investigating "palumboism"

[Lothar]

Final Stage
Final Stage

[Marble]

cripes, you guys are all useless.

here's my best guess: excessive use of GH in particular causes a great degree of fat cell death, but a certain amount of fat is necessary to live, so palumboism is the adaptation.  severe gh abuse also leads to some amount of insulin resistance(which may be related to the changes in fat cells), another known part of the cause of lipodystrophy.  hyperlipidemia from androgens wouldn't help.  this would all mirror the lipoatrophy seen from PI and HAART, but with a different cause; in fact, part of the treatment for that form is, ironically, GH itself.

so the net effect of the lipoatrophy and lipogenesis would be the division and creation of the more hardy fat cells centrally located, as well as a loss of intra-muscular and peripheral fat.  some bodybuilders try to make up for this with large amounts of site oil (palumbo).  muscle groups where this can't be done well turn to twigs (forearms, thighs).

the so-called GH gut is probably more directly caused by slin and LR3IGF-I in serious dosages.  GH in particular actually can reduce the gut(at lower dosages) via downregulation of PPARgamma expression.  this same downregulation is part of what kills fat cells off.  LR3IGF-I increases muscle sensitivity and doesn't fiddle with the PPARgamma receptor like that; in fact, it can cause expression of PPARg mRNA.  so, it wouldn't cause palumboism the same way GH would, but it will lead to greater intestinal hyperplasia and hypertrophy.

now i'm crawling back to the hardcore board where i belong.

[crucialtimes]

freakin hilarious!  i haven't been on here for a good 3-4 months and i see the rebirth of the palumboism thread!  amazing...

for old time sakes:



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[DEFCON]

cripes, you guys are all useless.

here's my best guess: excessive use of GH in particular causes a great degree of fat cell death, but a certain amount of fat is necessary to live, so palumboism is the adaptation.  severe gh abuse also leads to some amount of insulin resistance(which may be related to the changes in fat cells), another known part of the cause of lipodystrophy.  hyperlipidemia from androgens wouldn't help.  this would all mirror the lipoatrophy seen from PI and HAART, but with a different cause; in fact, part of the treatment for that form is, ironically, GH itself.

so the net effect of the lipoatrophy and lipogenesis would be the division and creation of the more hardy fat cells centrally located, as well as a loss of intra-muscular and peripheral fat.  some bodybuilders try to make up for this with large amounts of site oil (palumbo).  muscle groups where this can't be done well turn to twigs (forearms, thighs).

the so-called GH gut is probably more directly caused by slin and LR3IGF-I in serious dosages.  GH in particular actually can reduce the gut(at lower dosages) via downregulation of PPARgamma expression.  this same downregulation is part of what kills fat cells off.  LR3IGF-I increases muscle sensitivity and doesn't fiddle with the PPARgamma receptor like that; in fact, it can cause expression of PPARg mRNA.  so, it wouldn't cause palumboism the same way GH would, but it will lead to greater intestinal hyperplasia and hypertrophy.

now i'm crawling back to the hardcore board where i belong.

That was well written. You should be involved in the Palumboism handbook and subsequent website.

[flexfan]

That was well written. You should be involved in the Palumboism handbook and subsequent website.

However, he could have just made all of that up and I wouldn't know any better. ALmost all of it was unintelligeable to the common man.

[Prime]

Booooooooom Babyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Few things make me laugh like i did when i saw this post

[DEFCON]

However, he could have just made all of that up and I wouldn't know any better. ALmost all of it was unintelligeable to the common man.

that's ok, it sounded good!

[buffbodz]

Marble...I think what it comes down to is knowing what you are doing...and also knowing your genetic limit.

Ronnie and Jay use BB as income..it's their bread and butter.  they can't afford to look as bad as palumbo.  Palumbo on the other hand treats himself like a third reich lab jew.

Jay's and Ronnie's "palumboism" is probably just as bad as Dave's, it's just that they are more muscular and have better genetics...so it offsets the bad sides...ie" their shoulders and arms are huge, so their trunk doesn't look as "bloated."

That the answer.  Palumbo, while havening great genetics, their not as good as
Ronnie's or Jay's just to name 2, is constantly playing the size game at all costs.  He genetically maxed out a few years ago, but inseasts that more is better.  He could easily IMO been a top pro if he didn't experiment on himself with all the androgens.

The 2005  Dave Palumbo doesn't even  resemble, bodywise, the Dave of the early 90S.  A lesson to be learned.

[Mobil]

even though daves physique looks bad, hes still a hell of a nice guy. ive yet to meet a pro or top amatuer that would openly give advice on supplements like him. i think the main reason why he is so popular is becuase hes such a nice guy.

