127% MORE MUSCLE!!

[The Master]

This is Duck: You are such a boring mongoloid that I have to do SOMETHING to let time pass. Your drooling tickles when it flows down my boobs and this is the only time you can make me laugh.

If you don't behave Debussey I won't fuck you for a week

Shut your mouth you dumb fat bitch.

What? Put that S&M outfit AWAY! Don't put it on for christ sakes. The whipmarks from last time = still present on Debussey's ass!

NO! DOn't.! Do.! It!

[wavelength]

I don't see how wave can cut his calories that low and function normally let alone lift with any intensity. Duck mentions doing HIT cardio to the point of throwing up, um..no thanks. Why not pop an ECA and do target heart rate cardio?

Never took any fat burners. Plus E is illegal where I live AFAIK. Doesn't sound too healthy either.

Right now I am trying keto with slow cardio, this just happens to be the wedding season as well BBQ and weekend drinking time. So it goes without saying that I am not having much success.

Keto didn't work for me. No energy in the gym.

[wavelength]

Both are extemists. Wavelength is extremely lazy and Duck is manically obsessive/hardcore. Both are to be admired because both have great, ripped physiques...

I'm also "hardcore" but only where it is necessary = in the gym.

[wavelength]

Cardio has been shown to increase metabolic rest rate, increasing effectiveness during a cut, Ill  dig up some studies and articles when I have the time.
The health benefits of cardio are so valuable that I would advise no cut without cardio. Now the lower you get in BF the lower your calory intake will have to be to avoid having to do catabolic amounts of cardio.

Cardio>eating less

Would be interested in studies on body composition. I don't know any which eliminate all other factors.

[Method101]

I'm also "hardcore" but only where it is necessary = in the gym.

thats why it took you 4 years to bench 225?

[DK II]

Would be interested in studies on body composition. I don't know any which eliminate all other factors.

http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/HIITvsET.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8028502

And, too lazy to look them up now...

