Author Topic: Straw Man  (Read 13274 times)

James

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #100 on: August 05, 2009, 12:53:18 PM »
Quote
Medicare is not almost broke.  Medicaid is not broke.  And Social Security is not broke.

Other than that, your arguments are dead on.

As for the Post office, it lost money and so did all its private competitors.  We're in a depression/recession.  Everybody is losing money.

Government is an efficient bogeyman for you.  It replaces any qualitative thought on your part.  I mean why analyze the complexity of any phenomenon?  You can just point to government and say, "baaaaaaaaaaaaad.'

Apparently your world breaks down to 'Gov. bad', 'privatization' gooooood'.

That's why people like you buy into the bullshit pushed by hucksters like Pete Schiff and Ron Paul.

Your admiration for their oversimplified elitest messages borders on unquestioning religious adoration.

That's why libertarianism is a young man's philosophy.  It's full of short sighted pablum that's easy to understand.  It exploits egoism as a profound truth.  Everyman for himself.  If there's a problem, then there's government for you.  Libertarianism makes the practitioner feel good - he thinks he can understand the overwhelming complexities of government and economy with only a few simple rules.

I believe that simpleton George Whorewell said it best, "libertarianism is the way to go."

Facts:

Medicare Will Go Broke By 2018

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/01/AR2006050101448.html

New Trustees Report Says Medicare Going Broke Slightly Faster than Expected

http://seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Medicare/2008/8-03-26-NewTrusteesReport.htm


Medicaid: It's Broken
http://www.massmed.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=MMS_Forum26&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&CONTENTID=8108

Why Social Security Is Going Broke:
http://www.mymoneyblog.com/archives/2009/07/why-social-security-is-going-broke-two-simple-charts.html




Fix is hard for Medicare, Social Security finances
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/politics/6439187.html

Soul Crusher

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #101 on: August 05, 2009, 12:59:40 PM »
The FDIC Is in Trouble
Safe Haven ^ | 8/5/09

Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 3:28:47 PM by FromLori

As we all know, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) guarantees depositors that they'll get their money back if a bank fails, at least up to a certain amount. To fund its operations, the FDIC collects small fees from the banks that are held in reserve for the purpose of taking over troubled banks and paying off depositors.

Since the Great Depression, a period marked by widespread runs on banks, the FDIC has done a good job of fulfilling its mandate. So how are they doing in this crisis?

In a nutshell, they are in trouble.

The FDIC insures 8,246 institutions, with $13.5 trillion in assets. Not all of them are going bankrupt, of course. Yet as of late July, a disturbing 64 banks had gone belly up this year - the most since 1992 - costing the FDIC $12.5 billion. At the end of Q1, the agency was already asking for emergency funding.

And worse, much worse, is likely yet to come. The following chart shows the total assets on the books of the FDIC's list of 305 troubled banks. The list doesn't include the biggest banks that are considered too big to fail, as they are being separately supported with bailouts. By contrast, if the banks on this list fail, the FDIC is on the hook to have to step in and take them over and, of course, make depositors whole.

Other measures of how serious the losses at banks are becoming can be seen in the chart below, which shows charge-offs and non-current loans at all banks. You can see that the Net Charge-offs remain stubbornly high, with banks charging off almost $40 billion in bad loans in the last two quarters alone. And the number of non-current loans - loans where payments are not being kept up - is soaring.

Together, these measures indicate the potential for more big failures and more big bailouts coming down the pike.

About Those Reserves...

Into the battle against bank insolvency the Fed brings a level of reserves that can best be described as paper-thin. From almost $60 billion last fall, the FDIC's reserves have been drawn down to only about $13 billion today, a 16-year low. A quick look at the FDIC's own data shows us how inadequate those reserves are compared to the deposits they are now insuring.

The chart below says it all:
As you can see, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation currently covers each dollar on deposit with a trivial 2/10ths of a penny.