[DEFCON]

even though daves physique looks bad, hes still a hell of a nice guy. ive yet to meet a pro or top amatuer that would openly give advice on supplements like him. i think the main reason why he is so popular is becuase hes such a nice guy.

how hard is it to give advice on supplements? I get asked almost every day and I always give a good answer. I'm a nice guy too!

[Hedgehog]

even though daves physique looks bad, hes still a hell of a nice guy. ive yet to meet a pro or top amatuer that would openly give advice on supplements like him. i think the main reason why he is so popular is becuase hes such a nice guy.

Advices coming from Palumbo...

It's not like he's the greatest poster boy for how to use gear, you think?

It just blows my mind that he actually has a column in MD where he gets to hand out advices on the hardcore aspect of bodybuilding. Palumboism, hallo?!!

Yeah, likeable fellow. But healthy looking?

YIP
Zack

[Mobil]

yes but he makes alot more money then many pros do and he isnt even  a pro.

[Soldier of Iron]

yes but he makes alot more money then many pros do and he isnt even  a pro.

Selling fake GH must be very profitable for Dave. I wonder if he hustles his commissary inside of prison.

[Bast1]

He won't be making much money any longer.

[Mobil]

heres jay and corimer pre-gh abuse... notice how jays jawline is more normal and how corimier doesnt have the mushroom cloud head.

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[Soldier of Iron]

WOW.  Cormier used to have a normal head 

[Marble]

Now, I'm not tryin to diss anyone or get involved in the whole palumbo haten thing, but, I've been looking at that issue that causes stomach distension in a very simple way. 

How do almost all pros look when they first come on to the scene?  GREAT! Usually top-notch with symmetry and all.  Look at Ronnie when he first turned pro- 2000,  Or Titus when he was an amateur; amazing structure with nothing popping out in weird places, etc. 

Fast forward to 5-10 years later when the athlete makes a lot more money and has been on the scene for a while, and poof! The aesthetics are gone, along with a bigger face (yes it's true), and overall a much wider, thicker bone structure. 

If you look at the pros that were always good - and probably never went overboard with relying on "something new" to get the "new look", they never had that problem. ( Example: Ray, Levrone, and all of the pre GH/Slin bodybuilders).  If you also look at athletes with limited income - I'll use Darrem Charles as an example; he never had that type of problem. (neither did he ever make any drastic jumps in competitive bodyweight from year to year).  I'm pretty sure that genetic predisposition has something to do with it, however, that's a different story.  Seeing what happens to those that suffer from the complication, would you really leave the decision to use Gh/slin to chance of genetic predisposition? I know I wouldn't...

If you look at it closely, you'll find that the athletes that are cashing in, and making drastic jumps in bodyweight with evident GH/Insulin use are those with this complication.  I'm sure that we all noticed Flex Wheeler's gut in the later days of his career. I'm sure that wasn't there when he first came on the scene and in the comeback he make in '02. 

Ask yourself this, which pre 1985 bodybuilder had that complication?  None that I know of... What came onto the scene in the 90's and became more and more popular in the late 90's?  GH and Insulin right?  Which one is it?  I have no clue, but I think it would be wise to stay away from both.   

Personally, like I've stated, I  never used GH or Slin.  I've been bodybuilding for 8 years and my waist looks better and better every year i compete.  Yea yea, I'm not one of the biggest guys on stage, neither am I pro or even close yet, but honest to God - I'd rather have my physique than Say Kovacs's or Titus's, or even a '97 Dorian.  Jay cutler is starting to fall into that too. You can see it in his lower abdominals, and his waist is getting even wider.   

Take it as you will, the bottom line is that it's pretty evident that the issue arose after the increased use/abuse of GH/Slin. 

it's a combination of the two.  GH produces more IGF-I which upregulates insulin receptors and causes its own growth.  in-vitro tests have been performed on human intestinal cells and the combination of IGF-I + slin is most potent, followed by IGF-I+ slin + GH, followed by slin + GH, followed by GH, followed by slin, followed by IGF-I on its own.  go fig.  GH by itself is almost entirely for bone growth and so-called mushroom head; IGF-I and slin won't do much here for various reasons.

whether lower doses of LR3IGF-I on its own causes any hypertrophy is debatable, and this might be a very good use of the drug.   what's also interesting is that the trophic effect is biphasic -- that is, there's a particular concentration where growth is optimally stimulated, and past there it actually gets *worse*.  how much worse further down the line, i don't know.  there's major synergy between slin and igf-i though on the trophy of the jejunum and duodenum.  we're talking 1+1=17 grade synergy.

palumboism, however, is something entirely different than simple intestinal hypertrophy.  ronnie and jay get major guts but their muscles don't shrink and they still get stupid shredded around the midsection.  this is a separate phenomenon.

[dominusvobiscum]

does he still have that Bodybuilder girlfriend ?
 

