Author Topic: Why Libertarian = Fail  (Read 4594 times)

Decker

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Why Libertarian = Fail
« on: August 05, 2009, 07:29:06 AM »
According to "the private society" concept, endorsed by libertarians and self-described "conservatives," the pursuit of each individual for personal gain (principally in "free markets") results in optimal social conditions for all. These desirable consequences, the regressive right would have us believe, occur spontaneously without purposeful human design, and are maintained with no need for government regulation, by what Adam Smith calls "an invisible hand." Thus the legitimate role of government is minimal. "Society" is an aggregate of isolated, "utility maximizing" individuals. There is no "public interest" over and above private interests.

In contrast, the progressive view of "the well-ordered society" insists that in numerous significant and easily identifiable instances, the endeavor of each for advantage can be detrimental to the community – good for each, bad for all; and conversely, that constraints upon each individual can result in advantages to the community in general – bad for each, good for all." It is the function of social institutions, both inside and outside of government, to optimize the "the common good" through mutually agreed upon constraints on each individual.

… The free-market absolutism plus libertarian anarchism proclaimed here by the right wing and accepted with scant criticism by the corporate media, is regarded abroad as somewhat insane. Unfortunately for us all, most Americans are immersed in this insanity.

Why, then, is regressivism dominant in our society, despite its obvious shortcomings?

The answer is, by now, familiar: regressivism is a "master morality" -- an ethos devised and promulgated by, and operating to the advantage of, the wealthy and powerful. Regressivism, with its precepts of "trickle down," "the sin of poverty," taxation as "theft," the unqualified superiority of privatism over government, is essentially an elaborate justification of greed and an institutionalization of privilege. As John Kenneth Galbraith once observed, "the modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

http://gadfly.igc.org/progressive/good-each.htm

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I think the moral and ethical critiques of libertarianism are sufficient to kill it...or at least expose it for the sham that it is.

This excerpt is fully supported by the author with multiple examples, arguments and demonstrations...just follow the link.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2009, 07:32:30 AM »
According to "the private society" concept, endorsed by libertarians and self-described "conservatives," the pursuit of each individual for personal gain (principally in "free markets") results in optimal social conditions for all. These desirable consequences, the regressive right would have us believe, occur spontaneously without purposeful human design, and are maintained with no need for government regulation, by what Adam Smith calls "an invisible hand." Thus the legitimate role of government is minimal. "Society" is an aggregate of isolated, "utility maximizing" individuals. There is no "public interest" over and above private interests.

In contrast, the progressive view of "the well-ordered society" insists that in numerous significant and easily identifiable instances, the endeavor of each for advantage can be detrimental to the community – good for each, bad for all; and conversely, that constraints upon each individual can result in advantages to the community in general – bad for each, good for all." It is the function of social institutions, both inside and outside of government, to optimize the "the common good" through mutually agreed upon constraints on each individual.

… The free-market absolutism plus libertarian anarchism proclaimed here by the right wing and accepted with scant criticism by the corporate media, is regarded abroad as somewhat insane. Unfortunately for us all, most Americans are immersed in this insanity.

Why, then, is regressivism dominant in our society, despite its obvious shortcomings?

The answer is, by now, familiar: regressivism is a "master morality" -- an ethos devised and promulgated by, and operating to the advantage of, the wealthy and powerful. Regressivism, with its precepts of "trickle down," "the sin of poverty," taxation as "theft," the unqualified superiority of privatism over government, is essentially an elaborate justification of greed and an institutionalization of privilege. As John Kenneth Galbraith once observed, "the modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

http://gadfly.igc.org/progressive/good-each.htm

________________________ ________________
I think the moral and ethical critiques of libertarianism are sufficient to kill it...or at least expose it for the sham that it is.

This excerpt is fully supported by the author with multiple examples, arguments and demonstrations...just follow the link.

Right because the ultimate good is letting the govt run your life and finances???

no thanks Decker.   

The Showstoppa

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2009, 07:34:16 AM »
Right because the ultimate good is letting the govt run your life and finances???

no thanks Decker.   

when you are a dullard like Decker, maybe that is true....

Decker

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2009, 07:40:37 AM »
Right because the ultimate good is letting the govt run your life and finances???

no thanks Decker.   
You simply cannot acknowledge the fact that government is necessary and plays a positive role in the course of our events.

Sure gov. has its problems, everything subject to human control has problems.  Even your free market has failures.

Do you admit that gov. is necessary?

Decker

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2009, 07:42:04 AM »
when you are a dullard like Decker, maybe that is true....
Try To “Rattle Him,” Not Have An Intelligent Debate


That seems to be your calling. 

See...I'm a dullard.  hahahaha. 

Come back when you have something constructive or entertaining to say. 

The Showstoppa

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2009, 07:43:49 AM »
Try To “Rattle Him,” Not Have An Intelligent Debate


That seems to be your calling. 

See...I'm a dullard.  hahahaha. 

