EZ Bar Pullover...Shoulder tweaked and almost gave out...WTF

[ngm21084]

hey broskis ive been doing some form of pullovers for a pretty long time back when i was hitting the base gym i would do cable pullovers...since ive been working out of my house or random hotels ive been doing ez bar or db pullovers...well today while i was dong the ez bar pullovers my right shoulder tweaked and i almost lost the weight behind my head really kind of shook me a little bit and i cant figure out what i was doing wrong....i do the pullovers as part of my back workout and have never had a problem till today....i was thinking maybe i just had to much weight on the bar?? but i only went up 10 pounds from last back workout...anyone have any insight on this move i would appreciate it....

[tonymctones]

pull overs can be rough on your shoulders bro, I dont really understand what your asking? could be your speed of the exercise

[XS]

Watch your depth/stretch and stay tight.  Sounds like you over extended & your form loosened up.

Easy fix.

[pumpster]

Agree with the above, the movement puts a lot of pressure on the shoulders and joints so what you experienced was probably inevitable at some point as the weight increased.

To avoid a repeat there are a number of things worth trying, here are some.Keep the reps higher and rest between sets to a minute or less, instead of focusing on piling more weight on, keep the weight moderate and use it under control with no momentum and try reducing the ROM and avoiding the area of the ROM that puts the most pressure on the area - this reduces potential trauma plus it keeps the muscle under tension even with less weight used with more control.

[jpm101]

Assuming that you are doing the straight arm pullover (actually a slight break at the elbow joint), a grip wider than about shoulder width can cause problems with the shoulders. Any closer grip can relieve undo stress on the shoulder/rotor cuff area. Doing DB straight arm pullovers can be much better for most. The whole point of the pullover is going for a good stretch. A prime part of the exercise.

Exceptional movement, either straight or bent arm fpr lats, triceps, pecs and even abs.. Seen some use over 205lbs on the straight arm version, for reps of 10 to 12. Record for the bent arm version is around 400, if I remember correctly.

Perhaps not a long enough warm-up, with the EZ bar, may have caused a problem. Using the new weight (10 lbs) should not have made than much of a difference if pullovers have been part of your normal workouts.The EZ bar should not have had any great negative influence. A Bud of mine uses a triceps bar on his pullovers, with good results.

Not sure what is meant by tweaked: joint pop, pain, etc. If you suddenly got weaken and almost lost the weight,than that would suggest nerve damage. Which usually just requires a little rest, massage or hot/cold packs. If this seems to linger for a week or two than might be advised to seem a doctor. A chiropractor, acupuncture/acupressure, Rolfing have been know to help quite a bit. Good Luck.

[ngm21084]

my grip has been a hair tighter than shoulder width and basically it felt like my shoulder popped out and rolled back and somehow my left arm was able to compensate for a quick second to pull it back in before itsnapped  my arm back...ive never had a problem with it before im thinking maybe i just overextended...ill see if i can address the issue next time i do them...although i am going to break some weight off the bar and go real light to make sure its not my shoulder having serious problems and that it was just me overextended which sounds most likely...thanks broskis...by the way i loved pullovers till yesterday...

[jpm101]

Just wondering....by over extensions do you mean lowering the bar, behind the head, more than usually? Or locking out the elbows completely? In either case, going for more of a stretch? Might find that changing the grip a bit may reduce potential problems.

Pullovers are a favorite exercise of mine. Prefer the bent arm version, with DB. Can do either on a slight decline or incline for the sake of variety. Cables are my less favorite way of doing them. Just me, no big deal. Good Luck.

[ngm21084]

i think it was a mixture of trying to get a deeper stretch and probably at the same time tightening up my elbows too  much....it just got in my head you know (hard to explain)....thanks for all the advice though as i am going to go with a db pullover next time i do them and go light and make sure my form is spot on before i jump on the heavy weight (well heavy for me im sure not that heavy for all the getbig monsters!!)...

Just wondering....by over extensions do you mean lowering the bar, behind the head, more than usually? Or locking out the elbows completely? In either case, going for more of a stretch? Might find that changing the grip a bit may reduce potential problems.