1. Bahr, R., and O.M. Sejersted. Effect of intensity of exercise on excess postexercise O2 consumption. Metabolism. 40:836-841, 1991.
2. Ballor, D.L., J.P. McCarthy, and E.J. Wilterdink. Exercise intensity does not affect the composition of diet- and exercise-induced body mass loss. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 51:142-146, 1990.
3. Bryner, R.W., R.C. Toffle, I.H. Ullrish, and R.A. Yeater. The effects of exercise intensity on body composition, weight loss, and dietary composition in women. J. Am. Col. Nutr. 16:68-73, 1997.
4. Burleson, Jr, M.A., H.S. O'Bryant, M.H. Stone, M.A. Collins, and T. Triplett-McBride. Effect of weight training exercise and treadmill exercise on post-exercise oxygen consumption. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 30:518-522, 1998.
5. Coyle, E.H. Fat Metabolism During Exercise. [Online] Gatorade Sports Science Institute. 6. Dickson-Parnell, B.E., and A. Zeichner. Effects of a short-term exercise program on caloric consumption. Health Psychol. 4:437-448, 1985.
7. Gaesser, G.A., and R.G. Rich. Effects of high- and low-intensity exercise training on aerobic capacity and blood lipids. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 16:269-274, 1984.
8. Gillette, C.A., R.C. Bullough, and C.L. Melby. Postexercise energy expenditure in response to acute aerobic or resistive exercise. Int. J. Sports Nutr. 4:347-360, 1994.
9. Grediagin, M.A., M. Cody, J. Rupp, D. Benardot, and R. Shern. Exercise intensity does not effect body composition change in untrained, moderately overfat women. J. Am. Diet Assoc. 95:661-665, 1995.
10. Grubbs, L. The critical role of exercise in weight control. Nurse Pract. 18(4):20,22,25-26,29, 1993.
11. Hickson, R.C., W.W. Heusner, W.D. Van Huss, D.E. Jackson, D.A. Anderson, D.A. Jones, and A.T. Psaledas. Effects of Dianabol and high-intensity sprint training on body composition of rats. Med. Sci. Sports. 8:191-195, 1976.
12. Imbeault, P., S. Saint-Pierre, N. Alméras, and A. Tremblay. Acute effects of exercise on energy intake and feeding behaviour. Br. J. Nutr. 77:511-521, 1997.
13. Katch, F.I., R. Martin, and J. Martin. Effects of exercise intensity on food consumption in the male rat. Am J. Clin. Nutr. 32:1401-1407, 1979.
14. Laforgia, J. R.T. Withers, N.J. Shipp, and C.J. Gore. Comparison of energy expenditure elevations after submaximal and supramaximal running. J. Appl. Physiol. 82:661-666, 1997.
15. Mahler, D.A., V.F. Froelicher, N.H. Miller, and T.D. York. ACSM's Guidelines for Exercise Testing and Prescription, edited by W.L. Kenney, R.H. Humphrey, and C.X. Bryant. Media, PA: Williams and Wilkins, 1995, chapt. 10, p. 218-219.
16. McMillan, J.L., M.H. Stone, J. Sartin, R. Keith, D. Marple, Lt. C. Brown, and R.D. Lewis. 20-hour physiological responses to a single weight-training session. J. Strength Cond. Res. 7(3):9-21, 1993.
17. Melby, C., C. Scholl, G. Edwards, and R. Bullough. Effect of acute resistance exercise on postexercise energy expenditure and resting metabolic rate. J. Appl. Physiol. 75:1847-1853, 1993.
18. Pacheco-Sanchez, M., and K.K Grunewald. Body fat deposition: effects of dietary fat and two exercise protocols. J. Am. Col. Nutr. 13:601-607, 1994.
19. Phelain, J.F., E. Reinke, M.A. Harris, and C.L. Melby. Postexercise energy expenditure and substrate oxidation in young women resulting from exercise bouts of different intensity. J. Am. Col. Nutr. 16:140-146, 1997.
20. Rasmussen, B.B., and W.W. Winder. Effect of exercise intensity on skeletal muscle malonyl-CoA and acetyl-CoA carboxylase. J. Appl. Physiol. 83:1104-1109, 1997.
21. Smith, J., and L. McNaughton. The effects of intensity of exercise on excess postexercise oxygen consumption and energy expenditure in moderately trained men and women. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 67:420-425, 1993.
22. Thompson, D.A., L.A. Wolfe, and R. Eikelboom. Acute effects of exercise intensity on appetite in young men. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 20:222-227, 1988.
23. Tremblay, A., J. Simoneau, and C. Bouchard. Impact of exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism. Metabolism. 43:814-818, 1994.
24. Tremblay, A., J. Després, C. Leblanc, C.L. Craig, B. Ferris, T. Stephens, and C. Bouchard. Effect of intensity of physical activity on body fatness and fat distribution. Am J. Clin. Nutr. 51:153-157, 1990.
25. Treuth, M.S., G.R. Hunter, and M. Williams. Effects of exercise intensity on 24-h energy expenditure and substrate oxidation. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 28:1138-1143, 1996.

[wavelength]

thats why it took you 4 years to bench 225?

Did I say that? You remember more than me.

In any case, I started out benching 88lbs. I was a 125lb weakling when I was 18.
Many factors contribute to one's strength at a certain point in time.

[wavelength]

http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/HIITvsET.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8028502

And, too lazy to look them up now...