And even that understates the seriousness of the situation: the $4.8 trillion in deposits the FDIC is providing coverage on doesn't include the expansion that now extends insurance coverage from $100,000 to $250,000 for normal bank accounts. That likely brings the exposure of the FDIC closer to $6 trillion. But that's pretty inconsequential at this point: using any reasonable accounting method, the FDIC is already bankrupt and will require hundreds of billions of dollars in government bailouts just to keep the doors open.

So, given the dire shape of its finances, what measures is the FDIC taking, you know, to batten down the hatches and all that?

For starters, they are expanding their mandate by guaranteeing bank loans - $350 billion and counting at this point. And the government has tapped the FDIC to play a pivotal role in guaranteeing the loans issued to buy toxic waste through the government's highly problematic and fraud-prone new Private Public Investment Partnership (PPIP). The FDIC's commitment to the PPIP is and may become limited based on its resources.

It is hard to draw any other conclusion but that hundreds of billions in new funding will be required to keep the FDIC operating. Given the catastrophic consequences of the FDIC failing, starting with a bank run of biblical proportions, there's no question it will get whatever funding it needs. By loading the new loan guarantee responsibilities and the PPIP onto the FDIC's back, the administration will go back to Congress and ask for the next large bailout.

Of course, in the end, all of this falls on the taxpayer, either directly in the form of more taxes or indirectly via the destruction of the dollar's purchasing power. Another bale of straw on the camel's back, and another reason to be concerned about holding paper dollars for the long term.

If you still trust the government to take care of you and yours when the feces hits the fan, you're on the path to financial disaster.

________________________ ________________________ ___________________

Straw and Decker - OWNED AGAIN. 

James

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #102 on: August 05, 2009, 01:17:45 PM »
Quote
The FDIC Is in Trouble
Safe Haven ^ | 8/5/09

Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 3:28:47 PM by FromLori

As we all know, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) guarantees depositors that they'll get their money back if a bank fails, at least up to a certain amount. To fund its operations, the FDIC collects small fees from the banks that are held in reserve for the purpose of taking over troubled banks and paying off depositors.

Since the Great Depression, a period marked by widespread runs on banks, the FDIC has done a good job of fulfilling its mandate. So how are they doing in this crisis?

In a nutshell, they are in trouble.

The FDIC insures 8,246 institutions, with $13.5 trillion in assets. Not all of them are going bankrupt, of course. Yet as of late July, a disturbing 64 banks had gone belly up this year - the most since 1992 - costing the FDIC $12.5 billion. At the end of Q1, the agency was already asking for emergency funding.

And worse, much worse, is likely yet to come. The following chart shows the total assets on the books of the FDIC's list of 305 troubled banks. The list doesn't include the biggest banks that are considered too big to fail, as they are being separately supported with bailouts. By contrast, if the banks on this list fail, the FDIC is on the hook to have to step in and take them over and, of course, make depositors whole.

Other measures of how serious the losses at banks are becoming can be seen in the chart below, which shows charge-offs and non-current loans at all banks. You can see that the Net Charge-offs remain stubbornly high, with banks charging off almost $40 billion in bad loans in the last two quarters alone. And the number of non-current loans - loans where payments are not being kept up - is soaring.

Together, these measures indicate the potential for more big failures and more big bailouts coming down the pike.

About Those Reserves...

Into the battle against bank insolvency the Fed brings a level of reserves that can best be described as paper-thin. From almost $60 billion last fall, the FDIC's reserves have been drawn down to only about $13 billion today, a 16-year low. A quick look at the FDIC's own data shows us how inadequate those reserves are compared to the deposits they are now insuring.

The chart below says it all:
As you can see, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation currently covers each dollar on deposit with a trivial 2/10ths of a penny.

And even that understates the seriousness of the situation: the $4.8 trillion in deposits the FDIC is providing coverage on doesn't include the expansion that now extends insurance coverage from $100,000 to $250,000 for normal bank accounts. That likely brings the exposure of the FDIC closer to $6 trillion. But that's pretty inconsequential at this point: using any reasonable accounting method, the FDIC is already bankrupt and will require hundreds of billions of dollars in government bailouts just to keep the doors open.