Pullovers are a favorite exercise of mine. Prefer the bent arm version, with DB. Can do either on a slight decline or incline for the sake of variety. Cables are my less favorite way of doing them. Just me, no big deal. Good Luck.

man all of your posts that i read always seem to be pretty solid info  man i really appreciate your advice and like reading what you have to say...

[pumpster]

i think it was a mixture of trying to get a deeper stretch and probably at the same time tightening up my elbows too  much....it just got in my head you know (hard to explain)....thanks for all the advice though as i am going to go with a db pullover next time i do them and go light and make sure my form is spot on before i jump on the heavy weight (well heavy for me im sure not that heavy for all the getbig monsters!!)...

Yup as i said a full ROM and the nature of this movement automatically puts serious stress on the area given the full rotation of the shoulders, it's very easy to agitate. Try different ROMs and ensure the weight isn't so heavy that it's part of the problem, always do it  under control with no momentum. It's easy to do things that can create problems over time, because most of the time nothing bad happens, then suddenly...

[ngm21084]

Yup as i said a full ROM and the nature of this movement automatically puts serious stress on the area given the full rotation of the shoulders, it's very easy to agitate. Try different ROMs and ensure the weight isn't so heavy that it's part of the problem, always do it  under control with no momentum. It's easy to do things that can create problems over time, because most of the time nothing bad happens, then suddenly...

although i know the weight wasnt too heavy i am going to lower it drastically the next time i do them and reevaluate my form and use DB instead of ez curl bar...i try hard on all moves that i do to stay in control and not let momentum get the weight...that just got in my head a bit and im real nervous about shoulder injuries as for some reason (prob due to all the football, baseball, and hockey)  all year round that i played from when i was little all the way through junior college...) they seem easier to hurt and aggrevate then other body parts...thanks for the tips though....im going to figure this one out because i am not willing to give up the pullover

[Nasty Nate]

Try some cable pullovers if you can. Might be a little less pressure on the joints, but still allow you to hit the muscles well.

[ngm21084]

No cable machines at the house so that's not an option thanks though

[dyslexic]

The shoulder joint is mobile, not stabile.

Take care of it. Use caution. Sometimes people will bend the elbows in an effort to handle heavier weights. A light weight with your arms straight can create the same amount of tension in the muscle as a weight two to three times as heavy with your arms bent. When you bend your arms up to 90 degrees or so, you will have the tendency NOT to lower your elbows enough to get max expansion of the rib cage (which is what I assume you are doing it for)- In other words "ROM" in this case does NOT involve bending at the elbows. You mention doing the pullover in your "back" routine-- you may want to re-check your anatomy lessons. We are not talking a straight arm pulldown here.

Benefit to risk ratio say's either can the exercise or lighten up on the weights Francis. Lifting "heavy" is not even close to being as effective as folks have been touting it to be. Moderate, moderately heavy, light, pre-exhaustion, high reps, pumps, burns... these are all key to longevity in the bodybuilding world. You just might want to be lifting another 20 to 30 years (without pain and limitations)...


Once you develop a problem with the shoulder joint and the rotator cuff muscles, the problems only seem to get worse over time. How much development do you feel you are truly getting from a pullover? Do you feel that the pullover can only get specific results that other exercises cannot?

Unless swimming Butterfly or gymnastics is your professional calling, I would find a substitute exercise... or two.

[KSA]

pullover machine when heavy weight is used

[ngm21084]

The shoulder joint is mobile, not stabile.

Take care of it. Use caution. Sometimes people will bend the elbows in an effort to handle heavier weights. A light weight with your arms straight can create the same amount of tension in the muscle as a weight two to three times as heavy with your arms bent. When you bend your arms up to 90 degrees or so, you will have the tendency NOT to lower your elbows enough to get max expansion of the rib cage (which is what I assume you are doing it for)- In other words "ROM" in this case does NOT involve bending at the elbows. You mention doing the pullover in your "back" routine-- you may want to re-check your anatomy lessons. We are not talking a straight arm pulldown here.

Benefit to risk ratio say's either can the exercise or lighten up on the weights Francis. Lifting "heavy" is not even close to being as effective as folks have been touting it to be. Moderate, moderately heavy, light, pre-exhaustion, high reps, pumps, burns... these are all key to longevity in the bodybuilding world. You just might want to be lifting another 20 to 30 years (without pain and limitations)...


