Unfortunately you missed the point of my posting. I brought up the braindead NYU protesters to prove a point that the "best and brightest" this country has to offer has become a sorry imitation of those that came before them. I never lumped you in with those lame and cowardly nitwits. All courage and no consequences because mommy and daddy pay 30k a semester for me to go to a University in the Village where I can pretend to be a radical for a few minutes. I can request a bunch of aimless, useless and laughable demands which will inevitably be denied by the equally pathetic school administrators. I wont spend 10 seconds in a city jail, or even be suspended from school. I'll get my face on New York One News, I'll burn a few trash cans, and then I'll hang out in my spacious air conditioned dorm with my brothers and sisters at arms and smoke some grass while trading "war stories" about how we stood up to the big bad system predicated by the oppressive American imperialists that are at the whim of the horrible "multinational corporations."
If we are discussing the real issue of torture why bring this crap up at all? I mean who cares what goes on in the ivory towers of universities if the activity is not germane to the issue at hand.
You speak of torture as if it has never been part of our countries history. 
Are you naive or joking? Officially all civilized countries are against "torture", just like all civilized countries have laws against "murder". And what is your definition of torture? Loud music? Shaving? Sense deprivation? Are you fucking kidding me? How else are we supposed to get information from terrorist detainees captured on the battlefield? Do you have a suggestion?
Torture doesn't work. Torture is against the law. Outside of Bush, I'm sure you can point to many laws that codify the propriety of torture. You seem very sure of yourself.
Should we offer all of them asylum? Should we ask them nicely? Should we give them money and hope they give us the right information?
We could ask the same of any suspect detained for any crime in the US.
Why do you think torture is going to make a difference. Torture will yield exactly what the torturer wants - information. The truth of that information is dubious at best b/c a torture victim will say anything to stop the torture.
Unless of course you watch 24 the tv show. Then it all makes perfect sense.
It's not that our country despises torture to such a degree that it's written into our constitution - it's b/c I want to feel good about myself helping out people who are poor yet want to kill me.
My postings are predictable? The law, human life, the golden rule--simple concepts that have stood the test of time.
While your holier than thou act is very noble it's unrealistic and quite frankly scary. The terrorists dont scare me. Your worldview does. This country and this world doesn't exist in a book or in a lecture you heard in college- The golden rule doesn't extend beyond a philosophical tenet found in practically every religion and as something our parents and teachers tell us when we are young, to a viable way to defend the security of this country and its interests against a bunch of blood thirsty madmen. Reality demands pragmatism.
The golden rule is a feature of all major religions.
Christianity All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 7:1
Confucianism Do not do to others what you would not like yourself. Then there will be no resentment against you, either in the family or in the state.
Analects 12:2
Buddhism Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.
Udana-Varga 5,1
Hinduism This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others what you would not have them do unto you.
Mahabharata 5,1517
Islam No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself.
Sunnah
Judaism What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellowman. This is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary.
Talmud, Shabbat 3id
Taoism Regard your neighbor’s gain as your gain, and your neighbor’s loss as your own loss.
Tai Shang Kan Yin P’ien
Zoroastrianism That nature alone is good which refrains from doing another whatsoever is not good for itself.
Dadisten-I-dinik, 94,5
http://www.teachingvalues.com/goldenrule.htmlReality does not depend on pragmatism. Survival depends on pragmatism to a great degree (that's the problem with Christianity). Your reality is that all detainees are madmen who want to kill us. Is that true?
You don't know unless you caught them in the act. Why a trial? Trials work. They uncover facts, patterns...in other words, they contribute to knoweldge and hopefully some understanding.
Trials establish if you have the right guy in custody.
But you claim that's nonsense and that the torture should commense.
Answer me this: Do you see how that perspective puts you in line with the Nazis and terrorists themselves?
I'm not "being hard" or macho, your just being soft. You would rather let a known terrorist walk free and blow up a shopping mall than waterboard him. You would rather sit on your hands and do nothing instead of allowing your precious hands and pompous "values" to be tainted, no matter what the cost.
Forget about prolonging this debate-- I just have two questions; ...
I am afraid. But I don't let the fear win me over.
You let the fear win when you shitcan 100s of years of proven jurisprudential wisdom just b/c 19 arabs with boxcutters attacked us and still call us names.
I got news for you, we are our values. Which is why my Nazi question above is relevant.
Nobody has made the claim to do nothing. How do I know? You want to torture detainees and I want a trial. Both things are something.
What do you think should be done to extract information from the detainees, and how would you handle our national security concerns?
1. Questioning and trials.
Under your method of torture first, you'll get a story. It won't be true, but you'll get your story.
Vee have Vays of making you talk....Just what the fuck if that guy has nothing to say, i.e., you got the wrong guy Jack?
2. This thread is not about our national security concerns other than the issue of the propriety of torturing untried detainees.
