Cap & Trade hypothetical...

[240 is Back]

If you could go back in time and order Americans to suffer through ten years of recession from 1950 to 1960...

...and the result would be a USA that was completely independent of Middle Eastern Oil

...and there would never have been a 9/11

...and there would never have been a Gulf War I

...and gas prices wouldn't be an issue, as we'd all have solar powered cars that charged all day long

...and we wouldn't need such a strong military today

...and our dollar would be much stronger

...and we wouldn't be borrowing billions each day from china


If you could put Americans through ten years of imposed govt BS in order to spurn innovation and steer American away from the oil scene from 1950 to 1960, would you do it?

[Kazan]

If you could go back in time and order Americans to suffer through ten years of recession from 1950 to 1960...

...and the result would be a USA that was completely independent of Middle Eastern Oil

...and there would never have been a 9/11

...and there would never have been a Gulf War I

...and gas prices wouldn't be an issue, as we'd all have solar powered cars that charged all day long

...and we wouldn't need such a strong military today

...and our dollar would be much stronger

...and we wouldn't be borrowing billions each day from china


If you could put Americans through ten years of imposed govt BS in order to spurn innovation and steer American away from the oil scene from 1950 to 1960, would you do it?

I would have to say no, because once the government "imposes" something it never gives control back to the people.

Plus there is no guarantee that any of the things listed above still wouldn't happen.

[240 is Back]

Plus there is no guarantee that any of the things listed above still wouldn't happen.

let's pretend there was.

My point is that many of us sacrifice early to enjoy the benefits later.  We work hard, some go to school.  We pay our dues to reap the benefits later.

Many people WOULD let the place suffer 60 years ago if it meant a better place today.  Many of us would deal with 5 years of BS if it meant an improved quality of life for the next 50 or 60. 

Just another way to look at it.  I've paid more attention to the "crap and trade" talk, and I like the part about encouraging US ingenuity and getting the heck away from an energy source dependent upon foreign arab nations accepting our dollar.

[Kazan]

let's pretend there was.

My point is that many of us sacrifice early to enjoy the benefits later.  We work hard, some go to school.  We pay our dues to reap the benefits later.

Many people WOULD let the place suffer 60 years ago if it meant a better place today.  Many of us would deal with 5 years of BS if it meant an improved quality of life for the next 50 or 60. 

Just another way to look at it.  I've paid more attention to the "crap and trade" talk, and I like the part about encouraging US ingenuity and getting the heck away from an energy source dependent upon foreign arab nations accepting our dollar.

Ok I'll play if that is the case and government wasn't going to keep control of thing sure.


Energy source independance is in the eye of the beholder, we could have done many things over the years to accomplish this for the most part. The problem is the same left wingers that are promoting this cap and trade crap are the same ones who have been stopping us at every turn in past years.

[240 is Back]

Energy source independance is in the eye of the beholder, we could have done many things over the years to accomplish this for the most part. The problem is the same left wingers that are promoting this cap and trade crap are the same ones who have been stopping us at every turn in past years.

Libs/clinton screwed up bigtime by not drilling in 93. 

We would have been pulling out/back of mid-east oil by 2001... would 15 saudis have pulled 911?  Would the wars have happened?

In 2008, repubs demonized clinton for not taking that big sacrifice in 1993.  Even if it took a full 10 years, it would have made life better in the USA for the next decade and beyond.  instead, he let greenpeace libs protect baby seals instead of drilling.

The one thing I see with this cap/trade thing... obama's taking the major hit for energy advancement that clinton and bush did not.

[Kazan]

Libs/clinton screwed up bigtime by not drilling in 93. 

We would have been pulling out/back of mid-east oil by 2001... would 15 saudis have pulled 911?  Would the wars have happened?

In 2008, repubs demonized clinton for not taking that big sacrifice in 1993.  Even if it took a full 10 years, it would have made life better in the USA for the next decade and beyond.  instead, he let greenpeace libs protect baby seals instead of drilling.

The one thing I see with this cap/trade thing... obama's taking the major hit for energy advancement that clinton and bush did not.

Thats the problem special interest groups seem to have way to much sway over decisions that affect America as a whole.

Who knows if the 15 Saudi's would have been involved in 9/11 - the Wahbi brand of Islam that is preached through out Saudi Arabia makes me think yes.

I don't see this as the POTUS taking a hit, I see it as a power grab. Some of the crap in this bill is at best unconstitutional and at worst criminal. The government will have the power to tell you can't sell your house if it doesn't meet their energy standards? What the fuck is that. You are going to see a few get filthy rich over this BS and the rest of us left to sit there and suck it.

[240 is Back]

The government will have the power to tell you can't sell your house if it doesn't meet their energy standards? What the fuck is that. You are going to see a few get filthy rich over this BS and the rest of us left to sit there and suck it.

You make a good point.

At the same time, this prevents a HUGE real estate sell-off right now in a shitty market.

I wouldn't vote for the bill.  I'm just taking a 'pro' role for the sake of debate here.  The bill is very controlling.  But if a few years of crap secures our future energy needs, isn't it worth it?

[Hereford]

You make a good point.

At the same time, this prevents a HUGE real estate sell-off right now in a shitty market.

I wouldn't vote for the bill.  I'm just taking a 'pro' role for the sake of debate here.  The bill is very controlling.  But if a few years of crap secures our future energy needs, isn't it worth it?

The only reason a huge real estate sell off is supposedly so bad is because it leads to lower values, which leads to the government getting a lot less in property taxes. Really. The govt couldn't give a shit less if you have a house or not... it just wants to be sure you don't fire-sale it or get foreclosed on because then there is a lot less property tax $$$ coming in.