Once you develop a problem with the shoulder joint and the rotator cuff muscles, the problems only seem to get worse over time. How much development do you feel you are truly getting from a pullover? Do you feel that the pullover can only get specific results that other exercises cannot?

Unless swimming Butterfly or gymnastics is your professional calling, I would find a substitute exercise... or two.

lets make one thing clear im not an ego lifter the weight wasnt to heavy i just let my form slop up a little bit and thats what happened i guess...no im not training for the buterfly but you name an exercise that works as well as the pullever because it is a good actually very good move and yes it is a direct upper back move that hits other muscles like delts, pecs, and some tris, could you recomend in your opinion what differently i could be doing on my back days it goes as of right now as follows
Pullups 3 setsX failure for warm up (1st set overhand 2nd set underhand 3rd set palms facing in)
Deads 3X8
some form of 21's just to catch my breath
Pullovers 3x8
One Arm DB Row same grip variations as the pullups...

[dyslexic]

Maybe some varying grips of pulldowns, and maybe some variations of low cable pulley rows. You could even try straight-arm unilateral pulldowns. They kinda have the "feel" of a pullover. You don't have to do them with only one arm, but you can vary between singles and doubles. They aren't easy, and they kill the abs too.

 Hope you understand, my post wasn't intended to put you down. I was sort of being facetious about the fly, but at the same time I swam USA butterfly for over 12 years.

The pullover is an excellent exercise, I'm just not sure it's as necessary as people think. When I read throughout the posts in the "training" forum, there seems to be a recurring theme of shoulder problems/injuries. As a trainer, I run into them more often than not. I think the shoulder injuries and pains in the gym associated with the shoulders are the most common.


I think finding a way to really stretch the lats (without injury) is a great way to get that whole "mind/muscle" thing goin'... that is the only thing I really ever liked about the pullovers was the stretch.  There are many bodybuilders that don't have enough ROM in the shoulders to even think about the exercise.

Getting back to the pullover: I suppose I was taught (back when), the pullover was always thought of as the "rib cage stretcher" and nothing else. Obviously, it has a synergistic effect on all UB musculature, but I've never really bought into that whole rib-cage-stretch routine- regardless of the exercise. Even locking the elbows can irritate the shit out of them. To me, it's just one of those exercises that wouldn't be a regular part of anyones arsenal if there were pain involved. I've seen guys do them on the floor just so that they could perform the exercise and maybe not be too dizzy from the "deep breathing' when it was over... who knows?


My opinions are just that.


Give the straight arm "pulldowns" a try- you do them standing in front of a lat pulldown machine. Obviously, you can't use much weight.


Lemme know what you think.

[ngm21084]

Maybe some varying grips of pulldowns, and maybe some variations of low cable pulley rows. You could even try straight-arm unilateral pulldowns. They kinda have the "feel" of a pullover. You don't have to do them with only one arm, but you can vary between singles and doubles. They aren't easy, and they kill the abs too.

 Hope you understand, my post wasn't intended to put you down. I was sort of being facetious about the fly, but at the same time I swam USA butterfly for over 12 years.

The pullover is an excellent exercise, I'm just not sure it's as necessary as people think. When I read throughout the posts in the "training" forum, there seems to be a recurring theme of shoulder problems/injuries. As a trainer, I run into them more often than not. I think the shoulder injuries and pains in the gym associated with the shoulders are the most common.


I think finding a way to really stretch the lats (without injury) is a great way to get that whole "mind/muscle" thing goin'... that is the only thing I really ever liked about the pullovers was the stretch.  There are many bodybuilders that don't have enough ROM in the shoulders to even think about the exercise.

Getting back to the pullover: I suppose I was taught (back when), the pullover was always thought of as the "rib cage stretcher" and nothing else. Obviously, it has a synergistic effect on all UB musculature, but I've never really bought into that whole rib-cage-stretch routine- regardless of the exercise. Even locking the elbows can irritate the shit out of them. To me, it's just one of those exercises that wouldn't be a regular part of anyones arsenal if there were pain involved. I've seen guys do them on the floor just so that they could perform the exercise and maybe not be too dizzy from the "deep breathing' when it was over... who knows?


