Judging

[Dos Equis]

What does this mean?  My view has always been that you don't make assumptions about conduct that you're not certain about, and you don't tell someone what their ultimate destiny will be (i.e., you're going to heaven or hell). 

What I don't believe is that it precludes someone from calling sin . . . sin. 

Any other opinions? 

[Montague]

Everyone will define the term slightly differently.
Three observations I’ve made:

1.) Judgmental people are often also some of the biggest hypocrites. The two are almost directly proportional.
2.) Never hold people to your own morals & standards. Few – if any – can live up to them.
3.) Accept people as they are. Even the best people are not perfect, will not fit your perfect mold, and you will never change them. Identify the best and worst qualities in the people in your life and act accordingly.

[Dos Equis]

Everyone will define the term slightly differently.
Three observations I’ve made:

1.) Judgmental people are often also some of the biggest hypocrites. The two are almost directly proportional.
2.) Never hold people to your own morals & standards. Few – if any – can live up to them.
3.) Accept people as they are. Even the best people are not perfect, will not fit your perfect mold, and you will never change them. Identify the best and worst qualities in the people in your life and act accordingly.

Good points and I pretty much agree. 

Regarding your no. 2, what happens when your own morals & standards are pretty universal? 

Also, does accepting people as they are include condoning their behavior?  That's where I think the "judging" issue most often comes into play. 

[Montague]

Also, does accepting people as they are include condoning their behavior?

No.
I think it's simply being realistic.

Regarding your no. 2, what happens when your own morals & standards are pretty universal?

I don’t think there is a “universal.”
There is such a wide range of what people consider benchmark ideals. It’s all left to individual interpretation.

Sure, a segment of the population may agree on some, but it will never be enough people to comprise a "universal."

[Dos Equis]

No.
I think it's simply being realistic.

I don’t think there is a “universal.”
There is such a wide range of what people consider benchmark ideals. It’s all left to individual interpretation.

Sure, a segment of the population may agree on some, but it will never be enough people to comprise a "universal."

I've heard that from a number of people and I always disagree.  There are plenty of things that are universally immoral:  abusing children, rape, murder, etc. 

[Montague]

You’re right.
For some reason, I was limiting my scope to what might be considered somewhat “lesser” issues like lying, working on the Sabbath, adultery, etc.

I have strong feelings about many of those types of things, but I’ve learned I can’t ostracize people from my life because of them.
If I did, I’d have no friends.

Besides, I’ll be the first to admit I’m not “without fault.”
I’m far from perfect, as I believe most people are.

And yes, abusing children, rape, murder, etc. could only be deemed acceptable behavior by someone sick in the head.
I would not overlook things of that nature, and I certainly would not condone them.

Excellent points.

[Dos Equis]

You’re right.
For some reason, I was limiting my scope to what might be considered somewhat “lesser” issues like lying, working on the Sabbath, adultery, etc.

I have strong feelings about many of those types of things, but I’ve learned I can’t ostracize people from my life because of them.
If I did, I’d have no friends.

Besides, I’ll be the first to admit I’m not “without fault.”
I’m far from perfect, as I believe most people are.

And yes, abusing children, rape, murder, etc. could only be deemed acceptable behavior by someone sick in the head.
I would not overlook things of that nature, and I certainly would not condone them.

Excellent points.

Thanks.  Do you ever talk to friends about "bad" conduct and do you consider that "judging"? 

[Montague]

I only offer  “solicited” opinion – meaning if they ask, I’ll tell.
They can call that whatever they want, but in the end, they wanted my opinion and I gave it to them.

How’s the song go?
“Don’t ask me what I think of you; I might not give the answers that you want me to…”

Case in point:
An old buddy of mine was single, had a live-in gf, and had a short-lived fling with a married woman.
His first Q – He explained the scenario as if it were hypothetical and then asked if I thought God considered that a sin (after all, he wasn’t married).
His next Q was along the lines of would I have fiddled with her.
Finally, in a shocking turn of events he revealed the fact that he himself had done the dirty deed and asked what I thought.

I didn’t chastise him and start quoting scripture. I simply told him it’s not something I would have done. He asked why, and I explained that, too.
He told me he respected that and me, and then went on to say that he wished he could be more like me in that regard. That actually caught me out.

My buddy wasn’t an evil guy. He didn’t do what he did to be a jerk. From our conversation, I’m not even entirely convinced that he was sure if what he’d done was bad, or at least how bad. And he didn’t go about doing this sort of thing all the time.

It all goes back to my axioms…
Nobody is perfect (including me) and it’s unreasonable to hold people to my own standards.
I have to accept people as they are. I can’t change them, but I can become aware of what kind of person they are and decide if I want them around me and my family.

Yes, that’s judging, but not the preachy kind where I follow people with a bible and point out all the shit they do wrong and tell them they will burn.
I think a lot of times - when it comes up - you get better results my way.

Sometimes, when people are sincere enough to open up and ask for advice about a matter like the one above, criticism, verbal attacks, and shuns may turn them off to the idea of seeking advice on those types of matters from people they do feel are somewhat qualified to give it in the future.

[Butterbean]

What does this mean?  My view has always been that you don't make assumptions about conduct that you're not certain about, and you don't tell someone what their ultimate destiny will be (i.e., you're going to heaven or hell). 

What I don't believe is that it precludes someone from calling sin . . . sin. 

Any other opinions? 

If you are talking about Matthew 7:1

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged"

I think if we continue to Matthew 7:2 it helps

"or in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."


To me it is saying don't be hypocritical...chastizin g people for doing something that you yourself engage in.