1. Bahr, R., and O.M. Sejersted. Effect of intensity of exercise on excess postexercise O2 consumption. Metabolism. 40:836-841, 1991.
2. Ballor, D.L., J.P. McCarthy, and E.J. Wilterdink. Exercise intensity does not affect the composition of diet- and exercise-induced body mass loss. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 51:142-146, 1990.
3. Bryner, R.W., R.C. Toffle, I.H. Ullrish, and R.A. Yeater. The effects of exercise intensity on body composition, weight loss, and dietary composition in women. J. Am. Col. Nutr. 16:68-73, 1997.
4. Burleson, Jr, M.A., H.S. O'Bryant, M.H. Stone, M.A. Collins, and T. Triplett-McBride. Effect of weight training exercise and treadmill exercise on post-exercise oxygen consumption. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 30:518-522, 1998.
5. Coyle, E.H. Fat Metabolism During Exercise. [Online] Gatorade Sports Science Institute. 6. Dickson-Parnell, B.E., and A. Zeichner. Effects of a short-term exercise program on caloric consumption. Health Psychol. 4:437-448, 1985.
7. Gaesser, G.A., and R.G. Rich. Effects of high- and low-intensity exercise training on aerobic capacity and blood lipids. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 16:269-274, 1984.
8. Gillette, C.A., R.C. Bullough, and C.L. Melby. Postexercise energy expenditure in response to acute aerobic or resistive exercise. Int. J. Sports Nutr. 4:347-360, 1994.
9. Grediagin, M.A., M. Cody, J. Rupp, D. Benardot, and R. Shern. Exercise intensity does not effect body composition change in untrained, moderately overfat women. J. Am. Diet Assoc. 95:661-665, 1995.
10. Grubbs, L. The critical role of exercise in weight control. Nurse Pract. 18(4):20,22,25-26,29, 1993.
11. Hickson, R.C., W.W. Heusner, W.D. Van Huss, D.E. Jackson, D.A. Anderson, D.A. Jones, and A.T. Psaledas. Effects of Dianabol and high-intensity sprint training on body composition of rats. Med. Sci. Sports. 8:191-195, 1976.
12. Imbeault, P., S. Saint-Pierre, N. Alméras, and A. Tremblay. Acute effects of exercise on energy intake and feeding behaviour. Br. J. Nutr. 77:511-521, 1997.
13. Katch, F.I., R. Martin, and J. Martin. Effects of exercise intensity on food consumption in the male rat. Am J. Clin. Nutr. 32:1401-1407, 1979.
14. Laforgia, J. R.T. Withers, N.J. Shipp, and C.J. Gore. Comparison of energy expenditure elevations after submaximal and supramaximal running. J. Appl. Physiol. 82:661-666, 1997.
15. Mahler, D.A., V.F. Froelicher, N.H. Miller, and T.D. York. ACSM's Guidelines for Exercise Testing and Prescription, edited by W.L. Kenney, R.H. Humphrey, and C.X. Bryant. Media, PA: Williams and Wilkins, 1995, chapt. 10, p. 218-219.
16. McMillan, J.L., M.H. Stone, J. Sartin, R. Keith, D. Marple, Lt. C. Brown, and R.D. Lewis. 20-hour physiological responses to a single weight-training session. J. Strength Cond. Res. 7(3):9-21, 1993.
17. Melby, C., C. Scholl, G. Edwards, and R. Bullough. Effect of acute resistance exercise on postexercise energy expenditure and resting metabolic rate. J. Appl. Physiol. 75:1847-1853, 1993.
18. Pacheco-Sanchez, M., and K.K Grunewald. Body fat deposition: effects of dietary fat and two exercise protocols. J. Am. Col. Nutr. 13:601-607, 1994.
19. Phelain, J.F., E. Reinke, M.A. Harris, and C.L. Melby. Postexercise energy expenditure and substrate oxidation in young women resulting from exercise bouts of different intensity. J. Am. Col. Nutr. 16:140-146, 1997.
20. Rasmussen, B.B., and W.W. Winder. Effect of exercise intensity on skeletal muscle malonyl-CoA and acetyl-CoA carboxylase. J. Appl. Physiol. 83:1104-1109, 1997.
21. Smith, J., and L. McNaughton. The effects of intensity of exercise on excess postexercise oxygen consumption and energy expenditure in moderately trained men and women. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 67:420-425, 1993.
22. Thompson, D.A., L.A. Wolfe, and R. Eikelboom. Acute effects of exercise intensity on appetite in young men. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 20:222-227, 1988.
23. Tremblay, A., J. Simoneau, and C. Bouchard. Impact of exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism. Metabolism. 43:814-818, 1994.
24. Tremblay, A., J. Després, C. Leblanc, C.L. Craig, B. Ferris, T. Stephens, and C. Bouchard. Effect of intensity of physical activity on body fatness and fat distribution. Am J. Clin. Nutr. 51:153-157, 1990.
25. Treuth, M.S., G.R. Hunter, and M. Williams. Effects of exercise intensity on 24-h energy expenditure and substrate oxidation. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 28:1138-1143, 1996.