My opinions are just that.


Give the straight arm "pulldowns" a try- you do them standing in front of a lat pulldown machine. Obviously, you can't use much weight.


Lemme know what you think.

well as it turns out i used to do standing straight arm pulldowns when i was working out on base but now that im a civvie i work out at my house or whatever hotel im livign out of and i dont have a cable machine...all of my workouts are based around DB as i have a set of ironmaster adjustable DB go up to 130 each plus the adjustable bench an ez curl bar which uses the ironmaster plates plus another 200 pounds of plate weight....so the cable machine is out of the question....do you have any suggestions as what to replace the pullover with??  i am open to suggestions...

[pumpster]

well as it turns out i used to do standing straight arm pulldowns when i was working out on base but now that im a civvie i work out at my house or whatever hotel im livign out of and i dont have a cable machine...all of my workouts are based around DB as i have a set of ironmaster adjustable DB go up to 130 each plus the adjustable bench an ez curl bar which uses the ironmaster plates plus another 200 pounds of plate weight....so the cable machine is out of the question....do you have any suggestions as what to replace the pullover with??  i am open to suggestions...

I own and endorse the Ironmaster stuff, in fact i've helped them with some of their designs. Anyone working out at home should consider their products including the superbench and the lat tower options amongst numerous excellent attachments.

With the superbench and tower you can do lots of pulley work including lying and standing pulley pullovers, and also can do decline DB pullovers, which are even more effective than standard pullovers and less harsh on the shoulders. I've never seen anyone do these other than me doing them, apparently no one's thought of this.

Worth the expense; that stuff will last a lifetime.

Also as i've suggested before, the very best version of pullovers are the machine type, which takes the arms out of the equation. Very easily approximated by using a pulley with ab straps or by using ab straps with a chin bar-you get the full pullover effect but even better by using the ab straps and pulling with the elbows just like using a machine.

As far as shoulder probs, it's usually the very bottom of the ROM behind the head that causes that so while a good stretch is important, avoiding the very bottom is likely to remove most of the shoulder probs, coupled with avoiding momentum that is easy to build up over months of training.

[dyslexic]

I have quite a few pairs of those ab straps.


Can you believe I used to use old terrycloth towels?



That is a fantastic (and creative) idea for a replacement for the pullover. I always drooled over the pullover machine Dorian had in his Dungeon- from the "Blood and Guts" video. I have never been in a gym that has a machine even remotely close to his design. Sad...

[ngm21084]

I own and endorse the Ironmaster stuff, in fact i've helped them with some of their designs. Anyone working out at home should consider their products including the superbench and the lat tower options amongst numerous excellent attachments.

With the superbench and tower you can do lots of pulley work including lying and standing pulley pullovers, and also can do decline DB pullovers, which are even more effective than standard pullovers and less harsh on the shoulders. I've never seen anyone do these other than me doing them, apparently no one's thought of this.

Worth the expense; that stuff will last a lifetime.

Also as i've suggested before, the very best version of pullovers are the machine type, which takes the arms out of the equation. Very easily approximated by using a pulley with ab straps or by using ab straps with a chin bar-you get the full pullover effect but even better by using the ab straps and pulling with the elbows just like using a machine.

As far as shoulder probs, it's usually the very bottom of the ROM behind the head that causes that so while a good stretch is important, avoiding the very bottom is likely to remove most of the shoulder probs, coupled with avoiding momentum that is easy to build up over months of training.

yea i am real pleased with the set of ironmasters i got for the money and the compact size as far as stuff ing the bench in your in the backseat and putting the DB covered in the truck box and can take them anywhere i am...i travel alot for work...ill figure this quick im going to use a light DB pullover and nail the form where it needed to be last time and press forward...but i am still wondering about that dyslexia suggestion of replacing it with???  i dont have the answer unless i bought the tower that connects to the bench but im not right now and i add in my MOBILE pull up that braces itself in the door frame perfect for hotel bathroom doorways...my whole workout while on the road is nothing but DB workouts plus pullups, end of workout pushups (varying angles and hand positions usually will exhaust each angle and hand placement till nothing left therefore hopefully exhausting most of the muscles involved (delts, chest, tris, lower traps)....i know its not a perfect setup and my DB together only weigh up  to 260 while holding both for squats and deads...so im not a beast and wont become one really only lifting those kind of numbers but i do my best and i workout hard and i dont do it cause im a "BB" but cause i like howit feels...