So, given the dire shape of its finances, what measures is the FDIC taking, you know, to batten down the hatches and all that?

For starters, they are expanding their mandate by guaranteeing bank loans - $350 billion and counting at this point. And the government has tapped the FDIC to play a pivotal role in guaranteeing the loans issued to buy toxic waste through the government's highly problematic and fraud-prone new Private Public Investment Partnership (PPIP). The FDIC's commitment to the PPIP is and may become limited based on its resources.

It is hard to draw any other conclusion but that hundreds of billions in new funding will be required to keep the FDIC operating. Given the catastrophic consequences of the FDIC failing, starting with a bank run of biblical proportions, there's no question it will get whatever funding it needs. By loading the new loan guarantee responsibilities and the PPIP onto the FDIC's back, the administration will go back to Congress and ask for the next large bailout.

Of course, in the end, all of this falls on the taxpayer, either directly in the form of more taxes or indirectly via the destruction of the dollar's purchasing power. Another bale of straw on the camel's back, and another reason to be concerned about holding paper dollars for the long term.

If you still trust the government to take care of you and yours when the feces hits the fan, you're on the path to financial disaster.

________________________ ________________________ ___________________

Straw and Decker - OWNED AGAIN.
 

QFT

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #103 on: August 05, 2009, 02:02:52 PM »
Al you nailed it on the head until you got to your second paragraph. The government does want to put the private companies out of business. Thats the point!
I doubt it. The government benefits much more from taxing the companies and the eco-system it supports.

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #104 on: August 05, 2009, 02:49:29 PM »
You lost me.

But, imo this has nothing to do with making money- there is no way the government will actually make money from covering every single American. From a logistical standpoint it would be impossible for the government to turn a profit.  This has everything to do with creating a power vaccum and making the government overlord of everything. Freezing out the private sector, taking over car companies, Government run healthcare, taxing only those who make decent money- its all part of the Democrats plan to ensure its party stays in power. This isn't a conspiracy theory, its just good politics.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #105 on: August 05, 2009, 02:55:38 PM »
You lost me.

But, imo this has nothing to do with making money- there is no way the government will actually make money from covering every single American. From a logistical standpoint it would be impossible for the government to turn a profit.  This has everything to do with creating a power vaccum and making the government overlord of everything. Freezing out the private sector, taking over car companies, Government run healthcare, taxing only those who make decent money- its all part of the Democrats plan to ensure its party stays in power. This isn't a conspiracy theory, its just good politics.

My example above is exactly how this is going to go down.  Obama, like everything else, is lying about this.  Companies are going to be forced to dump all their employees on the public system by offering a so called "loss leader" for all your marketing experts, while the actual cost is going to be much higher and paid by the taxpayers.     

Al Doggity

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #106 on: August 05, 2009, 03:41:12 PM »
The last two replies are exactly why I can't take your warning about an eminent government takeover of health care seriously. You just see the adminstration's goals far differently than i do. You two see the government's takeover of GM as a way to takeover capitalism. I saw it as a way to preserve jobs in a terrible economy.

You  see "Obamacare" as a way for them  to eventually takeover the healthcare system. I see every reason for the government NOT to want to do that. The details of the final plan haven't even been worked out, From what we know, the plan will likely only be available to individuals and small businesses and larger companies will be required to offer healthcare plans, which actually increases large health care providers customer base.

OzmO

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #107 on: August 05, 2009, 03:45:31 PM »
Yeah 3333,  you likened that medicare thing to Obama becoming a dictator.

Seems a bit CT-ish or Alarm-ish.



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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #108 on: August 06, 2009, 06:29:29 AM »
Yeah 3333,  you likened that medicare thing to Obama becoming a dictator.

Seems a bit CT-ish or Alarm-ish.




Go read the Lewen Group report.   

http://www.lewin.com/content/publications/June25TestimonyUpdate.pdf


You can attack my posts all you like, but almost every one is based on fact.  This report confirms exactly what I was saying.

