Author Topic: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?  (Read 2422 times)

The Ugly

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2009, 09:12:00 AM »
I am against the death penalty in all cases.  Too many have been executed while innocent and too many have been placed on death row even though they were later found to be innocent.  I do think 12-14 hour work days at whatever project the State has going is a better usage of the individual and is more punishing not to mention more cost effective as incarceration is by far cheaper than execution.

DNA has forever changed "wrongly executed."

That said, I'm sure your progressive sensibilities prevent you from imposing your morality on the victim's grieving family.



The True Adonis

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2009, 09:15:57 AM »
What if he pulls one out on you after you tried to bluff and he has a real one?
IF I am in a position to overpower him or if I can get in that position, I will try.  Or if I percieve that negotiations are more effective then trying to subdue, then negotiation begins.  I also may be able to get him to lower his guard with negotiations and THEN have an opportunity to overpower him.  I have read of successful attempts where the victim was able to negotiate the criminal into surrendering or to flee or what have you.

 If that doesn`t work, and he shoots me, then clearly I am out of options, but I did have at least several to consider.



The True Adonis

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2009, 09:17:48 AM »
DNA has forever changed "wrongly executed."

That said, I'm sure your progressive sensibilities prevent you from imposing your morality on the victim's grieving family.



DNA has NOT changed the equation absolutely.  DNA can easily be wrong, planted, mixed or just not enough.

The Ugly

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2009, 09:18:26 AM »
DNA has NOT changed the equation absolutely.  DNA can easily be wrong, planted, mixed or just not enough.

Yes, like on CSI, right?

headhuntersix

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2009, 09:20:45 AM »
Good thread Coach..TA first off the Dem would be dead....second that handgun u have is as much use as a boat anchor in the desert. Buy some friggen bullets.
L

Soul Crusher

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2009, 09:22:39 AM »
Good thread Coach..TA first off the Dem would be dead....second that handgun u have is as much use as a boat anchor in the desert. Buy some friggen bullets.

Maybe he could buy blanks this way the robber thinks he is shooting, but TA gets to fell that he actually wont be doing any harm to the mugger? 

The True Adonis

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2009, 09:22:56 AM »
DNA has forever changed "wrongly executed."

That said, I'm sure your progressive sensibilities prevent you from imposing your morality on the victim's grieving family.



Consider this.

I stab someone at a grocery store, there is only one other person in there.  The other person happens to be the boyfriend of the girl I stabbed.  They have a rocky relationship and he has been arrested for domestic abuse towards her in the past.

After stabbing the girl, I force the boyfriend to change clothes with me and I force him to take the knife.

I then call the cops anonymously and report seeing a disturbance in a grocery store.  Cops arrive and arrest the boyfriend. Their case is then built citing DNA evidence, prior record and motive.  The prosecutor wants the death penalty and feels his case is a slam dunk due to DNA.

The DNA points to the boyfriend and not me.  Is the DNA valid?

The Ugly

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2009, 09:23:46 AM »
IF I am in a position to overpower him or if I can get in that position, I will try.  Or if I percieve that negotiations are more effective then trying to subdue, then negotiation begins.  I also may be able to get him to lower his guard with negotiations and THEN have an opportunity to overpower him.  I have read of successful attempts where the victim was able to negotiate the criminal into surrendering or to flee or what have you.

 If that doesn`t work, and he shoots me, then clearly I am out of options, but I did have at least several to consider.

Funny, most Liberals would laugh or get a bit defensive about the silly characterization. But you ARE the characterization.  

Soul Crusher

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2009, 09:25:02 AM »
Consider this.

I stab someone at a grocery store, there is only one other person in there.  The other person happens to be the boyfriend of the girl I stabbed.  They have a rocky relationship and he has been arrested for domestic abuse towards her in the past.

After stabbing the girl, I force the boyfriend to change clothes with me and I force him to take the knife.

I then call the cops anonymously and report seeing a disturbance in a grocery store.  Cops arrive and arrest the boyfriend. Their case is then built citing DNA evidence, prior record and motive.

The DNA points to the boyfriend and not me.  Is the DNA valid?

Dont you realize that most stores have a security camera and other customers?????

The Ugly

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2009, 09:26:14 AM »
Consider this.

I stab someone at a grocery store, there is only one other person in there.  The other person happens to be the boyfriend of the girl I stabbed.  They have a rocky relationship and he has been arrested for domestic abuse towards her in the past.

After stabbing the girl, I force the boyfriend to change clothes with me and I force him to take the knife.

I then call the cops anonymously and report seeing a disturbance in a grocery store.  Cops arrive and arrest the boyfriend. Their case is then built citing DNA evidence, prior record and motive.

The DNA points to the boyfriend and not me.  Is the DNA valid?

Consider this. You don't form policy based on a movie of the fucking week scenario. Grow up.

The True Adonis

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2009, 09:26:26 AM »
Dont you realize that most stores have a security camera and other customers?????
Not all do, and not all are on and functioning, nor do are the effective 100 percent of the time.