[dyslexic]

NGM, let me clarify (my perception)--I may not have a direct "replacement" for your exercise.

It is my opinion that the majority of the skeletal muscles of the body serve one purpose: to assist the bones involved in whatever articulation is necessary.

So, in essence, if the pullover directly causes the contractions of the pectoralis major, latissimus dorsi, serratus anterior, and the longhead of the triceps-- I would probably try to find other ways to contract these muscles efficiently and moreover, sufficiently.

I do not believe in muscle "shaping"- I believe that the shape, insertion, and origin of a muscle is general, but also specific to your genetic structure. You are either going to 1) contract the muscles, or 2) not contract the muscles. The question is: How many fibers will contract?

Taking this perspective, I suppose my logical answer would state that you would have to find other exercises that either worked these muscles that you are concerned about either synergistically, or worked the muscles in some form of "isolation" (which I also do not believe is 100% possible)--all muscles work in synergy with other muscles. I believe that when the larger (and more popular) muscle groups are worked together, you get what some call 'compound' exercises.


The question then arises: What exercises would work the pecs, lats, serratus and triceps? Maybe none in the same synergistic fashion as the pullover, but there are many that would work them sufficiently using a different plan of attack. I do not for one second believe that a pullover is a 'standout' exercise.

Therein lies my answer. Sorry if I misled you. I am more concerned about you not injuring yourself just because you believe this is the ONLY effective exercise to intensly contract and stretch these particular muscles- for whatever reason (this is where my "butterfly" analogy came in)


I am entirely confident that Pumpster could give an even more in depth answer to what exercises would be sufficient (and why)

Again, this is only my opinion. I try and use logic and science when I work a muscle. That seems to get me from point A to B "as the crow flies"...


Good luck my friend! 

[ngm21084]

NGM, let me clarify (my perception)--I may not have a direct "replacement" for your exercise.

It is my opinion that the majority of the skeletal muscles of the body serve one purpose: to assist the bones involved in whatever articulation is necessary.

So, in essence, if the pullover directly causes the contractions of the pectoralis major, latissimus dorsi, serratus anterior, and the longhead of the triceps-- I would probably try to find other ways to contract these muscles efficiently and moreover, sufficiently.

I do not believe in muscle "shaping"- I believe that the shape, insertion, and origin of a muscle is general, but also specific to your genetic structure. You are either going to 1) contract the muscles, or 2) not contract the muscles. The question is: How many fibers will contract?

Taking this perspective, I suppose my logical answer would state that you would have to find other exercises that either worked these muscles that you are concerned about either synergistically, or worked the muscles in some form of "isolation" (which I also do not believe is 100% possible)--all muscles work in synergy with other muscles. I believe that when the larger (and more popular) muscle groups are worked together, you get what some call 'compound' exercises.


The question then arises: What exercises would work the pecs, lats, serratus and triceps? Maybe none in the same synergistic fashion as the pullover, but there are many that would work them sufficiently using a different plan of attack. I do not for one second believe that a pullover is a 'standout' exercise.

Therein lies my answer. Sorry if I misled you. I am more concerned about you not injuring yourself just because you believe this is the ONLY effective exercise to intensly contract and stretch these particular muscles- for whatever reason (this is where my "butterfly" analogy came in)


I am entirely confident that Pumpster could give an even more in depth answer to what exercises would be sufficient (and why)

Again, this is only my opinion. I try and use logic and science when I work a muscle. That seems to get me from point A to B "as the crow flies"...


Good luck my friend! 

i understand what you were i did think however you had an alternate which is cool...and i understand you dont think its the best plan of attack and i appreciate your concern not being sarcastic either...however i liek the pullover and will continue to do but thank you....thanks though i do appreciate it...