For instance if Montague's friend is having an adulterous affair, Montague shouldn't judge his friend if Montague is having an affair himself.






Montague I agree w/your approach to your friend that told you of his affair.  It's not like spouting "Thou shalt not commit adultery!" is going to to help in many cases..but to describe the destruction and pain that can result from adultery can help the person to see how they are hurting others and themselves.

Nobody is perfect (including me) and it’s unreasonable to hold people to my own standards.

Agree...even though my standards are pretty low

I have to accept people as they are. I can’t change them, but I can become aware of what kind of person they are and decide if I want them around me and my family.

Yes, that’s judging,

I don't know if that would be considered "judging" or just being discerning and making wise choices.  We have a family member that stole from us among other things.  It is our choice not to have that person in our lives for our own protection.

[Deicide]

If you are talking about Matthew 7:1

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged"

I think if we continue to Matthew 7:2 it helps

"or in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."


To me it is saying don't be hypocritical...chastizin g people for doing something that you yourself engage in.

For instance if Montague's friend is having an adulterous affair, Montague shouldn't judge his friend if Montague is having an affair himself.






Montague I agree w/your approach to your friend that told you of his affair.  It's not like spouting "Thou shalt not commit adultery!" is going to to help in many cases..but to describe the destruction and pain that can result from adultery can help the person to see how they are hurting others and themselves.


Agree...even though my standards are pretty low

I don't know if that would be considered "judging" or just being discerning and making wise choices.  We have a family member that stole from us among other things.  It is our choice not to have that person in our lives for our own protection.

It's funny, I have that in the orginal Greek tattooed across my chest.

[Butterbean]

It's funny, I have that in the orginal Greek tattooed across my chest.

Interesting!  Do you have the scripture reference too or just the text?

[Deicide]

Interesting!  Do you have the scripture reference too or just the text?

Do you mean Matthew 7:1? No, just the text. It's a pretty good saying.

[Butterbean]

Do you mean Matthew 7:1? No, just the text. It's a pretty good saying.

agree.

[Deicide]

agree.

Every now and then the Bible has some decent things in it.

[Butterbean]

Every now and then the Bible has some decent things in it.

Yeah!

[Deicide]

Yeah!

Most literature does. You pick and choose the good stuff and get rid of the rest.

[Montague]

Montague I agree w/your approach to your friend that told you of his affair. 

Thank you.
It’s truly a rarity when someone asks for this kind of feedback, because usually, he/she more than half expects it to not be good.

Even fewer people want to have scripture shoved up their @$$es.
Nobody likes to be preached to when it concerns things they’ve done wrong.

The thing about the “big two” western religions (Judaism & Christianity) is that they spout some pretty good ideas as to how you should act. And these ideas are good for any person of any faith. Don’t lie, don’t steal, don’t kill, etc…those are guidelines that any person of any faith would follow if they are genuinely good people.

I have three atheist friends who basically live by the 10 Commandments – not because they’re God fearing or for any other religious connection – they do it because they’re good people doing good things.

[Dos Equis]

I only offer  “solicited” opinion – meaning if they ask, I’ll tell.
They can call that whatever they want, but in the end, they wanted my opinion and I gave it to them.

How’s the song go?
“Don’t ask me what I think of you; I might not give the answers that you want me to…”

Case in point:
An old buddy of mine was single, had a live-in gf, and had a short-lived fling with a married woman.
His first Q – He explained the scenario as if it were hypothetical and then asked if I thought God considered that a sin (after all, he wasn’t married).
His next Q was along the lines of would I have fiddled with her.
Finally, in a shocking turn of events he revealed the fact that he himself had done the dirty deed and asked what I thought.

I didn’t chastise him and start quoting scripture. I simply told him it’s not something I would have done. He asked why, and I explained that, too.
He told me he respected that and me, and then went on to say that he wished he could be more like me in that regard. That actually caught me out.

My buddy wasn’t an evil guy. He didn’t do what he did to be a jerk. From our conversation, I’m not even entirely convinced that he was sure if what he’d done was bad, or at least how bad. And he didn’t go about doing this sort of thing all the time.

It all goes back to my axioms…
Nobody is perfect (including me) and it’s unreasonable to hold people to my own standards.
I have to accept people as they are. I can’t change them, but I can become aware of what kind of person they are and decide if I want them around me and my family.

Yes, that’s judging, but not the preachy kind where I follow people with a bible and point out all the shit they do wrong and tell them they will burn.
I think a lot of times - when it comes up - you get better results my way.

Sometimes, when people are sincere enough to open up and ask for advice about a matter like the one above, criticism, verbal attacks, and shuns may turn them off to the idea of seeking advice on those types of matters from people they do feel are somewhat qualified to give it in the future.

Well said.  I think you did the right; took the right approach.  I'm pretty much the same way:  don't offer an opinion unless asked.  But don't ask unless you want an earful.   

I don't walk around quoting scripture, but one verse I always share with any guy who is thinking about cheating or already doing the deed, and talks to me about it, is Proverbs 6:27-29 and 32-33.  If you creep it will bite you, sooner or later.  We see it all the time with public figures.   

[Dos Equis]

If you are talking about Matthew 7:1

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged"

I think if we continue to Matthew 7:2 it helps

"or in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."


To me it is saying don't be hypocritical...chastizin g people for doing something that you yourself engage in.

For instance if Montague's friend is having an adulterous affair, Montague shouldn't judge his friend if Montague is having an affair himself.

Thanks.  That's the verse I thinking about.  I agree with you.   

[Migs]

it's good to judge it can be a survival mechanism