 

Decker

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #109 on: August 06, 2009, 07:25:28 AM »
Facts:

Medicare Will Go Broke By 2018

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/01/AR2006050101448.html

New Trustees Report Says Medicare Going Broke Slightly Faster than Expected

http://seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Medicare/2008/8-03-26-NewTrusteesReport.htm


Medicaid: It's Broken
http://www.massmed.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=MMS_Forum26&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&CONTENTID=8108

Why Social Security Is Going Broke:
http://www.mymoneyblog.com/archives/2009/07/why-social-security-is-going-broke-two-simple-charts.html




Fix is hard for Medicare, Social Security finances
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/politics/6439187.html
None of those articles show FACTS about the solvency of any federal program.

They show opinions based selective projections.

How the fuck can a federal program's solvency be a fact if you're talking 10 years from now?

This is what makes debating here painful.  Guys like this.

The economic experts can't even agree on what's going to transpire a week from now and this guy is posting facts about the year 2018+.

Decker

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #110 on: August 06, 2009, 07:28:35 AM »
The FDIC Is in Trouble
Safe Haven ^ | 8/5/09

Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 3:28:47 PM by FromLori

As we all know, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) guarantees depositors that they'll get their money back if a bank fails, at least up to a certain amount. To fund its operations, the FDIC collects small fees from the banks that are held in reserve for the purpose of taking over troubled banks and paying off depositors.

Since the Great Depression, a period marked by widespread runs on banks, the FDIC has done a good job of fulfilling its mandate. So how are they doing in this crisis?

In a nutshell, they are in trouble.

The FDIC insures 8,246 institutions, with $13.5 trillion in assets. Not all of them are going bankrupt, of course. Yet as of late July, a disturbing 64 banks had gone belly up this year - the most since 1992 - costing the FDIC $12.5 billion. At the end of Q1, the agency was already asking for emergency funding.

And worse, much worse, is likely yet to come. The following chart shows the total assets on the books of the FDIC's list of 305 troubled banks. The list doesn't include the biggest banks that are considered too big to fail, as they are being separately supported with bailouts. By contrast, if the banks on this list fail, the FDIC is on the hook to have to step in and take them over and, of course, make depositors whole.

Other measures of how serious the losses at banks are becoming can be seen in the chart below, which shows charge-offs and non-current loans at all banks. You can see that the Net Charge-offs remain stubbornly high, with banks charging off almost $40 billion in bad loans in the last two quarters alone. And the number of non-current loans - loans where payments are not being kept up - is soaring.

Together, these measures indicate the potential for more big failures and more big bailouts coming down the pike.

About Those Reserves...

Into the battle against bank insolvency the Fed brings a level of reserves that can best be described as paper-thin. From almost $60 billion last fall, the FDIC's reserves have been drawn down to only about $13 billion today, a 16-year low. A quick look at the FDIC's own data shows us how inadequate those reserves are compared to the deposits they are now insuring.

The chart below says it all:
As you can see, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation currently covers each dollar on deposit with a trivial 2/10ths of a penny.

And even that understates the seriousness of the situation: the $4.8 trillion in deposits the FDIC is providing coverage on doesn't include the expansion that now extends insurance coverage from $100,000 to $250,000 for normal bank accounts. That likely brings the exposure of the FDIC closer to $6 trillion. But that's pretty inconsequential at this point: using any reasonable accounting method, the FDIC is already bankrupt and will require hundreds of billions of dollars in government bailouts just to keep the doors open.

So, given the dire shape of its finances, what measures is the FDIC taking, you know, to batten down the hatches and all that?

For starters, they are expanding their mandate by guaranteeing bank loans - $350 billion and counting at this point. And the government has tapped the FDIC to play a pivotal role in guaranteeing the loans issued to buy toxic waste through the government's highly problematic and fraud-prone new Private Public Investment Partnership (PPIP). The FDIC's commitment to the PPIP is and may become limited based on its resources.

