Author Topic: Official Montreal Screwjob thread (Read 9226 times)

Skeeter · « **on:** April 20, 2009, 05:04:36 PM »

Should be a good topic for discussion. Lots of opinions even though it happened quite a while ago.

mass 04 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 20, 2009, 05:10:01 PM »

This should be good. Bret was leaving, he should have jobbed. Shawn was a dick, but when you're told to drop the strap you do it IMO.

Montague · « **Reply #2 on:** April 20, 2009, 09:12:54 PM »

My favorite part of that whole incident was this interview a week later.

A lot of screwing going on in this - "the original" - shoot inteview.

Playboy · « **Reply #3 on:** April 21, 2009, 04:18:49 AM »

The one to blame here is McMahon. He promised Bret a certain finish and changed it behind his back so I don't blame Bret for being pissed. He was embarassed.

Shawn just did what he was asked to do by his boss. In the real world, you don't question your boss or you'll be fired. Understandable. But he shouldn't have lied about it after the fact to Bret's face.

In the end Bret won...3.7 million per year for 3 years with WCW.

Superboy Prime · « **Reply #4 on:** April 21, 2009, 05:01:51 AM »

McMahon had to do this because Bret would'nt drop the belt. Sure it was wrong but in the big picture Vince has to do what's best for the company. Bret is wrong because he thought because he was so loyal that Vince would give him a break. But the truth is buisness is buisness and that is more than friendship. WWE first and Vinces's personal beliefs second because I don't think he wanted to screw Bret but Bret wasn't doing what he was told. Sure Vince is a genius to take this incident to the next level and make more billions while Brett floundered and died off.

Case in point, Bret screwed Bret because he didn't understand the nature of the buisness beast will always override friendship in corparate America.

Montague · « **Reply #5 on:** April 21, 2009, 05:49:07 AM »

Bret’s biggest fan is Bret.
He let his ego get in the way of his character and his role in the business.

Bret was wrong to refuse, but what McMahon did was shitty, too.
Paul Heyman has said that Vince will put aside any and all personal differences for the betterment of the company. He will do anything for his company.

And that’s all great, but remember – IT’S VINCE’S COMPANY.
Vince will always have his company.
Bret has to go to work the next week…someplace new…and he’s got to keep his value in the industry.

I don’t know that it mattered much in the end. WCW couldn’t do anything with Bret. They took one of the greatest workers in history and totally underused him. They could have built on the Montreal angle like Vince did – look where he took that!

Right or wrong, Bret’s time was over. I would have liked to see Hitman go out in better fashion, but it didn’t happen.
And it seems that since SS ’97, every day has been a pity party for Bret.

But while he lost a lot, he needs to remember that he didn’t walk away with “nothing.” And he lost more than most guys are ever lucky enough to make.
He still came out ahead.

mass 04 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 21, 2009, 06:59:32 AM »

Quote from: Montague on April 21, 2009, 05:49:07 AM

Bret’s biggest fan is Bret.
He let his ego get in the way of his character and his role in the business.

Bret was wrong to refuse, but what McMahon did was shitty, too.
Paul Heyman has said that Vince will put aside any and all personal differences for the betterment of the company. He will do anything for his company.

And that’s all great, but remember – IT’S VINCE’S COMPANY.
Vince will always have his company.
Bret has to go to work the next week…someplace new…and he’s got to keep his value in the industry.

I don’t know that it mattered much in the end. WCW couldn’t do anything with Bret. They took one of the greatest workers in history and totally underused him. They could have built on the Montreal angle like Vince did – look where he took that!

Right or wrong, Bret’s time was over. I would have liked to see Hitman go out in better fashion, but it didn’t happen.
And it seems that since SS ’97, every day has been a pity party for Bret.

But while he lost a lot, he needs to remember that he didn’t walk away with “nothing.” And he lost more than most guys are ever lucky enough to make.
He still came out ahead.

exactly. Do i think Bret would have dropped the title in the trash on Nitro? No, but Hogan jobbed on his way out why not Bret?

Playboy · « **Reply #7 on:** April 21, 2009, 12:11:13 PM »

Everyone will always have an opinion on the screwjob but Bret has a HUGE fanbase all over the world. But what everyone forgets is what led to Bret Hart leaving WWE for WCW and that is Vince McMahon backing out of their 20 year deal. Technically, Vince started it all. Either way it is what it is. I too would have loved to see a better send off to Bret and he got a good reaction when they inducted him in the hall of fame. I think he should bury the hatched with Michaels. Michael's just did what his boss asked / told him to do.

mass 04 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 21, 2009, 12:52:18 PM »

Quote from: Playboy on April 21, 2009, 12:11:13 PM

Everyone will always have an opinion on the screwjob but Bret has a HUGE fanbase all over the world. But what everyone forgets is what led to Bret Hart leaving WWE for WCW and that is Vince McMahon backing out of their 20 year deal. Technically, Vince started it all. Either way it is what it is. I too would have loved to see a better send off to Bret and he got a good reaction when they inducted him in the hall of fame. I think he should bury the hatched with Michaels. Michael's just did what his boss asked / told him to do.