Come back when you have something constructive or entertaining to say. 


Hmmmm......kinda like on my thread, huh?  Pot meet kettle.


 8)

Decker

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2009, 07:48:58 AM »

Hmmmm......kinda like on my thread, huh?  Pot meet kettle.


 8)
My thread is well thought out and informative.  Yours is a font of bullshit and error.

So the two aren't really the same, are they?

Soul Crusher

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2009, 07:49:35 AM »
You simply cannot acknowledge the fact that government is necessary and plays a positive role in the course of our events.

Sure gov. has its problems, everything subject to human control has problems.  Even your free market has failures.

Do you admit that gov. is necessary?

The govt, as Jefferson said, is but a necessary evil.   It is not positive force, but required in only limited areas to preserve liberty and freedom.  

It is not supposed to be usurping liberty and freedom from some so that it can give to others.  At least that is not what our country was founded on.    

Kazan

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2009, 07:55:24 AM »
You simply cannot acknowledge the fact that government is necessary and plays a positive role in the course of our events.

Sure gov. has its problems, everything subject to human control has problems.  Even your free market has failures.

Do you admit that gov. is necessary?

Government is necessary, but the United States Constitution limits the power of the Federal Government, and defers it to the states, which seems to have been ignored since FDR and the new deal. Then LBJ and the great society, and now Obama and the "fair society".

The governments "need" to stick it's nose in the buisness of its citizens has been shown to be a disaster time after time.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Decker

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2009, 08:05:46 AM »
The govt, as Jefferson said, is but a necessary evil.   It is not positive force, but required in only limited areas to preserve liberty and freedom.  

It is not supposed to be usurping liberty and freedom from some so that it can give to others.  At least that is not what our country was founded on.    
Gov. is a positive force.  Jefferson's histrionics aside, the gov. has helped flood victims, college students, old people, disabled people, corporate industry and on and on.

How exactly are those noble things usurping liberty and freedom?

What on earth do the beliefs of the founders have to do with the nonsense pushed by today's libertarian?

Decker

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2009, 08:10:14 AM »
Government is necessary, but the United States Constitution limits the power of the Federal Government, and defers it to the states, which seems to have been ignored since FDR and the new deal. Then LBJ and the great society, and now Obama and the "fair society".


There are more features to the US constitution than just the 10th amendment.

Quote
The governments "need" to stick it's nose in the buisness of its citizens has been shown to be a disaster time after time.
Such as?

When FDR set up Soc. Sec., anti-trust laws, FDIC, TVA and others, he did a great service to our country.  The free market fails all the time.  We need governmental moderation of the markets.  Services that private entities cannot or will not provide are provided by the federal government.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2009, 08:10:52 AM »
Gov. is a positive force.  Jefferson's histrionics aside, the gov. has helped flood victims, college students, old people, disabled people, corporate industry and on and on.

How exactly are those noble things usurping liberty and freedom?

What on earth do the beliefs of the founders have to do with the nonsense pushed by today's libertarian?


"How exactly are those noble things usurping liberty and freedom?"

You are clueless.  Really clueless.  In order to "help" all those people, you are hurting others in the form of confiscatory taxes, insane regulations, corporate welfare, inflation, etc.

The govt has not helped people with aschool loans other than the GI Bill.  School loans like the govt gives only makes colleges, like health care and everything else it gets involved in, overly expensive and outpaces the core rate of inflation.  

Tell me Decker:  Why is is that computers, cell phones, tech, have all come down in price while the quality has gone up while health care, education, cars, homes etc have all gone up in price far beyond the rate of inflation?????

shootfighter1

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2009, 08:15:06 AM »
Government is necessary but its powers specifically limited by our founders and the constitution.  They would be at significant odds with progressives.  They would also be at odds with pure libertarians.  Pure libertarianism and pure capitalism is unwise.  However, it is clear that Obama and the progressives are taking this country away from the ideals it was founded upon through our constitution.  They must be checked in 2010.

Decker

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2009, 08:19:19 AM »

"How exactly are those noble things usurping liberty and freedom?"

You are clueless.  Really clueless.  In order to "help" all those people, you are hurting others in the form of confiscatory taxes, insane regulations, corporate welfare, inflation, etc.
Your anti-tax rhetoric is baloney.  It's just another example of your complete and utter selfishness. 

For some reason, you think the US came as is, paid for by no one, and is your personal playground.  It isn't.

Insane regulations?  Like the regulations that ensure your food won't kill you or that your water won't poison you or that bridges won't collapse from under you?

What exactly are you talking about?

Quote
The govt has not helped people with aschool loans other than the GI Bill.
You've never heard of federal college loans?  They exist.
 https://www.fafsa.com/Forms/Ajax/FAFSA/frmProfile.aspx?rf=0;pku3at=zg50002a


Quote
School loans like the govt gives only makes colleges, like health care and everything else it gets involved in, overly expensive and outpaces the core rate of inflation.
I don't understand what you are trying to express here. 