[240 is Back]

nobody else will take a position on this hypothetical?  333386?

[Kazan]

You make a good point.

At the same time, this prevents a HUGE real estate sell-off right now in a shitty market.

I wouldn't vote for the bill.  I'm just taking a 'pro' role for the sake of debate here.  The bill is very controlling.  But if a few years of crap secures our future energy needs, isn't it worth it?

This is where you and I differ in opinion, I don't believe that once the government gets control of something it ever releases it. So to say a few years IMHO is an imposibility.

[Soul Crusher]

240 - Did you read my two articles this morning about this insanity??

[Soul Crusher]

nobody else will take a position on this hypothetical?  333386?

no, I am against this because you are giving the govt too many powers over hypothetical results. 

The question is not a fair one since the answers cannot be known before giving the govt all these powers.  What if it failed?  Than what?   

[shootfighter1]

Agreed, we must limit the power of the government.  Reducing our dependence on middle eastern oil is paramount (although we get most of our oil from other sources)...still, alternative energy persuits are logical.
I think the government could give incentives and tax rebates for companies that persue alternative energies but to punish American business and all American consumers for using the existing technology during a recession is indefensable in my opinion.

[240 is Back]

If you asked our grandkids if we could go thru some BS from 2009 til 2015, so that they wouldn't have to fight in wars for oil...

I wonder how they'd answer?

[Soul Crusher]

If you asked our grandkids if we could go thru some BS from 2009 til 2015, so that they wouldn't have to fight in wars for oil...

I wonder how they'd answer?

Again, its a false question based on speculative results. 

[240 is Back]

Again, its a false question based on speculative results. 

agreed.

But this thread is called "Cap & Trade hypothetical..."

If you only indulge in discussions with outcomes we know to be 100% certainty, that's not a lot of chat here.

[Soul Crusher]

agreed.

But this thread is called "Cap & Trade hypothetical..."

If you only indulge in discussions with outcomes we know to be 100% certainty, that's not a lot of chat here.

The answer is no. 

[tonymctones]

you really simplify the situation 240...If we knew the outcome of that to be certain then i think most would.

However its a silly hypothetical and a horrible pro arguement for this legislation...the hypothetical pros dont outweight the real cons...

[Deicide]

you really simplify the situation 240...If we knew the outcome of that to be certain then i think most would.

However its a silly hypothetical and a horrible pro arguement for this legislation...the hypothetical pros dont outweight the real cons...

[240 is Back]

you really simplify the situation 240...If we knew the outcome of that to be certain then i think most would.

However its a silly hypothetical and a horrible pro arguement for this legislation...the hypothetical pros dont outweight the real cons...

you may be right.  i'd vote against it.  Just looking at angles in which we could benefit.  cause I'm pretty darn sure obama will talk the senate into voting it in.

[BM OUT]

let's pretend there was.

My point is that many of us sacrifice early to enjoy the benefits later.  We work hard, some go to school.  We pay our dues to reap the benefits later.

Many people WOULD let the place suffer 60 years ago if it meant a better place today.  Many of us would deal with 5 years of BS if it meant an improved quality of life for the next 50 or 60. 

Just another way to look at it.  I've paid more attention to the "crap and trade" talk, and I like the part about encouraging US ingenuity and getting the heck away from an energy source dependent upon foreign arab nations accepting our dollar.

You want to get away from being dependant on foreign oil?DRILL HERE!!!Build NUKES!!!!We have enough resources here to never need another drop of oil from anywhere else.Why cant we do  it?Left wing lib idiots are held captive by enviro kooks that dont give a flying fuck about the country or people,they are worried about bugs and birds.

Now,how is giving the government the right to dictate when we can sell a house going to help our dependancy on foreign oil?How is adopting Californias nutty standards nationwide helping America?This bill is insanity!!!Its designed to destroy our country by people who hate our country.

[240 is Back]

You want to get away from being dependant on foreign oil?DRILL HERE!!!Build NUKES!!!!

Obama believes that other sources - solar, wind, or something we haven't thought of yet - have the potential to be lower-cost, longer-term.  Nuclear energy is expensive, and domestic drilling is only a short-term solution. 

What if people do use this as motivation to put their resources into finding some new energy?  imagine researchers from all over the world coming TO the USA to share their idea (and get rich)

imagine if Obama is the president when some new form of energy comes into play.  he'd be lauded by history as the guy who replaced oil, moved civilization to a new level. 

[Soul Crusher]

Obama believes that other sources - solar, wind, or something we haven't thought of yet - have the potential to be lower-cost, longer-term.  Nuclear energy is expensive, and domestic drilling is only a short-term solution. 

What if people do use this as motivation to put their resources into finding some new energy?  imagine researchers from all over the world coming TO the USA to share their idea (and get rich)

imagine if Obama is the president when some new form of energy comes into play.  he'd be lauded by history as the guy who replaced oil, moved civilization to a new level. 

Who the Muthafuk is obama to believe anything???  Tell me 240 - what in Obama's personal experience makes him qualified to make that judgment and impose it on our nation?

[tonymctones]

hahah you really go in for all that lore type animation dont you?

[tonymctones]

you may be right.  i'd vote against it.  Just looking at angles in which we could benefit.  cause I'm pretty darn sure obama will talk the senate into voting it in.

I certainly hope not, like I said im all for getting off our dependency or at least cutting back on dependencey on foreign oil but now is not the time to be passing legislation that will raises taxes and prices on ppl its just insane to even contemplate right now.