I'm not saying Vince is innocent on the whole thing. Bret had heat with Shawn long before Montreal, so it's a little deeper, Shawn denying involvment for 5+ years doesn't help. I feel bad for him with the stroke, Owen's death, Benoit, Davey, and the rest of his family squabbles, but he has to let it go.

The Showstoppa · « **Reply #9 on:** April 21, 2009, 02:19:58 PM »

Good thread. This was such a hotly debated subject at the time.

After this long, I think that there is enough blame to go around. I don't think Michaels deserves much. He was put into a tough position by Vince and by Bret asking him about it.

Vince: he was in the middle of a war with WCW and did what he thought was best for his company. It's easy to judge now, but at the time WCW was some serious competition for Vince. No reason they both couldn't have survived and thrived, but egos got in the way.....sorry topic for another post. In a perfect world he should have let Bret have say in how he dropped the strap, but he wanted a bigger impact on the PPV. I think Bret dropping it in a rematch on RAW the next night would have been a better choice and a huge ratings boost.

Bret: I think Bret thought he had earned the right to drop the belt as he wanted to. Sort of an unspoken tradition that if you have been a good employee, you have earned that right. There is no question that Bret was always a good employee. When he was asked by Vince to drop it in Canada (which is what Bret is supposed to have had the biggest problem with) he could have just done the job and walked away.

Verdict: I put more blame on Vince. Bret had earned the right to have that much say in when he dropped the title, IMO.

leonp1981 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 21, 2009, 04:06:27 PM »

I think there's a big issue of trust here. Bret had worked for Vince for years, yet Vince didn't trust him to drop the title the following night. Why was that? Had Bret done something or said something which suggested to Vince that he might not play along, or does Vince simply not trust anyone? I think there's blame on both sides. Bret should have gone along with the whatever he was told, that's his job. But Vince should not have gone back on the agreed ending to that match.

I must say, I loved how Vince said "even though I'm 52, I think there'd be a different outcome if there had been a confrontation." At the end of the day, you got knocked on your ass Vince.

Playboy · « **Reply #11 on:** April 22, 2009, 04:21:06 AM »

Quote from: leonp1981 on April 21, 2009, 04:06:27 PM

I think there's a big issue of trust here. Bret had worked for Vince for years, yet Vince didn't trust him to drop the title the following night. Why was that? Had Bret done something or said something which suggested to Vince that he might not play along, or does Vince simply not trust anyone? I think there's blame on both sides. Bret should have gone along with the whatever he was told, that's his job. But Vince should not have gone back on the agreed ending to that match.

I must say, I loved how Vince said "even though I'm 52, I think there'd be a different outcome if there had been a confrontation." At the end of the day, you got knocked on your ass Vince.

Alundra Blaze AKA Madusa was with WWE as women's champion and she showed up on WCW Nitro with the womens title and threw it in the trash, thus humiliating Vince and the WWE. Vince is an ego maniack and his company was already getting killed in ratings against WCW so that's why he did what he did with Bret. He didn't want to risk Bret Hart showing up on Monday Nitro with WWE title. Michael's was caught in the middle and in the end it's every man for himself. Better communication by Vince & Bret could have saved that disaster. He could have lost the title on Raw the next night with no issues.

Montague · « **Reply #12 on:** April 22, 2009, 06:12:18 AM »

That was a touchy time.
Vince’s company was in financial trouble.
Bret faced the dilemma of dealing with loyalty to and from Vince, as well as his own financial security and livelihood.
Bischoff was throwing around money like it was Ted Turner’s…
…because it was Ted Turner’s.

I don’t know Bret personally, but I don’t believe he would have done anything to disgrace Vince. And Vince may have believed that, too, at least until Bret refused to JOB on his way out.
Either way, Vince was too shrewd a businessman - especially at that point in time – to take any chance; even with Hart.

Also, think about how it would’ve looked from a story line standpoint:
Vince’s next top guy (Shawn) couldn’t beat Bret, and the only reason HBK got the title is that Bret "gave" it to him before leaving for a competition company.

I’m not trying to justify what McMahon did. His actions certainly don’t make him a nice person…
But nice guys usually don’t make it to the top because they don’t know how to trample the fvck out of their competitors and they don't have the cajones to overcome all obstacles and persevere.

