than 15,000 in size is going to struggle.  They just can't provide the services and amenities and bring in enough members to support themselves in such a small area.  How can a small club provide services that people want nowadays.  And if they can it takes room.  How may members can you fit in your gym a day.  LVAC here on eastern averages 6000 members a day and the new one does at least that plus anther 2000 a day.  A small gym like Goodrum and you are talking about can't move that number of people through it in a month barely (most of the time NO).  You know how may smaller gyms were bought up or converted to Gold's Gyms, World Gym and other franchised clubs.  Plenty!  Because the owners knew they couldn't compete with them.  But, now Gold's is so fucked up that now they are losing franchisees and club.  But then they now have 100+ corporate clubs and worth more money.

[Vince B]

The problems members have is the same everywhere. They have to know what to do and then keep motivated or they drop out. The way clubs are evolving memberships and personal training are separate. People without much money can't afford instruction. That is not good for longevity. Curves provides constant help and encouragement so solves the instruction and motivation problem. Big gyms suck at showing interest to members. Thus, it is possible to set up a smaller club and provide really good instruction and be there all the time for members.

Big cities can have specialist clubs and that surely happens in Los Angeles and has been that way for decades. I recall the first time I visited Los Angeles in 1968. When I drove through Hollywood to Santa Monica I passed lots of health clubs. They were everywhere it seemed. At the time there was a dungeon gym in Santa Monica and Golds Gym on Pacific Avenue. In Studio City there was Vince's Gym. That was the first gym that sold T-shirts in a big way and courses through the mail. Where are they now? Keith is right about that. On the other hand would the original Golds still be viable if resurrected exactly like it was when Arnold and others trained there from 1968?

[Vince B]

Virginactive is a revelation. Dumbbells go up to about 40 Kg or about 90 pounds. Equipment is Technogym and the better quality from that company. Everything looks impressive but the equipment area is not as big as it could be. Lots of rooms downstairs for aerobics, spin, etc., with wooden floors and glass everywhere. Logos and colour are everywhere. 3 selling offices near reception. 25 metre indoor pool adjacent to reception and open to the equipment areas. Not sure how that will be in the winter. Okay, now re smells, etc. Changerooms bright and shiny. Whole place is bright with light. 178 lockers. There is a basketball court outside. Children are catered to. If Goodrum saw this gym he would be impressed. Women are joining up. In the 3 months since they opened they have about 4000 members. About $100 to join and $45 every two weeks. Give them 3 days notice and you can cancel your membership. This place is a going concern. Big, bright, and interesting. Staff are young, friendly and enthusiastic. Lots to like about the place. Bodybuilders would be able to train here, too. No worries there. Not sure how it copes with the busy times but when I viisted there were lots and lots of vacant machines. They have an huge spa pool and sauna to relax in. Child minding, of course, plus activity rooms for kids and youngsters. I believe it cost something like $7 million to set up. Lots of staff there. Two were working the health bar. 3 sales staff, 2 on reception, 3 on child minding and then others in the gym area, plus office staff. Running costs would exceed $40,000/week. Not for the meek or weak!

Now what was Goodrum's plan? Oh, yes, 1500 square feet personal training studio with a few pilates units and a couple of vibration machines. Virginactive had a room of those vibration machines, too.

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

Virginactive is a revelation. Dumbbells go up to about 40 Kg or about 90 pounds. Equipment is Technogym and the better quality from that company. Everything looks impressive but the equipment area is not as big as it could be. Lots of rooms downstairs for aerobics, spin, etc., with wooden floors and glass everywhere. Logos and colour are everywhere. 3 selling offices near reception. 25 metre indoor pool adjacent to reception and open to the equipment areas. Not sure how that will be in the winter. Okay, now re smells, etc. Changerooms bright and shiny. Whole place is bright with light. 178 lockers. There is a basketball court outside. Children are catered to. If Goodrum saw this gym he would be impressed. Women are joining up. In the 3 months since they opened they have about 4000 members. About $100 to join and $45 every two weeks. Give them 3 days notice and you can cancel your membership. This place is a going concern. Big, bright, and interesting. Staff are young, friendly and enthusiastic. Lots to like about the place. Bodybuilders would be able to train here, too. No worries there. Not sure how it copes with the busy times but when I viisted there were lots and lots of vacant machines. They have an huge spa pool and sauna to relax in. Child minding, of course, plus activity rooms for kids and youngsters. I believe it cost something like $7 million to set up. Lots of staff there. Two were working the health bar. 3 sales staff, 2 on reception, 3 on child minding and then others in the gym area, plus office staff. Running costs would exceed $40,000/week. Not for the meek or weak!

Now what was Goodrum's plan? Oh, yes, 1500 square feet personal training studio with a few pilates units and a couple of vibration machines. Virginactive had a room of those vibration machines, too.

Basile, you are as dumb as you are old.  While I will have group pilates classes, this will mostly consist of standard commerical equipment.  Obviously I would have a variety of clients so it would only be required.

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

Bump