[flexfan]

I understand what you are saying.  From my speculation though, the complication targets older athletes such as Don youngblood, Kovacs, etc.  That being said, I still haven't seen "palumboism" in pre 90's athletes.  It only further proves the point that I'm trying to make that these "new" drugs, whether it be IGF-1, GH, Slin, or what have you are the cause of the complication.  Furthermore, since the athletes that suffer from the complication are significantly older athletes trying to compete with the younger guys, it leads me to believe that they are trying everything they can to beat out the newcomers.  I know my theory is WAY simplified, but to me it makes sense.  That's how I will avoid the complication (or both as you put it), in any case. 

Shari has Palumbism and he is relatively young.

[IronGame]

All this stuff is very funny.  But, I can't help feeling sorry for Palumbo.  He has f'd himself up bigtime.  I can't imagine what he will look like in 10 years (if he lives that long).

[Hedgehog]

Personally, like I've stated, I  never used GH or Slin. 

...and then, all of a sudden, bodybuilding had a future.

YIP
Zack

[Marble]

All this stuff is very funny.  But, I can't help feeling sorry for Palumbo.  He has f'd himself up bigtime.  I can't imagine what he will look like in 10 years (if he lives that long).

it's roughly the functional equivalent of extreme type 2 diabetes + really high cholesterol + acromegaly.  i think the second half (lives that long) is more important than the first (whether he looks okay).

i feel terrible for the guy too.  there's a thin line between passion and mental illness in our sport...

[Hedgehog]

it's roughly the functional equivalent of extreme type 2 diabetes + really high cholesterol + acromegaly.  i think the second half (lives that long) is more important than the first (whether he looks okay).

i feel terrible for the guy too.  there's a thin line between passion and mental illness in our sport...

Also the problem that when there's evidence suggesting that our lifestyle is unhealthy, eg high protein diets or steroid use, we're quick to question the source, but when research is backing us up, we are not as critical.

Considering my high protein diet of 200+ grams of protein per day, it would not be a very pleasant thing to read that it was devastating to my health to be on such a diet. Just exemplifying.

It's good to be critical, but it should go both ways. Also when the evidence presented is supporting our cause.

I think we need to seriously need to ask what was up with the lifestyle of the Ironagers, since so many of them are having heart problems. It's not only Arnold. There are plenty of others. One have to make the assumption that their diet was above average in quality in comparison to the average American, yet they're suffering from numerous helath problems.

Instead of just referring to statistical invarities, I think the sensible approach would be to see what could be done to prevent these medical problems.

I am by no means an expert in the field assisting substances. I just feel that it's a shame that so many people's health seem to be failing because the general attitude is that it's quite harmless if done correct. Well, then show those who now use how to use it without corrupting their healths.

here endeth the rant. Sorry for messing with a glorious thread BTW...

YIP
Zack

[Marble]

YIP
Zack

oh, i try to be balanced and honest even when it goes against what i'm doing.  i've changed my stance on numerous substances, most particularly milk thistle.  it's the only way to make rational decisions.  i don't think anything i said here exactly supports palumboism, which is an amazing phenomenon. 

their heart and cardiovascular symptoms are due unquestionably to their severe use of steroids.  period.  this is the biggest and most dangerous side effect of androgens; it's growth of the left ventricle, high blood pressure, and hyperlipidemia all in one unholy melange of doom.  you can manage these side effects, particularly through megadoses of garlic and wise use of fish oil, mild diuretics, vitamin b5, and other drugs, but it's going to cause plenty of damage.  you won't find anyone on the hardcore board who denies this.  hell, one of our current threads is entitled, "any regrets?"  we know and acknowledge the risks, and like to frame our board in the context of safety first, as best you can when messing with these chemicals.

personally, i've often listened to NIN's "Hurt" while shooting...

that said, steroids will not lead to gut enlargement beyond increasing intra-abdominal adiposity, and certainly won't cause palumboism.

fyi, high protein diets are only dangerous if you have pre-existing kidney problems.  they're quite bad in that situation, but otherwise you'll be fine.

[Hedgehog]

fyi, high protein diets are only dangerous if you have pre-existing kidney problems.  they're quite bad in that situation, but otherwise you'll be fine.

Yeah, I was just making an example which would apply to myself. It's easy for me to just say Go Natural! in regards to ergogenics. But I thought back of when I read a report on how high protein was bad, and how I treated that report, instantly trying to find studies that proved it wrong, which I did.

I sometimes read threads on the hardcore board, and you all seem, as you claim, realistic. Not that my opinion counts for much, since I got no knowledge.

Back to Palumboism:

Is it possible that the receptors get shut down permanently through continous use? And that the receptors in the limbs gets shut down first? Hence causing the atrophy in legs and arms seen clearly in both Kovacs and Palumbo. Could the GH somehow be blamed?

Just asking some questions here, not making statements.

YIP
Zack