Playboy · « **Reply #13 on:** April 24, 2009, 04:59:53 AM »

Quote from: cheftim on April 23, 2009, 11:24:42 PM

Are you from Canada or something? French Canadians aren't French. Their wannabes. McMahon is the boss of a multimillion dollar business. Bret Hart was just a tool/employee/another number. Your seeing this from your couch. Not from a board room with board members and shareholders. This is big business we're talking about. Vince doesn't give a shit less about the workers. HHH at holiday dinners, maybe? But in the ring he's just another number. The guy is a business man. An animal. He eats, sleeps, and breathes money/legacy. The fans care for the wrestlers. Not Vince. The world of big money is something the normal/pretty much everyone will never understand. Bret Hart earned his pay check. He was an employee. What planet are you from Showstoppa where the employee has earned the right to do what they want? As long as someone is paying you and your not your own boss? Don't think you cannot be replaced. This is a stupid topic to debate. Hats off to Vince for defeating all competition. F Bret.

Its called creative control which was in his contract which means Bret Hart had a right / say on how he wanted his match to finish especially since he was a devoted employee for the company for a long time. What people don't know is that while Hart agreed to lose the title to Michael's at WM12, Michael's was supposed to return the favor and job to Bret 1 year later at WM13 as per their agreement but the cry baby didn't want to do that. If you had a high profile job and your boss & another employee fucked you over and embarassed you in front of millions watching on a PPV basis not to mention a fellow worker who agrees to a finish and lies to your face, you would be fucking pissed too.

Playboy · « **Reply #14 on:** April 24, 2009, 11:26:50 AM »

Quote from: cheftim on April 24, 2009, 11:03:18 AM

Yeah I have that in my contract as well. I'm the creative one but my boss thats paying me has all the control! Bret will be pissed for life because he truly believes he's something that he's not. The guy was a employee. In Montreal he was bitch slapped with something called "Reality". Unless your your own boss? You have to do what your Boss says. Thats how the system works. The money, power, and Legacy is the only thing Vince cares about. He could give two shits less about the employee's or the fans. Vince is a business Man. Don't be fooled because he's made himself a character of the show. The guy only cares about himself and the WWE Legacy. He's a mean Guy. Thats why he is where his is. It was an absolutely perfect move.

That's a complete crock. If it wasn't for McMahon's roster who is talented and the fans attending shows, there would be no damn federation. That's the reality. After the screwjob the next night on raw, mick foley didn't show up, bulldog left, Neidhart left, Undertaker threatened not to show up unless McMahon apologized to Hart & his family, Rick Rude jumped to WCW, Vader left, need I go on? You don't screw people like that or it bites you in the ass, boss or not. That's the reality. McMahon is a genius but he also got lucky that WCW had poor management and crumbled or he would be the one out of business. That's the reality.

Playboy · « **Reply #15 on:** April 24, 2009, 12:40:38 PM »

Quote from: cheftim on April 24, 2009, 11:50:26 AM

McMahon is a business man. He's using his resources to create revenue. Thats what he's after. Three realities here. Only people from the WCW generation will know what it is. It's a a fairy tale now. A bedtime story. Second is that Bret Hart got more devistatingly owned more then anyone else in the history of Wrestling (possibly the World). I don't care if he got 10 million a year after that. He'll be a bitter man for the rest of his life because of it. And third is your a dope and have absolutey no business sense if you think Vincent Kennedy McMahon gives a shit about you or the wrestlers on his roster. It's all numbers to him. Foley didn't show up, Neidhart and bulldog left, Undertaker threatened to not show up? Blah blah blah. VKM won the War. What part of that is not crystal clear? Coulda, shoulda, woulda? Vince won.

1. Damn right he got 10 million. And believe me if you go 10 million you would have a very different mindset. And I never said VKM "cares" about his roster or the fans. I said that without them, he wouldn't have a business.

2. Simmer down and go have a beer. Its just an opinion and I am entitled to mine as you are to yours.

The Showstoppa · « **Reply #16 on:** April 24, 2009, 03:02:59 PM »

Quote from: cheftim on April 23, 2009, 11:24:42 PM

What planet are you from Showstoppa where the employee has earned the right to do what they want? As long as someone is paying you and your not your own boss? Don't think you cannot be replaced. This is a stupid topic to debate. Hats off to Vince for defeating all competition. F Bret.

WTF? Why start insulting like you are on the G&O board? I have often heard, maybe Karl can verify, that when a wrestler left a territory, or in this case, a federation, they are given some leeway as to how they would drop a title. Especially if a wrestler has been with someone for a long time. And don't try to compare the world of pro wrestling to ANY other job. It has/had it's own set of rules and traditions. I was simply pointing out my thoughts on one of those traditions.