Take cameras out of my scenario as they had none in the real scenario.  Is the DNA evidence valid?

The True Adonis

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2009, 09:27:37 AM »
Consider this. You don't form policy based on a movie of the fucking week scenario. Grow up.
This was an actual case by the way.

So, answer the question.  IS the DNA evidence valid?

Are you unable to answer?


Soul Crusher

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2009, 09:29:19 AM »
Consider this.

I stab someone at a grocery store, there is only one other person in there.  The other person happens to be the boyfriend of the girl I stabbed.  They have a rocky relationship and he has been arrested for domestic abuse towards her in the past.

After stabbing the girl, I force the boyfriend to change clothes with me and I force him to take the knife.

I then call the cops anonymously and report seeing a disturbance in a grocery store.  Cops arrive and arrest the boyfriend. Their case is then built citing DNA evidence, prior record and motive.  The prosecutor wants the death penalty and feels his case is a slam dunk due to DNA.

The DNA points to the boyfriend and not me.  Is the DNA valid?

Cases are not built entirely on DNA.  Your case falls apart because you are assuming the victim has the same size clothes as you.

also, there is no death penalty there under most laws because there are no aggravating circumstances.  

The True Adonis

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2009, 09:33:18 AM »
Cases are not built entirely on DNA.  Your case falls apart because you are assuming the victim has the same size clothes as you.

also, there is no death penalty there under most laws because there are no aggravating circumstances.  
Cases ARE built on Circumstantial evidence ALL the time.

DNA is not circumstantial evidence and in fact hard evidence and cases are built on it ALL the time.

The prosecutor surely did seek the death penalty and was able to proceed.

The True Adonis

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2009, 09:34:40 AM »
Cases are not built entirely on DNA.  Your case falls apart because you are assuming the victim has the same size clothes as you.

also, there is no death penalty there under most laws because there are no aggravating circumstances.  
Uh here is one built SOLELY on DNA.

East Side Rapist, Known Solely by DNA, Is Indicted
By JULIAN E. BARNES
Published: Thursday, March 16, 2000


With a series of genetic markers as their evidence, Manhattan prosecutors announced the indictment yesterday of the man known as the East Side rapist, even though investigators still do not know who he is.

The indictment, one of the few instances in the country that a DNA signature alone has been used to charge a crime,
will prevent the statute of limitations from expiring in three of the seven rapes the man is suspected of committing between 1994 and 1998. The grand jury charged him just four days before the five-year statute of limitations would have expired on the earliest attack cited in the indictment, said Robert M. Morgenthau, the Manhattan district attorney.

Police Commissioner Howard Safir said he believed that the East Side rapist was still at large.

''We think this is an innovative and creative way of holding those accountable for their actions,'' Mr. Safir said. ''With DNA technology we can convict someone today, tomorrow or 10 years from now.''

In October, prosecutors in Milwaukee announced that they had filed charges in a series of three rapes against a man known only by his DNA code. There has been at least one other such warrant based on DNA evidence, in a 1991 case in Kansas. No one has been apprehended in either case.

Prosecutors and legal experts predicted that the number of indictments based solely on DNA evidence would increase rapidly in coming years.

''This is a very new, very creative kind of prosecution,'' said Linda Fairstein, the chief of the Manhattan district attorney's sex crimes unit.

Lawrence Kobilinsky, a professor of forensic science at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, said that indicting a person known solely by DNA sequence was more precise than indicting a person known only by name.

''If you have someone with the name John Smith, there are probably thousands of people,'' Mr. Kobilinsky said. ''A genetic profile is a much better way to identify a single person.''

The East Side rapist attacked all but one of his victims between 64th and 91st Streets, west of Lexington Avenue after 2 a.m., the police said. He would typically follow a lone woman and slip into the lobby of her building before the door closed, said Lt. Thomas P. Carney, the commander of the Manhattan Special Victims Unit.

Lieutenant Carney said DNA evidence has eliminated two suspects in the attacks over the last year. One man who police followed last year matched the physical description of the suspect, frequented the same area and seemed to have difficultly dealing with women. But when officers tested two samples of his DNA, collected surreptitiously, the man was exonerated, Lieutenant Carney said.

The probability that a person other than the attacker has a DNA profile matching the one in the Manhattan indictment is 1 in 240 billion, Mr. Morgenthau said.

The rapist last struck a year and half ago, and some investigators think that he has left New York City. But police officers said the indictment ensures that their work will not go to waste if the rapist is eventually identified by name.

''From our standpoint, we have been working on this for three and a half years, we have done an enormous amount of work,'' Lieutenant Carney said. ''If the statute of limitations had passed, that would have been very disheartening.''

The statute of limitations has run out on 2 of the 16 attacks attributed to the East Side rapist, police officials said. The two attacks following those, on March 19 and Aug. 17, 1995, were included in yesterday's indictment, along with an rape on April 6, 1997.