Quote
Tell me Decker:  Why is is that computers, cell phones, tech, have all come down in price while the quality has gone up while health care, education, cars, homes etc have all gone up in price far beyond the rate of inflation?????
The gov. gave free R&D to private corporations for cell phones, computers and tech.

I know why health care is out of control and it's for different reasons than those attributable to cars or homes or education.

What's your point?


Bindare_Dundat

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2009, 08:20:18 AM »
Sanford and Son had a great episode last night.

watch 4:27 and why Grady justifies cashing in extra social security chacks that were sent to him by accident.


Decker

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2009, 08:21:06 AM »
Government is necessary but its powers specifically limited by our founders and the constitution.  They would be at significant odds with progressives. 
Exactly how?

Quote
They would also be at odds with pure libertarians.  Pure libertarianism and pure capitalism is unwise.  However, it is clear that Obama and the progressives are taking this country away from the ideals it was founded upon through our constitution.  They must be checked in 2010.
Again, exactly how?

I can point to the successes of the New Deal to show that governmental spending does in fact work.  By 'work' I mean improve the lives of millions of people b/c the free market failed them.

Decker

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2009, 08:22:59 AM »
Sanford and Son had a great episode last night.

watch 4:27 and why Grady justifies cashing in extra social security chacks that were sent to him by accident.


Sanford and Son was a top show for me.  Nobody beats Fred.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2009, 08:25:07 AM »
Decker - you seriously are clueless. 

If you want to pay 100% taxes, fine, you are free to do so, but at least admit you could care less about being free. 

Many of us prefer to not have to work over 1/2 the year for the govt.


shootfighter1

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2009, 08:29:43 AM »
This is a fundamental difference of opinion that is probably not going to go anywhere.  Government is certainly not all bad and is certainly necessary IMO...but government is also wasteful and politicians are corrupt.  The larger the government is; with more committees, representatives, czars, obligations, programs, etc. the more it costs (the less discretionary income individuals have to choose how to spend) and the more waste there is.

Decker

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2009, 08:32:48 AM »
Decker - you seriously are clueless. 

If you want to pay 100% taxes, fine, you are free to do so, but at least admit you could care less about being free. 

Many of us prefer to not have to work over 1/2 the year for the govt.


Freedom does not mean freedom from responsibility.

It means freedom to do certain things and be free from certain things.

When you figure that out, then your libertarian error will disappear.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2009, 08:34:11 AM »
Freedom does not mean freedom from responsibility.

It means freedom to do certain things and be free from certain things.

When you figure that out, then your libertarian error will disappear.

But - according to Decker - Freedom means paying 50% or better to Uncle Sam and accept whatever garbage they feed us.   

I got it.   

Decker

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2009, 08:36:02 AM »
This is a fundamental difference of opinion that is probably not going to go anywhere.  Government is certainly not all bad and is certainly necessary IMO...but government is also wasteful and politicians are corrupt.  The larger the government is; with more committees, representatives, czars, obligations, programs, etc. the more it costs (the less discretionary income individuals have to choose how to spend) and the more waste there is.
I agree with you to an extent.

Population will likely keep growing.  Representative government for that growing population will necessarily increase.  Government will grow to meet the complexities of a growing society.

Gov. makes mistakes b/c people make mistakes.  Gov. has competing interests b/c people have competing interests.  And gov., by and for the people, must eventually choose which interest trumps another for the moment.

Waste happens.  Working to minimize waste is a good thing.

But there is no denying the necessity and sometimes good effect of the federal government.  Same goes for the private sector.

Decker

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2009, 08:37:46 AM »
But - according to Decker - Freedom means paying 50% or better to Uncle Sam and accept whatever garbage they feed us.   

I got it.   
We've been throught this time and again.

You don't pay 50% or better of your earnings in taxes.  You don't.  Stop that.

Ironically, if you had your way and there was no FDA regulating the food chain, you would be eating garbage quite literally.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2009, 08:39:30 AM »
We've been throught this time and again.

You don't pay 50% or better of your earnings in taxes.  You don't.  Stop that.

Ironically, if you had your way and there was no FDA regulating the food chain, you would be eating garbage quite literally.

when you tally up State, Federal, Local, excise, sales, property, vehicle, energy, gas, phone, etc- everyone is up near 50% in one way or another.   

Decker

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Re: Why Libertarian = Fail
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2009, 08:56:00 AM »
when you tally up State, Federal, Local, excise, sales, property, vehicle, energy, gas, phone, etc- everyone is up near 50% in one way or another.   
No it's not.

When you tally state and federal taxes, the US's burden is only 28% of GDP.  The UK's is 37.1, Ireland-37, Sweden- 49.1, France- 44.2, Luxembourg
 35.9 and so on.


Relatively speaking, we have a light tax burden.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2009/04/bartlett-time-to-tea-bag-the-tea-parties.html