Karl Kox · « **Reply #17 on:** April 27, 2009, 01:58:43 PM »

It is tradition that when you leave a Company or territory or even retire that you lose your last match. What good does it do to have a guy that will be there no longer win ? Perfect example look at Ric Flair. Bret did not want to do that cause he did not like Shawn so Vince did what he thought he had to do. Was it right ? That is a matter of opinion. A wrestler should always lose his last match.

The Showstoppa · « **Reply #18 on:** April 27, 2009, 02:11:38 PM »

Quote from: Karl Kox on April 27, 2009, 01:58:43 PM

It is tradition that when you leave a Company or territory or even retire that you lose your last match. What good does it do to have a guy that will be there no longer win ? Perfect example look at Ric Flair. Bret did not want to do that cause he did not like Shawn so Vince did what he thought he had to do. Was it right ? That is a matter of opinion. A wrestler should always lose his last match.

Didn't Bret want to drop the title the next night on RAW instead? Just not lose it in Montreal...

Montague · « **Reply #19 on:** April 27, 2009, 02:49:12 PM »

From a story line standpoint it’s not the same thing.
With Bret relinquishing the belt, it would be as if Shawn hadn’t beaten him – because he hadn’t.

Handing over the title the next night = Bret not losing on his way out.
And that may be the biggest reason that Vince did what he did - to save the reputation of his company and its stars.

mass 04 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 28, 2009, 07:00:57 AM »

Playboy · « **Reply #21 on:** April 28, 2009, 08:05:21 AM »

Quote from: mass 04 on April 28, 2009, 07:00:57 AM

Wrestling with Shadows. Good doc.

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/wrestling+with+shadows/video/x5y6xh_wrestling-with-shadows-pt-1

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/wrestling+with+shadows/video/x5y6yl_wrestling-with-shadows-pt-2

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/wrestling+with+shadows/video/x5y6zh_wrestling-with-shadows-pt-3

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/wrestling+with+shadows/video/x5y708_wrestling-with-shadows-pt-4

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/wrestling+with+shadows/video/x5y70w_wrestling-with-shadows-pt-5

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/wrestling+with+shadows/video/x5y71k_wrestling-with-shadows-pt-6

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/wrestling+with+shadows/video/x5y72h_wrestling-with-shadows-pt-7

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/wrestling+with+shadows/video/x5y733_wrestling-with-shadows-pt-8

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/wrestling+with+shadows/video/x5y73o_wrestling-with-shadows-pt-9

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/wrestling+with+shadows/video/x5y74g_wrestling-with-shadows-pt-10

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/wrestling+with+shadows/video/x5y74v_wrestling-with-shadows-pt-11

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/wrestling+with+shadows/video/x5y75c_wrestling-with-shadows-pt-12-final

Good documentry and it shows some excellent behind the scenes footage as to what the wrestlers go through on a nightly basis.

mass 04 · « **Reply #22 on:** April 28, 2009, 09:36:36 AM »

Quote from: Playboy on April 28, 2009, 08:05:21 AM

Good documentry and it shows some excellent behind the scenes footage as to what the wrestlers go through on a nightly basis.

I agree. I loved it. I have mixed feelings watching it though. On one hand Bret seems like a nice guy who is conflicted and trying to in his mind protect the business. On the other hand he sounds like a whiny little mark who really believes he's the hitman.

Playboy · « **Reply #23 on:** April 28, 2009, 10:27:01 AM »

Quote from: mass 04 on April 28, 2009, 09:36:36 AM

I agree. I loved it. I have mixed feelings watching it though. On one hand Bret seems like a nice guy who is conflicted and trying to in his mind protect the business. On the other hand he sounds like a whiny little mark who really believes he's the hitman.

Bret Hart seemed more stressed if anything. Like he was worn & torn.

I particularly enjoyed the part Jake Roberts wrestling in the independents where you see him pissing in a bucket...lol...shows how fucked up he is. Mick Foley's wife's reaction when he took those some odd 20 chair shots to the head from the rock at Royal Rumble that year in the "I quit match".

The Showstoppa · « **Reply #24 on:** April 28, 2009, 01:29:16 PM »

Quote from: Montague on April 27, 2009, 02:49:12 PM

From a story line standpoint it’s not the same thing.
With Bret relinquishing the belt, it would be as if Shawn hadn’t beaten him – because he hadn’t.

Handing over the title the next night = Bret not losing on his way out.
And that may be the biggest reason that Vince did what he did - to save the reputation of his company and its stars.

No, not just hand it over. I said lose it in a rematch to Shaun on RAW the next night. I thought that was what Bret suggested to Vince....I could be wrong.

Author Topic: Official Montreal Screwjob thread (Read 9226 times)

Skeeter