It is hard to draw any other conclusion but that hundreds of billions in new funding will be required to keep the FDIC operating. Given the catastrophic consequences of the FDIC failing, starting with a bank run of biblical proportions, there's no question it will get whatever funding it needs. By loading the new loan guarantee responsibilities and the PPIP onto the FDIC's back, the administration will go back to Congress and ask for the next large bailout.

Of course, in the end, all of this falls on the taxpayer, either directly in the form of more taxes or indirectly via the destruction of the dollar's purchasing power. Another bale of straw on the camel's back, and another reason to be concerned about holding paper dollars for the long term.

If you still trust the government to take care of you and yours when the feces hits the fan, you're on the path to financial disaster.

________________________ ________________________ ___________________

Straw and Decker - OWNED AGAIN. 

You're as bad as that James dude is with misunderestimating your own opinion.

The FDIC will never dissolve at least not until our government dissolves.

Every business is feeling the pinch of the depression.  That rings throughout the economic web.

I even forgot what point you are trying to make.

Al Doggity

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #111 on: August 06, 2009, 08:07:42 AM »
Go read the Lewen Group report.   

http://www.lewin.com/content/publications/June25TestimonyUpdate.pdf


You can attack my posts all you like, but almost every one is based on fact.  This report confirms exactly what I was saying.

 

The "facts" you choose to base your posts on are often incorrect,  and this is a perfect example. Like I said in my previous post, the exact details of the plan arent available yet, so a study like this is useless. The numbers this study uses are way off from the numbers most people assume are gonna wind up in the final bill. The biggest assumption this study makes that most people don't think will hash out is that large companies won't be able to opt in to the government plan. That's about a 50 million subscriber difference right there. There are a lot of other assumptions this study makes that prob won't end up in the final bill either.

This study is based on assumptions. It is not a matter of fact.

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #112 on: August 06, 2009, 08:10:46 AM »
The "facts" you choose to base your posts on are often incorrect,  and this is a perfect example. Like I said in my previous post, the exact details of the plan arent available yet, so a study like this is useless. The numbers this study uses are way off from the numbers most people assume are gonna wind up in the final bill. The biggest assumption this study makes that most people don't think will hash out is that large companies won't be able to opt in to the government plan. That's about a 50 million subscriber difference right there. There are a lot of other assumptions this study makes that prob won't end up in the final bill either.

This study is based on assumptions. It is not a matter of fact.

The Lewen Group is the most widely used group to make projections in health care and it one the most respected and because you dont agree with it, you think they are wrong. 

Based on what????

Not one person has discredited this report.   

Decker

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #113 on: August 06, 2009, 08:14:51 AM »
The Lewen Group is the most widely used group to make projections in health care and it one the most respected and because you dont agree with it, you think they are wrong. 

Based on what????

Not one person has discredited this report.   
Read the PDF you posted.  The Lewen Group is wholly owned by big insurance.

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #114 on: August 06, 2009, 08:14:59 AM »
The Lewen Group is the most widely used group to make projections in health care and it one the most respected and because you dont agree with it, you think they are wrong. 

Based on what????

Not one person has discredited this report.   

The CBO discredited this report.

And the Lewin group is owned by an insurance company, which is why it is such a widely used source for the insurance propaganda machine.

eta-Yeah, what Decker said.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #115 on: August 06, 2009, 08:17:25 AM »
The CBO discredited this report.

And the Lewin group is owned by an insurance company, which is why it is such a widely used source for the insurance propaganda machine.

eta-Yeah, what Decker said.


And the CBO discredited Obama's claims as well.   

Al Doggity

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #116 on: August 06, 2009, 08:21:27 AM »
And the CBO discredited Obama's claims as well.   

Two different claims.

The CBO said that the plan probably would not result in lower medical costs.

They also said there was almost no chance of  driving the insurance industry out of business.

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #117 on: August 10, 2009, 09:29:43 PM »
If you dont like one company, you always have the choice to go to another. 