Mr. Morgenthau said DNA evidence was recovered in a fourth attack linked to the East Side rapist and added that an indictment in that case was expected. Although DNA evidence does not exist in the other attacks, police have linked them to the same man by the description of the attacker and details on how he assaulted his victims, Lieutenant Carney said.

The victim of the Aug. 17 attack said in an interview last month that she was worried the statute of limitations would run out before her attacker was arrested. ''As far as I'm concerned, there should not be a time limit to prosecute these cases,'' she said.

Last month, Gov. George E. Pataki proposed eliminating the statute of limitations on rape and eight other types of crimes. Rape victim advocates and law enforcement officials urged removing the limitations in crimes in which DNA evidence can be used in prosecution years after a crime occurred.

But Susan Hendricks, deputy attorney in charge for the criminal defense division of the Legal Aid Society, expressed concern over the use of such indictments to circumvent statutes of limitations. As time passes, other evidence that could exonerate a suspect might disappear, said Ms. Hendricks, who contended that DNA evidence is not foolproof.

''The more time that passes, the more troubling this strategy is, because the more potential witnesses have been lost,'' she said. There are about 12,000 New York City rape cases in which the evidence has not been examined for a DNA signature. Mr. Morgenthau said his prosecutors and investigators were combing through old rape cases, looking for assaults that match a pattern, then conducting tests on DNA samples taken from the evidence. Cases that follow a pattern would be the first additional John Doe indictments made, he said. Mr. Morgenthau added that he had also asked state and city officials for an additional $500,000 to create a cold case squad for rape cases.

''We are going through them, trying to find patterns,'' Mr. Morgenthau said. ''We are starting to do it, but we need more funding.''



Soul Crusher

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2009, 09:35:30 AM »
Cases ARE built on Circumstantial evidence ALL the time.

DNA is not circumstantial evidence and in fact hard evidence and cases are built on it ALL the time.

The prosecutor surely did seek the death penalty and was able to proceed.

Most states require an aggravating circumstances for death penalty.

The Ugly

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #41 on: May 07, 2009, 09:37:02 AM »
This was an actual case by the way.

So, answer the question.  IS the DNA evidence valid?

Are you unable to answer?


So.

Perhaps. Maybe not.

I did.

And?      




The Ugly

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #43 on: May 07, 2009, 09:40:25 AM »
You are absolutely crippled by your open mind. You know this, right?

The True Adonis

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2009, 09:42:08 AM »
So.

Perhaps. Maybe not.

I did.

And?      



You just proved my point. YOU admitted DNA evidence is not an absolute when determining guilt or innocence and can be flawed and that the wrong people can easily end up facing the death penalty even with DNA evidence.



headhuntersix

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #45 on: May 07, 2009, 09:42:55 AM »
And what are the stats on that....
L

The True Adonis

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #46 on: May 07, 2009, 09:47:41 AM »
And what are the stats on that....
The error of DNA in court cases?

240 is Back

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2009, 10:01:29 AM »
when the gunfight does start - god forbid - you have to shoot center mass. 

Chances are inside 10 feet he'll be able to touch you even with a heart shot.  hitting him in the leg can still get you stabbed or covered in HIV blood, etc.

You make every effort to back out of the threat.  when cornered, you fire center mass until the threat is no longer a threat.  you dont shoot him in the back.  you likely get 1-2 shots in his midsection or chest then he turns and runs.  Then you run too.  You don't finish him, chase him, etc.  You run and call the police, the same action you'd do from the get-go if you have eevn a sliver or escape.

it is your responsibility to flee.  When you cannot flee, you fire until the threat is no longer a threat.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2009, 10:02:40 AM »
when the gunfight does start - god forbid - you have to shoot center mass. 

Chances are inside 10 feet he'll be able to touch you even with a heart shot.  hitting him in the leg can still get you stabbed or covered in HIV blood, etc.

You make every effort to back out of the threat.  when cornered, you fire center mass until the threat is no longer a threat.  you dont shoot him in the back.  you likely get 1-2 hots in his midsection or chest then he turns and runs.  Then you run too.  You don't finish him, chase him, etc.  You run and call the police, the same action you'd do from the get-go if you have eevn a sliver or escape.

it is your responsibility to flee.  When you cannot flee, you fire until the threat is no longer a threat.

good post.

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Re: Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Redneck?
« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2009, 10:05:29 AM »
good post.

I agree with TA that shooting the dude is last resort.  I would scream 'back the fuck up' my biggest cop voice.  I've broken up several fights just by shouting "breka that shit up", or my favorite, "Sheriff's Dept".  People fistfighting turn white and freeze when they hear "sherrifs dept".

granted, i justify it (should anyone ever call me on it) by saying i was simply informing the gentlemen fighting that the sherrifs would be here shortly.  But in every fight I've used it, the 2 stop and the bouncer gets his chance to break it up.

avoidance: get on the other side of the street.
negotiation: tell bad gut to back the F up.
contact.  shoot the prick.