Thanks, question is which ones (if any) fit the description. I'm pretty sure I know a few of them, gotta check.

[DK II]

Did I say that? You remember more than me.

In any case, I started out benching 88lbs. I was a 125lb weakling when I was 18.
Many factors contribute to one's strength at a certain point in time.

Well, i don't think there are many guys that bench 225 on the first day in the gym.

Thanks, question is which ones (if any) fit the description. I'm pretty sure I know a few of them, gotta check.

the first two links fit what you wanted i think.

[DK II]

Acoording to scientific studies, 30 minutes of moderate cardio done at least 3 times a week is just as effective at reducing depression as the antidepressant Zoloft, without all the side effects.

I would believe that. I could definitly make out a difference when i started cardio. Along with the weight training and improved strength, if you have cardiovascular fitness, everyday life challenges are like relaxing all the time.

For me, i feel like a kid lately. Kids tend to run all the time, have you ever realized that? They don't walk, when they want to go smoewhere, they run. For me, after doing cardio, it has become the same. At least when i am alone, when i want to go somewhere, i run or jog there. It feels natural, is faster and the small runs don't bother me at all.

[wavelength]

the first two links fit what you wanted i think.

At first glance, both studies seem to compare a certain low intensity with a certain high intensity cardio protocol regarding total fat loss. That's not the same as a study on body composition comparing two methods where in both cases, total calories are adjusted to establish the same rate of weight loss.

As I said in another thread, if I would do cardio, I would probably do HIIT since it seems to provide good results in a short period of time. Cardio works for fat loss, no doubt. The question is just if it works better (for body composition) than caloric restriction on the same rate of weight loss.

I also fully agree to all the other potential benefits of any type of cardio. There is really no reason not to do cardio (other than a time issue) if any of those benefits are experienced.

[Red Hook]

I wonder if a couple pick up games of basketball would fall into the category of HIT. 

It is stop and go movement, burst of speed followed by stop/slowing.  I asked because I tried playing basketball for the first time in 5 years and I nearly died of a heart attacked. Yet, I can do 45 minute of target rate cardio every day like a champion 

[DK II]

I wonder if a couple pick up games of basketball would fall into the category of HIT. 

It is stop and go movement, burst of speed followed by stop/slowing.  I asked because I tried playing basketball for the first time in 5 years and I nearly died of a heart attacked. Yet, I can do 45 minute of target rate cardio every day like a champion 

Probably, why not.

This kind of "cardio" is always the best, if you have fun playing Basketball, why go onto the threadmill? If you like running more than basketball, don't do it.

[wavelength]

At first glance, both studies seem to compare a certain low intensity with a certain high intensity cardio protocol regarding total fat loss. That's not the same as a study on body composition comparing two methods where in both cases, total calories are adjusted to establish the same rate of weight loss.

As I said in another thread, if I would do cardio, I would probably do HIIT since it seems to provide good results in a short period of time. Cardio works for fat loss, no doubt. The question is just if it works better (for body composition) than caloric restriction on the same rate of weight loss.

I also fully agree to all the other potential benefits of any type of cardio. There is really no reason not to do cardio (other than a time issue) if any of those benefits are experienced.

eben

[Necrosis]

cardio causes a wide range of benefits that exist after the cardio is done that influence body composition.

[Deicide]

cardio causes a wide range of benefits that exist after the cardio is done that influence body composition.

irrelevant for body composition

wavelength approved

[wavelength]

cardio causes a wide range of benefits that exist after the cardio is done that influence body composition.

Yes but do those benefits yield better results than just reducing calories? Chris Aceto recently posted his critique on cardio here:

"possibly...there's always the right diet which can get you there with almost no cardio"

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=115850501

[Deicide]

Yes but do those benefits yield better results than just reducing calories? Chris Aceto recently posted his critique on cardio here:

"possibly...there's always the right diet which can get you there with almost no cardio"

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=115850501

The Schnitzelman owning again!