When the govt takes over, if it screws up, you have no other choices.  You are stuck by law with whatever garbage they ffed you with no choice whatsoever. 

is this true?

can I simply shop between a bunch of different health insurance companies?

an even better question is what value do health insurance companies provide in the delivery of health care to our citizens?



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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #118 on: August 11, 2009, 04:50:47 AM »
is this true?

can I simply shop between a bunch of different health insurance companies?

an even better question is what value do health insurance companies provide in the delivery of health care to our citizens?




1.  The answer is yes. 

2.  What value do they provide?  Its insurance and not intended to "add value" as you say.  its the same "value" that the insurance company who insures your home adds to your house or your auto carrier adds to your car. 

If you are not happy with insurance, pay the doctor yourself for your treatment.  No one is stopping you from doing that.     

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #119 on: August 12, 2009, 10:00:27 AM »
1.  The answer is yes. 

2.  What value do they provide?  Its insurance and not intended to "add value" as you say.  its the same "value" that the insurance company who insures your home adds to your house or your auto carrier adds to your car. 

If you are not happy with insurance, pay the doctor yourself for your treatment.  No one is stopping you from doing that.     

1.  the answer is actually NO.   There are very few options in many states.  I'd post a link showing the dirth of competition in this country and how many states are virtually monopolized by a few companies but it would require you to actually go look at it and I know you won't

2.  you actually correct for once.  Insurance companies add no value.  The difference btw health insurance companies and auto insurance (for example) is that if I have an accident in my car my auto insurance actually does what it's supposed to do and pays for the repairs (and maybe raises my premium if it's my fault).   With health insurance companies you have no gurantee that they will pay and in fact they will go out of their way to find ways not to pay.   You know this is true so don't even bother pretending to deny it. 

3. Of course you can choose to pay a doctor directly but that's not really an option for people who can't even afford insurance or can't afford the high deductible on their policy

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #120 on: August 12, 2009, 01:45:17 PM »
...

3. Of course you can choose to pay a doctor directly but that's not really an option for people who can't even afford insurance or can't afford the high deductible on their policy
That's a great point.  The trend for ER provided health insurance is to buy cheap to save money.  To do that, deductibles are going through the roof.  Our health insurance is turning into catastrophic insurance b/c of that.

Now we can wait to see some opponent tie UHC to some perceived exercise of FREEDOM.  Paying high deductibles is FREEDOM.

No Coverage at all is FREEDOM.

I may not have any health insurance to speak of but I"m FREE.....DOM.

I don't know what just happened there.


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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #121 on: August 12, 2009, 02:15:25 PM »
That's a great point.  The trend for ER provided health insurance is to buy cheap to save money.  To do that, deductibles are going through the roof.  Our health insurance is turning into catastrophic insurance b/c of that.

Now we can wait to see some opponent tie UHC to some perceived exercise of FREEDOM.  Paying high deductibles is FREEDOM.

No Coverage at all is FREEDOM.

I may not have any health insurance to speak of but I"m FREE.....DOM.

I don't know what just happened there.



Nor does freedom equal you choosing to pick  A's pocket to give something for free to B.   

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #122 on: August 12, 2009, 02:17:36 PM »
Nor does freedom equal you choosing to pick  A's pocket to give something for free to B.   
That's the cost of civil society my man.

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #123 on: August 12, 2009, 04:23:41 PM »
Nor does freedom equal you choosing to pick  A's pocket to give something for free to B.   

"333" you know full well that in many states in this country only few health insurance companies control the entire state. 

I literally have more options for beer at 7-11 than I do for health care providers (and 7-11's selection of beer sucks unless you're like Obama and drink Bud light)

Lack of competition, recission, pre-existing conditions, and HMO admins making medical decisions are the main problems with our system.

For some reason we've decided to let insurance companies ration out health care and allow them to make money by monopolyzing markets and denying people healthcare that they've rightfully paid for.

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Re: Straw Man
« Reply #124 on: August 12, 2009, 04:25:02 PM »
Nor does freedom equal you choosing to pick  A's pocket to give something for free to B.   

who's pocket is being picked and who is getting something for free?